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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2010,21:27) Pierre, What Gene writes is hard to understand. In the case of his post you just wrote he seems to be equating free will to rebellious will. Thus Jesus prayed that He would summit himself, i.e. his rebellious will, and do what God willed instead.
Where do you disagree with that understanding?
Kerwinwhat you think??
Ge 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Ge 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.Ge 2:9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Ge 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are FREE to eat from any tree in the garden;
Ge 2:17 but you must NOT eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely DIE.”I HAVE CAPITALIZED THE KEY WORDS .is this answer your question?
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2010,21:27) Pierre, What Gene writes is hard to understand. In the case of his post you just wrote he seems to be equating free will to rebellious will. Thus Jesus prayed that He would summit himself, i.e. his rebellious will, and do what God willed instead.
Where do you disagree with that understanding?
kerwinthe expression FREE WILL does not stipulate either way ,good or evil,it just says that we can go either way;
this is why God says in the garden of Eden you free to eat anything you want BUT NOT of the tree of good and evil,
FREE = choice 1)eat of it ;;;2) not eat of it = two wills
=====FREE WILL
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,14:35) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 13 2010,20:54) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,13:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,19:39) I think everyone here is partially correct. 
Ed put it very well: “Influence on our will does NOT make it cease to be free to choose!”
There are many factors and influences that we bear in mind when deciding something. So while our wills are under the influence of what God wants from us versus what the world deems acceptable behavior – along with many other factors that weigh in – the bottom line is that we are 100% FREE to choose which path we will take.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding Gene. I'm reading him to say that God partially “CONTROLS” our decision making process – and I believe that to be false. God doesn't want robots, or even partial robots. He wants His children to learn right from wrong, and after doing so, to exercise the FREE WILLS He gave us to choose the right path. IMO
peace and love,
mike
mikeyou right ,but you can not talking health food and at the same time being a drug addict,there is contradiction,
Gene does not believe in freewill because he believes in predeterminism,and this relieve men of is responsibility of his actions,all of this are in contradiction to each other,
because if it is God who make you do it ,we can not be judge for what we can not prevent,(predeterminism)everyone will be saved,
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Hopefully you can see the difference in these two ideas; Terraricca !
Being saved from the electric chair and walking free are two different things.2Peter 3:9 9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Freedom and saved are different! John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjwen you quote do it in full;;2Pe 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.what peter says is that God gives us time with his patient
to allow all men time to find him and come to repentance,
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,Do you think by quoting more than one verse: God won't get his will?
edj
you say;;Hi Terraricca,
Do you think by quoting more than one verse: God won't get his will?
Ed J
It is God will that will be done on earth and in heaven ;no doubt about it;
that s not were the question lays my friend ,
the question lays in ;; are we part of Gods will or are we out of it .
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,18:30) edj you say;;Hi Terraricca,
Do you think by quoting more than one verse: God won't get his will?
Ed J
It is God will that will be done on earth and in heaven ;no doubt about it;
that s not were the question lays my friend ,
the question lays in ;; are we part of Gods will or are we out of it .
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,What does this verse say to you?
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2010,02:25) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,18:30) edj you say;;Hi Terraricca,
Do you think by quoting more than one verse: God won't get his will?
Ed J
It is God will that will be done on earth and in heaven ;no doubt about it;
that s not were the question lays my friend ,
the question lays in ;; are we part of Gods will or are we out of it .
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,What does this verse say to you?
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjyou start to scare me in your way of questioning ,go to your point .
and let me see if i can agree with you
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,20:30) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2010,02:25) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,18:30) edj you say;;Hi Terraricca,
Do you think by quoting more than one verse: God won't get his will?
Ed J
It is God will that will be done on earth and in heaven ;no doubt about it;
that s not were the question lays my friend ,
the question lays in ;; are we part of Gods will or are we out of it .
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,What does this verse say to you?
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjyou start to scare me in your way of questioning ,go to your point .
and let me see if i can agree with you
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,My point is two-fold, first…
1) Do you think it's God's will to save everyone?And if yes…
2) Will God's will be done concerning this?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,14:36) Hi Kerwin, God created US. And God GAVE us the FREEDOM to exercise our wills as we choose to.
The way you word it sounds like me asking if God created the thought I just had in my head. He created me with a brain that is capable of complex thought, but He doesn't “create” my “thoughts”.
Does that make sense?
mike
To All………… Rom1:21-28……….> Because that , when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their (IMAGINATIONS), and their foolish (HEART) was darkened. 22…> Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23..> And changing the glory og the incorruptible God into and (IMAGE) made like to corruptible MAN, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things, 24….>Wherefore GOD also gave (THEM UP) to uncleanness through the Lusts of their (HEARTS), to dishonor there own BODIES between themselves: 25…> Who change the truth of (GOD INTO A LIE) and WORSHIP and SERVE the CREATURE MORE than THE CREATOR, (2 Ths2) who is blessed forever, Amen. 26….> For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27…..> And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lusts one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. 28…….> And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A REPROBATE (MIND), TO DO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE NOT CONVENIENT.“The LORD bless you and KEEP YOU”. Where does he KEEP YOU (IN) Your HEARTS and MINDS.
“LET THIS (MIND) BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO (IN) CHRIST JESUS our Lord. If a person is Led by the Spirit of GOD He is HIS Son, If not He is NON of HIS and works with his (OWN) will and desires and follows that WILL, because that is what is driving him. In fact the carnal mind is an enemy of GOD not subject to the Laws of God neither indeed (can) Be, Man through his own so-called “FREE” WILL which is not FREE at ALL is not subject to GOD nor does GOD'S WILL either. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,14:21) I think if God wants to look into it, He knows every choice I'm ever going to make as long as I will exist. But I haven't made those choices yet from my standpoint, and as they come up, it will be my own free will to choose each and every one of them. There's a big difference between God already knowing the choice I WILL MAKE tomorrow, and Him making the choice for me.
mike
Mike………Can't you see your contradictions here on the one hand You say God already Knows what we will chose to do anyway and then on the other hand you say it is up to us. If it were up to Us then to make that foreknown choice then Where is “FREE” WILL at, it is already programed to happen anyway according to you. You lose site of the FACT it says , GOD (WORKS) (IN) US (BOTH) TO WILL AND DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE. “FREE” WILLER'S are nothing but thief's that try to Steal credit for GODLINESS. Attributing it to themselves , Just as ADAM and EVE tried to do. They were the first “FREE” WILLER'S right?Truth is (NO) WILL is “FREE” at all, all WILLS are (INFLUENCED WILLS). rather GOD'S WILL or MANS WILL, question is which one is going to be DONE that is the question is it our WILL or GOD'S WILL the will be done? WE need to be like Jesus who said Not MAY WILL BUT THY WILL BE DONE. IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 14 2010,05:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2010,14:36) Hi Kerwin, God created US. And God GAVE us the FREEDOM to exercise our wills as we choose to.
The way you word it sounds like me asking if God created the thought I just had in my head. He created me with a brain that is capable of complex thought, but He doesn't “create” my “thoughts”.
Does that make sense?
mike
To All………… Rom1:21-28……….> Because that , when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their (IMAGINATIONS), and their foolish (HEART) was darkened. 22…> Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23..> And changing the glory og the incorruptible God into and (IMAGE) made like to corruptible MAN, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things, 24….>Wherefore GOD also gave (THEM UP) to uncleanness through the Lusts of their (HEARTS), to dishonor there own BODIES between themselves: 25…> Who change the truth of (GOD INTO A LIE) and WORSHIP and SERVE the CREATURE MORE than THE CREATOR, (2 Ths2) who is blessed forever, Amen. 26….> For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27…..> And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lusts one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. 28…….> And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A REPROBATE (MIND), TO DO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE NOT CONVENIENT.“The LORD bless you and KEEP YOU”. Where does he KEEP YOU (IN) Your HEARTS and MINDS.
“LET THIS (MIND) BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO (IN) CHRIST JESUS our Lord. If a person is Led by the Spirit of GOD He is HIS Son, If not He is NON of HIS and works with his (OWN) will and desires and follows that WILL, because that is what is driving him. In fact the carnal mind is an enemy of GOD not subject to the Laws of God neither indeed (can) Be, Man through his own so-called “FREE” WILL which is not FREE at ALL is not subject to GOD nor does GOD'S WILL either. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………gene
gene and mike. Still, the utterance of the Apostle will seem to force us to the conclusion that we are not free agents. Putting an objection, he says, “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hadst thou made me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” 502 A reader may well say, “If, as the potter from the same lump makes some vessels unto honour and some unto dishonour, so also God makes some unto salvation and some to perdition, it follows that we have nothing to do with our salvation or perdition: nor are we free agents.” Let me ask a reader who makes this use of the words, if he can imagine the Apostle contradicting himself. I do not think any one will dare say this. Well, then, if the Apostle does not contradict himself, how does the reader who thus understands him mean to show that |160 the Apostle reasonably finds fault when he blames the Corinthian fornicator, or those who fell into sin and did not repent of the lasciviousness and incontinence which they committed? 503 And how is it that he blesses for their well-doing those whom he praises, as, for instance, the house of Onesiphorus, saying, “The Lord grant mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus: for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: but, when he was in Rome, he sought me diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day.” 504 Surely it is not consistent for the same Apostle to censure the sinner because he deserves blame, and congratulate the well-doer because he deserves praise; and, contrariwise, as if nothing depended on ourselves, maintain that the Creator of the world is responsible for one vessel being unto honour, and another unto dishonour. How can it be sound doctrine that, “We must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad,” 505 if they who have done evil have so conducted themselves because they were created vessels of dishonour, and they who have lived virtuous lives have done that which is right, because originally they were fashioned thereto and were vessels of honour? And again, is not what is said elsewhere inconsistent with the view that it is the fault of the Creator if “one vessel is in honour and another in dishonour,” as the critics infer from what we have quoted? “In a great house,” we read, “there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some unto honour and some unto dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work.” 506 For if he who purges himself becomes a vessel unto honour, while he who carelessly leaves himself unpurged becomes a vessel unto dishonour, the Creator cannot, so far as these words go, be held responsible. For |161 the Creator makes vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour, not originally according to His foreknowledge, since He does not, according to it, condemn or justify beforehand, but He makes them vessels of honour who purge themselves, and them vessels of dishonour who carelessly leave themselves unpurged. So that from antecedent 507 causes for making the vessels to honour and dishonour it arises that one man is to honour and another to dishonour.
21. But if we once admit that there are certain antecedent causes for one vessel being a vessel of honour, and another a vessel of dishonour, what absurdity is there in going back to the mystery of the soul, and understanding that there were antecedent causes for Jacob's being loved and Esau's being hated; as regards Jacob, before his assumption of a body, and as regards Esau, before he was conceived in the womb? At the same time it clearly appears that, so far as the subject nature is concerned, as there is one and the same lump of clay subject to the potter, out of which vessels are made to honour and dishonour: so, though there is one common soul nature subject to God, and, if I may so speak, one lump of rational subsistences, certain antecedent causes have made some men to be unto honour and others to dishonour. And if the Apostle's question conveys a rebuke, “Nay, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? 508 it perhaps teaches that he who has confidence towards God, as a man of faith and good life, would not have the question addressed to him, “Who art thou that repliest against God?” Such an one was Moses; for Moses spake, and God answered him by a Voice,509 and as God answers Moses, so also the holy man answers God. But he who has not this confidence, manifestly, either because he has lost it, or because he investigates these topics not from a love of learning but in a contentious spirit, and therefore says, “Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth |162 his will?” 510 this man would deserve the rebuke, “Nay, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?” 511
22. But to those who introduce different n
atures,512 and use the present passage in support, I have this to say: If they make good their contention that from one lump are made both those who are perishing and those who are being saved, and that the Creator of those who are being saved is the Creator also of those who are perishing, and if He is good Who maketh not only men who are spiritual, but also those who are earthy (for this is a consequence of their doctrine), it is nevertheless possible that a man who in the present time has through certain previous deeds of righteousness become a vessel of honour, may, if he do not the like things, nor such as befits the vessel of honour, become in a different age a vessel of dishonour; as, on the contrary, it is possible that although through causes prior to this life a man has here become a vessel of dishonour, when his faults have been corrected, he may become a vessel of honour in the new creation, sanctified and meet for the Master's use, prepared unto every good work.513 And perhaps the Israelites of our day, if they live unworthily of their high descent, will degenerate, and change as it were from vessels of honour to vessels of dishonour; and many of the Egyptians and Edomites of the present time, whenever they shall bring forth fruit abundantly, will enter the Church of the Lord, being no longer accounted Egyptians and Edomites, but future Israelites; so that, according to this, some through their deliberate choice advance from bad to good, while others fall away from good to bad; and others are kept in goodness, or rise step by step from good to better, and others, again, abide in evil, or, because their wickedness abounds, grow worse and worse.23. And since the Apostle in one place does not pretend that it rests with God whether a man becomes a |163 vessel unto honour or unto dishonour, but puts the whole responsibility upon us, saying, “If then a man purge himself, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified and meet for the master's use, prepared unto every good work”; and elsewhere he does not pretend that it depends upon us but lays the whole responsibility upon God, when he asserts that “the potter hath a right over the clay, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour”,514 and his statements are not contradictory; we must bring them both together, and from the two draw one sound conclusion. The power we have does not compel us to advance in goodness apart from the knowledge of God, nor does the knowledge of God compel us to advance unless we also contribute to the good result; for neither does our power apart from the knowledge of God, and the full use of what is in a worthy sense our “power,” make a man to be unto honour or unto dishonour; nor does God's power alone fashion a man unto honour or dishonour unless He have our choice, inclining to the better or the worse, as a sort of raw material out of which to make the difference. This may suffice for our treatment of Free Will.
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2010,04:52) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,20:30) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 14 2010,02:25) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 13 2010,18:30) edj you say;;Hi Terraricca,
Do you think by quoting more than one verse: God won't get his will?
Ed J
It is God will that will be done on earth and in heaven ;no doubt about it;
that s not were the question lays my friend ,
the question lays in ;; are we part of Gods will or are we out of it .
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,What does this verse say to you?
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjyou start to scare me in your way of questioning ,go to your point .
and let me see if i can agree with you
Pierre
Hi Terraricca,My point is two-fold, first…
1) Do you think it's God's will to save everyone?And if yes…
2) Will God's will be done concerning this?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjno ,not all men will be saved,;Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
this looks like some of those are thrown in the lake of fire;
if not then why is the preaching of the gospel:?why like Paul says restrict yourself to do good if there is no reward and no punishment for the wickets,just eat and drink because tomorrow we die;;;
since Geneses to Revelation it talks about blessings and curse
and judgement ,now you are saying God will save everyone ,???
were is that written, so that all other scriptures can be ignored.??
because if you say it is this way you make a liar out of God.
Pierre
Pierre,
If you look at the ideas Gene is expressing then you will see that he is stating that Jesus is making a voluntary choice to reject submitting to his own will and instead submit to God’s. I expressed the same idea in my last post to Mike Boll by speaking of choosing to follow the temptation to sin vs. the temptation to do right. It is the desires of one’s own heart that determines which you will choose. I believe that is what you call free will.
I also asked everyone, including you; “do you believe God creates our will as he is the Creator?”
Why do you believe God does or does not?
Gene,
Are you arguing that some people are slaves to sin and so suffer the compulsion to sin as they are bound to their unclean spirit? With alcoholics and other addicts obviously suffering from just such a compulsion to sin; I cannot see anyone disagreeing.
Under compulsion or not an addict still chooses to sin. On the other hand Jesus frees his people from that compulsion by giving them the spirit of righteousness to live by. The more mature in Christ an individual is the less they suffer from the compulsion to sin and the more voluntary their choices are. So we know that Jesus spoke truly when he stated The Son will truly set you free from slavery to sin.
Is this not also what you believe?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2010,09:08) Pierre, If you look at the ideas Gene is expressing then you will see that he is stating that Jesus is making a voluntary choice to reject submitting to his own will and instead submit to God’s. I expressed the same idea in my last post to Mike Boll by speaking of choosing to follow the temptation to sin vs. the temptation to do right. It is the desires of one’s own heart that determines which you will choose. I believe that is what you call free will.
I also asked everyone, including you; “do you believe God creates our will as he is the Creator?”
Why do you believe God does or does not?
kerwinyou misted my quote;
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”God as created as free he say so;free means as in Geneses ;
Ge 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Ge 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Ge 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Ge 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
Ge 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”so men was free to eat of the tree or not it was there will to do so,and they were free to use that will ,this is called freewill
no one says that we have a freewill to do anything we want to do like fly,swim in the deep like fish,ect;
freewill is understood within our qualities of nature.
so God is just to hold us accountable for what we do or not do and should have done.
and so his judgement are righteous.
it is Gene predeterminism believes that is the problem.
PierrePierre,
I believe your definition of word “predestination” is in error. Jesus was predestined to be the Messiah before the creation of the world as God knows all things and is all powerful. This in no way contradicts the idea that each person chooses what they do according to the desires of their own hearts.
In chess a master can plan many moves in advance even though he is limited being human. God is not so limited and so can plan an unlimited number of moves taking into account the choices he knows each person will freely make even before they make them.
Like Jesus, Adam had a choice between good and evil even though he chose in ignorance as he was deceived. God tested his heart by giving him that choice and he freely chose to follow the dictates of his own will instead of God’s. God knew what Adam would choose before he tested him but saw that the final results, i.e. the salvation of many, would justify the need for the test. Why else would God even create a tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2010,10:28) Pierre, I believe your definition of word “predestination” is in error. Jesus was predestined to be the Messiah before the creation of the world as God knows all things and is all powerful. This in no way contradicts the idea that each person chooses what they do according to the desires of their own hearts.
In chess a master can plan many moves in advance even though he is limited being human. God is not so limited and so can plan an unlimited number of moves taking into account the choices he knows each person will freely make even before they make them.
Like Jesus, Adam had a choice between good and evil even though he chose in ignorance as he was deceived. God tested his heart by giving him that choice and he freely chose to follow the dictates of his own will instead of God’s. God knew what Adam would choose before he tested him but saw that the final results, i.e. the salvation of many, would justify the need for the test. Why else would God even create a tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
kerwinwith all do respect for your person,why do you not read my comment to you and to other about this topic??
for mention some ;i do not talk about predestination,i talk about predetermination philosophy,this is what Gene believes there is a topic of it look for,
I also clearly point out to you that from the beginning God has created man free and do what pleases him in the garden ,except eating of the tree of good and evil and take care of the garden;
the choice to use his will (Adam) in a free manner only depended on Adam and Eve ,
now the fact that God add foreknowledge does not change anything ,because God did not influence Adam either way,
otherwise God could not have punish him to do what he could not do since he was not free to chose,but Adam was add freewill to do that choice.ignorance has nothing to do with it neither,if you drive on the high way and you do not know the bridge collapsed it would not save you from an accident,if you knew the bridge collapsed and then drive there anyway well then you will have a accident but you in both cases have injuries or death
this are the choices we have ;pick live over death
now the reason;s for God to have made the tree of good and evil is because God is righteousness and men was created with freewill to chose,
also the scriptures do not say that Adam was deceived and that he was ignorant;if you have insight on this please let me see your scriptures like to see them.
Pierre
Pierre,
You are correct that Satan caused me to see the word “predestination” instead of thee word predetermination” which you actually wrote. Please forgive my error.
I agree that God did not influence Adam but Satan did and God permitted Satan to do so. On the other he sent an angel to influence Adam to do right.You are correct that scripture states Adam was not deceived though Eve was. I just have trouble believing Adam sinned voluntarily, as a voluntary sin is unforgivable according to scripture. I discount the possibility that he had a compulsion to sin as that is being a slave to sin. As I find both those to be both odious and unlikely I concluded Adam sinned in ignorance which I wrongly equated with being deceived.
I agree that ignorance is only a migrating circumstance before God that allows you the possibility to repent if you do not test God too long.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2010,13:14) Pierre, You are correct that Satan caused me to see the word “predestination” instead of thee word predetermination” which you actually wrote. Please forgive my error.
I agree that God did not influence Adam but Satan did and God permitted Satan to do so. On the other he sent an angel to influence Adam to do right.You are correct that scripture states Adam was not deceived though Eve was. I just have trouble believing Adam sinned voluntarily, as a voluntary sin is unforgivable according to scripture. I discount the possibility that he had a compulsion to sin as that is being a slave to sin. As I find both those to be both odious and unlikely I concluded Adam sinned in ignorance which I wrongly equated with being deceived.
I agree that ignorance is only a migrating circumstance before God that allows you the possibility to repent if you do not test God too long.
kerwinyou are greatly forgiven with all my hearth.may God keep on blessing you.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2010,02:22) Gene, Are you arguing that some people are slaves to sin and so suffer the compulsion to sin as they are bound to their unclean spirit? With alcoholics and other addicts obviously suffering from just such a compulsion to sin; I cannot see anyone disagreeing.
Under compulsion or not an addict still chooses to sin. On the other hand Jesus frees his people from that compulsion by giving them the spirit of righteousness to live by. The more mature in Christ an individual is the less they suffer from the compulsion to sin and the more voluntary their choices are. So we know that Jesus spoke truly when he stated The Son will truly set you free from slavery to sin.
Is this not also what you believe?
Kerwin………Yes the Change in our behavior is accomplished by GOD Moving in our Lives and His spirit effecting HIS Will (In) us by him working (IN) us. Change does not come from Mans Captivated WILLS in fact we must be set Free from Them. It comes from GOD'S POWER working in our minds and hearts , remember when Jesus told the Apostles after that you have recieved POWER from ON HIGH. We are being CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS< and there is only one creator and that is GOD the FATHER ALONE. TRUE Righteousness is a CREATION it is not a matter of OUR WILLS that are far from "FREE" it is a matter of GOD'S WILL. God the Father is not only the Starter of our salvation But also the finisher of it Just as He was for Jesus. Jesus is our exact example of the Salvation Process. IMOGrace, peace and Love to you and yours…………………….gene
To think that we do not have free will, is not even close to what Scriptures say. If we would not have a free will, all would be saved. However that is not so. There is a Lake of Fire, where all evil men will go. They had a free will either to obey God or not. They did not. God does not want puppets, He wants us to obey out of Love and not force. So to say we have no free will is redicoulous to say the least. Free will is making a choice. We have a choice to go by our will ore Gods will. That Gene and Adam you seem not to understand.
Peace Irene
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