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Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2010,05:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,02:40) EDJ……….I can have an opinion just like everyone else can , By thinking , and this thinking (forms my and your WILL) Just as GOD thinking Forms His WILL also. No one is arguing that we don't have WILLS we all HAVE Have them, The question is are they “FREE” WILLS that is to say they are FREE of (ANY) Influences, That (CAUSE) us to WILL what we want. No one ever said we don't have (Liberty) to express or exercise our influenced WILLS . EDJ , you need to try more not to Lie about what people are saying or IMPLYING it would help you ministry more. IMO peace and love……………………..gene
Hi Gene,Now that you admit we all have wills…
What makes you think influence on them makes them (according to Gene) not free anymore?
EDJ…………Please show where i (EVER) said we do not have WILLS. again you are not representing me honestly.Peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,08:28) Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2010,05:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,02:40) EDJ……….I can have an opinion just like everyone else can , By thinking , and this thinking (forms my and your WILL) Just as GOD thinking Forms His WILL also. No one is arguing that we don't have WILLS we all HAVE Have them, The question is are they “FREE” WILLS that is to say they are FREE of (ANY) Influences, That (CAUSE) us to WILL what we want. No one ever said we don't have (Liberty) to express or exercise our influenced WILLS . EDJ , you need to try more not to Lie about what people are saying or IMPLYING it would help you ministry more. IMO peace and love……………………..gene
Hi Gene,Now that you admit we all have wills…
What makes you think influence on them makes them (according to Gene) not free anymore?
EDJ…………Please show where i (EVER) said we do not have WILLS. again you are not representing me honestly.Peace and love…………………………gene
Hi Gene,You're not representing me accurately!
I never said the you denied we have a will;
I did say the you admitted we do have them.If I say the answer is NOT slow;
That does not mean I said the answer is fast.The point is:
What makes you think having ‘influence’ on our “Wills”
makes them (according to Gene) NOT “Free” anymore?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ………..The very (WORD) “FREE” is why i believe believe it. FREE imply s FREEDOM of ANYTHING. AND A WILL IS NOT A WILL IF IT IS FREE from everything Get it ? Free to exercise that (INFLUENCED) WILL you Have is (NOT) the Same as saying that WILL WORKING (IN YOU) is FREE. GET IT> WE have liberty or freedom to excercise our (influenced) wills .
When you said (NOW) that you admit we have WILLS , was inferring that I did not admit that until (NOW) which is a lie. You could have said I must say your are good at mixing words and intents though.
peace and love………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 14 2010,08:28) EDJ…………Please show where i (EVER) said we do not have WILLS. again you are not representing me honestly.
If we have a will Gene as you say, then we are responsible for it. And with the will we choose.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,02:53) EDJ………..WE have liberty or freedom to excercise our (influenced) wills . peace and love………………………gene
Hi Gene,I'm glad you now agree (with my influence) that we have “Free Will”!
Choose you this day whom ye “will” serve saith the LORD. (Joshua 24:15)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,02:53) FREE imply s FREEDOM of ANYTHING.
Free actually means that we are able to make choices among a given set of options. It doesn't imply you can do anything.e.g., I may not be free to live in a million dollar house or free to travel to Europe because I may not have enough money.
But if i have $800 dollars, I am free to travel to Fiji or Australia, or some other close destination. (From where I live at least).
Also, when my kid asks if he wants to go to the park, I might say no or yes. Once I say yes and we go there, then he is free to use any of the playground facilities. I don't dictate to him which ones he can go on. So my son is free to enjoy the park as he wants, but he is not free to go to the park at anytime.
Freedom is always subject to conditions. When we say free will we assume that we are free to choose among that which is possible to choose. A prisoner cannot freely choose to take a week holiday in Fiji.
This is simple and everyday stuff. I am surprised that I need to explain such things. I just assume that everyone has kind of figured that out by now. Why is this topic even being discussed?
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 15 2010,23:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,02:53) FREE imply s FREEDOM of ANYTHING.
Free actually means that we are able to make choices among a given set of options. It doesn't imply you can do anything.e.g., I may not be free to live in a million dollar house or free to travel to Europe because I may not have enough money.
But if i have $800 dollars, I am free to travel to Fiji or Australia, or some other close destination. (From where I live at least).
Also, when my kid asks if he wants to go to the park, I might say no or yes. Once I say yes and we go there, then he is free to use any of the playground facilities. I don't dictate to him which ones he can go on. So my son is free to enjoy the park as he wants, but he is not free to go to the park at anytime.
Freedom is always subject to conditions. When we say free will we assume that we are free to choose among that which is possible to choose. A prisoner cannot freely choose to take a week holiday in Fiji.
This is simple and everyday stuff. I am surprised that I need to explain such things. I just assume that everyone has kind of figured that out by now. Why is this topic even being discussed?
t8amen
Pierre
T8…….. You are right you do have freedom to chose , but that does not mean your WILL (ITSELF) is Free because it is based on certain options that are already (IN) your mind, and the one option that (INFLUENCES) You the MOST (IS) the OPTION YOU WILL CHOSE every time you make your Choices. YOU are caused to chose it by those (INFLUENCES) so to say your WILL (ITSELF) is FREE is a false statement, you mean you have freedom to exercise you captivated WILL. “HE LED CAPTIVES , CAPTIVE” we are held captive by what ever spirit (intellects) is captivating us rather the spirit of the world or the spirit of God. We through the Spirit of GOD chose Gods WILL to DO> But be assured it is an INFLUENCED WILL at Work> “FOR GOD WORK (IN) US BOTH TO (WILL) and do of (HIS) good pleasure.”
Peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Gene.
Are you free to choose to sin or to be led by the Spirit?
If so, then that is free will right there.
You are free to do either because they are both options for you.
If we are not free to choose either, then neither can be we held accountable for doing either and that notion renders a lot of scripture as useless because much scripture requires us to choose rightly.T8………No I am not free to Sin because the Spirit (causes me to think differently) I would never be “FREE” to SIN” that would go against my New Nature i recieved from GOD, It Chooses by GRACE (influencing on the Heart by GOD) to chose different. “FOR HE (GOD) WORKS (IN) ME TO BOTH (WILL) AND DO OF HOS GOOD PLEASURE> I am led captive by a new and Living Way.
T8……GOD has always commanded us all to do what is right , but who has, because all have sinned, man cannot chose his own fate left alone . “for it is not within a man to direct his paths”. and again “the way of peace they have Not known”. and again we are told man stumbles and gropes at the wall. and again If the lite in you be darkness how grate is that darkness. The mind we are born with is at eminent with GOD (IT) that carnal mind , is (NOT) subject to the laws of GOD neither indeed can be, It is hopeless to think we can achieve by our Own captivated Wills.
T8……….A WILL can NOT be a WILL if It is NOT (INFLUENCED)> to say possesses a “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON, It simply can not be a WILL if IT is FREE of everything. What many do is mistake our (LIBERTY TO EXERCISE) OUR CAPTIVATED OR INFLUENCED WILLS WITH US POSSESSING A “FREE” WILL (IN) US. Do you see my point brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 19 2010,12:03) T8………No I am not free to Sin because the Spirit (causes me to think differently) I would never be “FREE” to SIN” that would go against my New Nature i recieved from GOD,
Gene, are you not aware that even though we can be led by the Spirit and we can also choose to do that which our flesh desires.Somewhere between the Spirit and the flesh are the decisions we make. We are being influenced by both, and the one we choose to obey forms our destiny.
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,So it is clear that which of these we choose will also determine whether we live or not. And the verse implies that the decision lies with us and is not outside of our ability to choose.
Confirmation that it is up to us to choose is in the following scripture:
Galatians 5:16
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 19 2010,12:03) T8……….A WILL can NOT be a WILL if It is NOT (INFLUENCED)> to say possesses a “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON, It simply can not be a WILL if IT is FREE of everything. What many do is mistake our (LIBERTY TO EXERCISE) OUR CAPTIVATED OR INFLUENCED WILLS WITH US POSSESSING A “FREE” WILL (IN) US. Do you see my point brother.
Gene.We have two natures. Divine or flesh. Our will is not of either nature. Our natures influence us, but our will is free to choose which influence wins. Simple as that.
e.g., my flesh nature might desire to take drugs, but my will may choose to not take drugs because of the consequences.
I would agree with you if we only had flesh nature. Then we would only have influences that dictate that we sin. But that is not the case. God has given us a way to be able to not give in to temptations by always providing a way out. It is our choice.
After all the Spirit convicts and empowers us so that we are not at the complete mercy of the flesh.
T8……….Do you (really) believe GOD Changes our Hearts and therefore Changes our Desires and or WILLS?. Or do you think He gets our (Permission) to Change us first by asking our own Carmel minds if it is OK to? Do you (really) believe He is the Potter and we the Clay, and He does with us as He so choses?. I mean do you (really) believe that T8?
You saying our will is not of one or the other nature is wrong because our will are (Caused and Driven) by those natures, either Carnal or Spiritual both drive our desires and therefore create our wills a will is a driven desire caused by our natures. GOD must change our Nature in order to Change our Wills and desires. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 21 2010,00:57) T8……….Do you (really) believe GOD Changes our Hearts and therefore Changes our Desires and or WILLS?. Or do you think He gets our (Permission) to Change us first by asking our own Carmel minds if it is OK to? Do you (really) believe He is the Potter and we the Clay, and He does with us as He so choses?. I mean do you (really) believe that T8?
You appear to teach that our will is part of our nature.
But tell me this, when we cast of the old nature completely,do we get a new will to boot, or do we will still have the same will and choice, but are no longer burdened by the body of death and sin?Gene. You are teaching that will is the product of nature.
Yet Christ who being in the form of God emptied himself and came in the form of man.Your idea suggests that Christ's will was the result of either nature.
So his divine nature willed to empty himself and his flesh nature willed to obey God.I don't hold to your thinking. I believe that will is something we are given regardless of what nature we may possess.
What God has done for us to give us a fighting chance is to counter the flesh with the Spirit. This way, we have a choice and not just the choice to obey the flesh.Gene,
You bascially agree with t8
Your just debating now for the sake of debate.I said from the beginning this was just a disagreement of the definition of the term “freewill”
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 28 2010,07:35) Gene,
You bascially agree with t8
Your just debating now for the sake of debate.I said from the beginning this was just a disagreement of the definition of the term “freewill”
Hi SF,Gene has his own meanings for words.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgSF………There exist no such thing as a will that is “FREEWILL” that is a OXYMORON. People like T8, EDJ, and others get confused with . They think that because GOD allows us to exercise our (captivated wills) or heavily (influenced wills) that equates to us (HAVING) A WILL THAT IS “FREE: (IN) US. Nothing could be further from the truth. IMO
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 30 2010,03:20) SF………There exist no such thing as a will that is “FREEWILL” that is a OXYMORON. People like T8, EDJ, and others get confused with . They think that because GOD allows us to exercise our (captivated wills) or heavily (influenced wills) that equates to us (HAVING) A WILL THAT IS “FREE: (IN) US. Nothing could be further from the truth. IMO peace and love…………………………gene
Amen to that post brother Gene. I fully endorse it. If God is omniscient, all powerful and sovereign there can not be any free will at all. Free will of man makes God impotent and weak who can not have control over his creation. Biblical concepts of God are so ambigous that many Christians are often get fumbled and confused over its doctrines.Peace and love
AdamAdam…………Amen to that post brother, that is exactly what people with “FREE WILL” belief do, this ideology is the very down fall of Man, it pits man against GOD by causing him to think he is in charge and “FREE” to do and think what ever He wants to. There is only ONE GOD and ONE WILL that will be done all other WILLS must yield to that ONE WILL.
Peace and love to you and yours Adam…………………………………gene
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