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LU
terraricca,
Jesus is given the task because HE is the Father’s power to carry out the task. He always acts according to the Father’s will and the Father always carries out His will through His power-His own Son.The Father gives the vision, the Son carries it out. This is interdependence. The Father does not work apart from the Son, but instead, He works through the Son…hence the Son IS the power the Father works through. The Son IS the power of the Father.
Does the Father work apart from the Son’s cooperation? No.
Jesus said:
John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.There is nothing that the Father does that is done without the Son. Jesus said whatever He sees the Father do, He is the one doing it. The Son carries out the vision of the Father. Once again, interdependence.
who his the creator master God ,who his the life giver GOD the father ,who run all of creation ? the Father and God ;
who obey to the God/father/creator of all things ? all of creation no exception, even the son ,
God always works with the righteous for he is a righteous God
@t8
You missed my point…the Son is the power of God, not overpowered by God. I am using different words to help you get what I meant when I answered your question. You made the wrong conclusion by concluding that because I said the Son was not the power over God then He was the power less than God and that is NOT the correct conclusion. He is the power OF God. The power OF God would obviously not be the power OVER God, now would it??Read and learn!
LIGHTENUP……..IF Jesus was a born human or in your case a “MORPHED” human being then why did he say he was a son of man around 80 times. He became a spritual son of God at the JORDAN river when he was baptised by John and at that day, he was begotten of God the Father, when the voice of God said,” thou art my son , “THIS DAY” I have begotten you.
He was not a spritually a begotten son until he recieved the holy spirit on “that” day. He was simply a son of man brought forth by a normal birth process even though God did manipulate the DNA to look like the person scripture prophesied him to look like. Your view of Jesus existibg as an other God is completely wrong, Jesus did not exist untill his berth on this earth.
Another point of your logic being wrong is, this idea the some how saying that Jesus was different because he was made in the “image” of God makes him different then us, does scripture not clearly say that we also are made in the “image” of God? Are we also Gods, like you assume Jesus is, who here can say they are A God, can you ! Can anyone here say that?
peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene
Anastas, maturity is a virtue but it takes time. How old are you anyway and how long have you felt like you have walked with the Lord?
God is not defined by whether or not He is called God by someone. God is a living perfect sentient being that has existed before anything else. He doesn’t need to have subjects to be the true God. Even a false god can be god unto himself, some people are their own gods. Also, wisdom was possessed by God, not formed by God. And, God the Father did not create anything apart from the Son. You think He could have but you do not have evidence of that. The Bible testifies against that notion when it says that all things were made by the Word of God which is Jesus, the wisdom and power of God which God possessed BEFORE His works of old.
Prov 8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. -Solomon as inspired by holy spirit.@terrarica
you said:
who his the creator master God ,who his the life giver GOD the father ,who run all of creation ?
Your English is not correct and proper English words and punctuation are needed to convey your question more clearly. If you are interested in truth, show us by using English words truthfully. The word ‘his’ never means ‘is’ in the English language. Now, let me see if truth is important to you and then ask your questions again.
@GeneBalthrop
I have asked you this more than once in another thread but you do not seem to comprehend it. I ask again…would you like to have a closed discussion with me about my beliefs regarding these spiritual matters? I think that having one thread with responses to your questions in it, would be more fruitful than having them interspersed throughout the forum. What do you say? If you would agree to that, then I will set that up and give you a link to that discussion thread. We can discuss the matters which you have asked me to address, over there.miia,
It sounds like we are agreeing.
From that when some claim Scripture declare Jesus is the one true God because scripture calls him a god their case is flawed as the word god has multiple meanings.
The same is true of those that think the angels are the same kind of being as God because God calls them gods.
The source of the meaning of the word is determined by context and not by just the use of the word god.
That is why I conclude Deuteronomy 10:16-17 is where God called human being gods and the reason he called them gods is that he accepts those worshipers that seek to be like him in true righteousness and holiness.
Kerwin….. that is your error, beleving the wod God has multiple meanings. The word God only has one meaning even in the Hebrew language it Exists as one even though it is expressed in a “uni-plural form. What do i mean by that is this even though the LORD our God is one, he has seven spirits that compose him, who is the one and only true God, for us that believe that is.
There is not a single that says that the word God takes on different meanings, that simply is your rendition oftge word God, but no scripture agrees with you imo.
Jeff Benner a Hebrew scholar, said the original pictorial language used by the ancient Hebrews show a symbol of an Ox head, and beside it a symbol of a staff leaning toward the ox head . This is what incoprated thecomplete meaning of the word God. The simple meaning was this, the “power” (ox head) they leaned on and trusted for support (the symbol of the sheppards staff).
So condencing that we get The word God who is “the power”, we trust and lean on for guidence”. Just that simple, it does not have an other meaning at all. If you have a power you trust in and lean on totally above all others, then that is your God.
There are not multi layer of Gods as you supose there are. That is called polytheism, we are explicitly told “you shall have no other God besides Me, so if my God tells me i should not have any other GOD’S BESIDES HIM, do ypu honestly think i could go to him and say well God you know there are all kinds ofother God’s, and all kind of meanings to the word God, so i have an excuse to form other images of Gods, as i see fit. I really do not think that will work with him. I believe he would tell you “you IDOLATAR, GO YOUR WAY and find somemore God’s them, and while you are at it worship them, after all you say they are God’s, let them help you in your times of need.
Kerwin you are breaking the very first commandment God gave to Israel, and all true believers and you don’t even realize it.
While any thing can be a God to any one, the meaning of the word never changes it does not have all kind of different meanings, no matter what those false teachers have told you here.
I have only “one” true God. And I believe my lord and better my brother Jesus has “only” one also.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
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Lightenup……set it up and let me know. I hope this is not going to be a Catholic homousious run around ofthe trinity. I have completely disproven that doctrine over and over. I have even had an article printed in tge acts magazine years ago about the subject. But i am willing to discuss it with you if you will promise to have a truly open mind about it.
peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
hi Kerwin, I agree a hundred percent with you, and also a hundred percent with Gene. Does that make sense? No. Maybe to some (:
LU
Your English is not correct and proper English words and punctuation are needed to convey your question more clearly. If you are interested in truth, show us by using English words truthfully. The word ‘his’ never means ‘is’ in the English language. Now, let me see if truth is important to you and then ask your questions again.
the old way is back in you ;go your own way tired from useless discussion ,i do not need the answers I know the answers
Terraricca,
The word ‘his’ never means ‘is’ in the English language. When the wise man is shown his error, he no longer continues in his error. When a fool is shown his error, he foolishly continues making his error and even arrogantly so. You choose. If you continue in your error, sadly the love of truth is not in you or your memory is fading.
LU
you know that and I know that so it is my typo mistake but you really knew this already for this you have corrected me 2 or 4 years ago ;but you use it for not answering my questions ;but it does not matter ;i really do know where you stand ,with scriptures and the truth of it ,
Lightenup
The Bible testifies against that notion when it says that all things were made by the Word of God which is Jesus, the wisdom and power of God which God possessed BEFORE His works of old.
Yes God did possess him before his works of old, for God created all things through Christ. Of course when it says “all” its qualified. Just as when Paul said “all things are put in subjection to him, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things under him”. In the same way, all here shows the world excluding the Father who created through Christ.
Now, you said “possessed” which is true in a sense but doesnt fully describe the original word “kana” or “qanah”. Does your bible have footnotes? If so it ll have “formed, or “fashioned”, or “produced” or similar renderings. Other translations use these as the prominent translation:
“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; NIV
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. New living translation
The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. Holman christian standard bible
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.” aramaic bible in plain english
It is said by much wiser men than myself that kana is more closely aligned to “getting” or “acquiring” over outright ownership.
If that id the case then God created/begot the Son, and in the process giving proof that The Father creates on his own in the process. This idea is reinforced in the next couple lines where wisdom “was set up” and “brought forth”.
Whether you accept proof is another matter.
As for your question, spiritual maturity is indeed virtuous, but sometimes this maturity is not maturity but rather disguised conceit. Brother Paul said he did not take his salvation for granted nor assume his salvation lest he become complacent. I have always believed, feeling God’s presence, but i did not run the race to win until i was baptized nearly 3 years ago. True disciples seeks out truth even if its difficult, for “narrow is the gate and few shall enter therein”.
Terrarica
God does not depend on his created things ;
Ge 6:5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Ge 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.
Ge 6:7 So the LORD said, “””“I will wipe mankind, whom I have created,””” from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.
we are here for Noah was a righteous man ;so get your act together and start to learn the truth ,in scriptures not in your imagination
Im sorry if you misunderstood me. I did not say God was dependant on anyone. I was using that as a example to show how ridiculous the idea is that God (the Father) was dependant on the Son to create. God depends on no one but chose to create the worlds through his Son, not required.
@Anastas
Yes I realize that Prov 8:22 is translated in several different ways. Only one way was meant. I believe that ‘possessed’ is more consistent with the wisdom of God rather than acquired or created. In Prov 8 after v. 22 scholars often suggest that it could be referring to Jesus in a figurative way. The Jews think it is the torah. We really need other scriptures found elsewhere to support the idea as to whether or not Jesus was created or was always possessed of God, the Father. At least we both believe that Jesus was there before creation.Proverbs speaks about wisdom regarding creation in chapter 3, also. Later in Prov 24:3 wisdom builds a house. Here I will put the different versions of Prov 8 that you listed and after that the Prov 3 verse in the same version and also the Prov 24:3 verse to see if there is any correlation:
Prov 8:22“The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; NIV
Prov 3:19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth’s foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;NIV
Prov 24:3 By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established;NIVProv 8:22“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. New living translation
Prov 3:19 By wisdom the LORD founded the earth; by understanding he created the heavens.NLT
Prov 24:3 A house is built by wisdom and becomes strong through good sense.NLTProv 8:22The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago. Holman Christian Standard Bible
Prov 3:19 The LORD founded the earth by wisdom and established the heavens by understanding. Holman Christian Standard Bible
Prov 24:3 A house is built by wisdom, and it is established by understanding; Holman Christian Standard BibleProv 8:22“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.” Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Prov 3:19 Lord Jehovah in his wisdom laid the foundations of the Earth and the Heavens were established by his understanding; Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Prov 24:3 A house is built by wisdom and by understanding it is entirely put in good order.Aramaic Bible in Plain EnglishSo, if wisdom is a person in Prov 8:22+, then the wisdom in Prov 3:19 and Prov 24:3 would be a person and understanding would be yet another person. All of these verses are written by the same author. It seems more likely that the wisdom in both verses in Prov 8 and Prov 3, is the wisdom of God personified and not another person at all and it is wisdom in general in Prov 24:3. What do you think?
Someone who speaks Aramaic and goes to an Aramaic speaking church once told me that they believe that the wisdom in Prov 8:22 refers to the plan of the Messiah. The ‘plan’ that God was to bring a Messiah is what was ‘created.’
Also, the term for beget does not mean ‘create.’ The two terms do not have the same meaning.
So you were baptized 3 years ago. What type of church were you baptized in? Are you in your early 20s? I have several sons in their 20s.
Take care.
anastas
Im sorry if you misunderstood me. I did not say God was dependant on anyone. I was using that as a example to show how ridiculous the idea is that God (the Father) was dependant on the Son to create. God depends on no one but chose to create the worlds through his Son, not required.
yes ,yes that is correct agree ;Lu seem lost into her mind for years and years
@t8
You missed my point…the Son is the power of God, not overpowered by God. I am using different words to help you get what I meant when I answered your question. You made the wrong conclusion by concluding that because I said the Son was not the power over God then He was the power less than God and that is NOT the correct conclusion. He is the power OF God. The power OF God would obviously not be the power OVER God, now would it??Read and learn!
You still missed the point. I am not addressing anything else but your point below, so please don’t add in other thing you said. I am not addressing other things you said, only the below point:
Does Jesus have power OVER YOU? If so, according to what you wrote, then He is your god. Why not just admit it. Or would you say that Jesus does not have power over you. Do you have power over Jesus???
Again, just in case you need a reminder, I am not saying this has anything to do with Jesus being the power of God or not. The point is you say and lead terraricca to the following. I will quote your words, and answer or think out loud as you expected him to answer or think:
- “Does Jesus have power over you”– You obviously thought yes, Jesus has power over terraricca.
- “If so, according to what you wrote, then He is your god.” – Yes if terraricca wrote that anyone who has power over you is a god, then Jesus by that definition must be God or a god to him. Therefore you led him to admit that Jesus is God because he has power over him. You then said:
- “Why not just admit it.” – Admit what? Admit that Jesus is God because he has power over us/him? Thus you affirm to terraricca that Jesus is God because Jesus has power over us/him. This is what you wanted him to realise right?
Okay, so far so good (I hope). So now understand what I pointed out to you, that Jesus doesn’t have power over the Father while the Father has power over him. So by your own craftiness, you have inadvertently affirmed that the Father is the Most High God and Jesus is not because he does not have power over the Father as you admit, thus he is not the God of all, only the Father is.
Therefor by your own reasoning you ultimately actually proved yourself wrong. Jesus is not YHWH who is the Most High God. He is instead second in command after God. In reality, he is the one that God made Lord right?
But wait I hear you say. In your defense you are thinking, but it was terraricca’s definition, not mine. However, you still ask him to admit that Jesus is God based on his own argument. Thus you ask him to believe Jesus is God based on a wrong assumption if you believe his assumption is wrong that is.
So either way you lose because it shows how hell-bent you are with Jesus being God, that you will resort to making people believe it even based on wrong assumptions if necessary. And if you believe he was right, that Jesus is God because he has power over us, then I proved to you that Jesus does not have power over all. That in actual fact, Jesus was made Lord by God instead.
Now take Joseph and Pharaoh. Was Joseph Pharaoh? No. But Pharaoh made Joseph Lord over all he had.Even though he was Lord, the position that Pharaoh gave him did not make him Lord over Pharaoh right? Likewise, Jesus is not God LU, he was made Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Acts 2:36
Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”I am probably not going to explain this further for you. I don’t want to spend anymore time on it. Either understand the point I make or admit it is above your head and move on please. Suffice to say, whatever your view about Jesus being God because he has power over us, you lose no matter which way you steer this conversation on my point because you are wrong whether you agree with terraricca’s point or not.
Do yourself and others a favour and admit your failure and move on please.
Gene,
Kerwin….. that is your error, beleving the wod God has multiple meanings. The word God only has one meaning even in the Hebrew language it Exists as one even though it is expressed in a “uni-plural form. What do i mean by that is this even though the LORD our God is one, he has seven spirits that compose him, who is the one and only true God, for us that believe that is.
The translators of many if not all translations of Scripture agree with me. For example the “KLV” translates it to a number of words as can be seen from the following quote of information about the elohim from the Blue Letter Bible’s site.
The KJV translates Strongs H430 in the following manner: God (2,346x), god (244x), judge (5x), GOD (1x), goddess (2x), great (2x), mighty (2x), angels (1x), exceeding (1x), God-ward (with H4136) (1x), godly (1x).
I do not know why you are arguing as you agreed with me on it already.
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