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Quote (kejonn @ May 15 2010,11:54) BD, What is your opinion on Hezbollah and Hamas?
Please be more specific, what is your complaint or approval of them?Quote (kejonn @ May 15 2010,13:29) No complaints, just wondering if you feel they are positive representatives of the Muslim faith.
Only individuals can be held innocent or guilty based upon their own behavioursOK, as I thought.
As a Christian, I condemned the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church, a group. I still do (hehe) but I was not afraid to do so as a Christian.
That being said, Hamas' charter calls for the replacement of Israel and Palestinian territories with an Islamic Palestinian state. This would mean that the Jews would have to either be tossed out, converted, or killed. This is the organization's charter, and as such should be addressed.
Hezbollah, as a group, calls for the destruction of Israel. Again, such an endeavor should be opposed if one calls themsef part of the “religion of peace”.
Your unwillingness to do so was expected, and you did not let me down. I do not know if it is fear that drives other Muslims to not speak out against these organizations, or the possible fact that the words of the Koran do indeed support the destruction of other human beings as a means of doing away with those who would not convert to Islam. The more this is exposed, the more people will realize that Islam is not the “religion of peace” at all.
Quote (kejonn @ May 15 2010,22:46) OK, as I thought. As a Christian, I condemned the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church, a group. I still do (hehe) but I was not afraid to do so as a Christian.
That being said, Hamas' charter calls for the replacement of Israel and Palestinian territories with an Islamic Palestinian state. This would mean that the Jews would have to either be tossed out, converted, or killed. This is the organization's charter, and as such should be addressed.
Hezbollah, as a group, calls for the destruction of Israel. Again, such an endeavor should be opposed if one calls themsef part of the “religion of peace”.
Your unwillingness to do so was expected, and you did not let me down. I do not know if it is fear that drives other Muslims to not speak out against these organizations, or the possible fact that the words of the Koran do indeed support the destruction of other human beings as a means of doing away with those who would not convert to Islam. The more this is exposed, the more people will realize that Islam is not the “religion of peace” at all.
Kejonn,You did not ask me did I agree with any specific thing and I am not familiar with the organizations you mentioned therefore why would I blindly accuse them of doing something wrong?
However, I just read up a little on Hamas and what they are agains is Israeli occupation of land that belongs to the palestinians which is the same thing that Jews against Zionism believe.
Hezbollah seems to be more agressive. I do not condone any acts of non-defensive agression.
all acts of violence against innocent noncombatants is condemned and should be on either side of a conflict.
Quran 5:82 – Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud.
Would not this verse be implying that the Jews are indeed enemies?
Oh, and I really find it hard to believe you are unfamiliar with Hamas and Hezbollah. They are among the most well know Islamic organizations in the world, mentioned almost weekly in the news.
Quote (kejonn @ May 16 2010,04:39) Oh, and I really find it hard to believe you are unfamiliar with Hamas and Hezbollah. They are among the most well know Islamic organizations in the world, mentioned almost weekly in the news.
Actually, I was being quite honest. I am not into politics to the extent of knowing the details about any specific groups. I have heard the names and have heard the reports from news channels about many organizations but as I have said I can only make judgements after I know the details. Isn't that fair?Sometimes we make assumptions and history has shown that those assumptions were not true at all.
Sometimes there are all sorts of complications which cloud our understanding for instance since I am American I would be biased from that point alone imagine if I was a Palestenian American or a Jewish American then I would be biased still further.
Being a Black American male with knowledge of Slavery of his people I would be further biased.
So you have many facets of course I would not agree that Israel was given land that other people already owned and lived on and American Indian would agree with that.
Now because of the fact that everybody is where they are now at this point I would be in favor of there being a complete country based upon the votes of the people or if they choose to remain seperate then that is fine as well. The land was taken illegally but so was every other land.
Theodor Herzl, the Founder of Zionism
——————————————————————————–
Theodor HerzlThe term “Zionism” was first introduced in 1893 by Nathan Birmbaum, but Theodor Herzl, an Austrian Jew born to a prosperous, emancipated Budapest family, is recognized as the founder of the Zionist idealogy when he published his book in 1896, “The Jewish State”, where he declared that the cure for anti-semitism was the establishment of a Jewish state. As he saw it, the best place to establish this state was in Palestine.
While Herzl claimed that the establishment of a “Jewish” state would cure anti-Semitism, he also promoted anti-Semitism to further his cause.
Herzl stated in his diary:
“It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)
Benny Morris (the Israeli Historian), described how Herzl foresaw how anti-Semitism could be “HARNESSED” for the realization of Zionism. He stated:
“Herzl regarded Zionism's triumph as inevitable, not only because life in Europe was ever more untenable for Jews, but also because it was in Europe's interests to rid the Jews and relieved of anti-Semitism: The European political establishment would eventually be persuaded to promote Zionism. Herzl recognized that anti-Semitism would be HARNESSED to his own–Zionist-purposes.” (Righteous Victims, p. 21)
Quote (kejonn @ May 16 2010,04:31) Quran 5:82 – Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. Would not this verse be implying that the Jews are indeed enemies?
Throughout history Jews have lived in peace in Islamic countries. They even migrated to these countries when persecuted in Christian countries.That was then, this is now. Do you deny that much of the Arab Muslim countries — as a whole — would like to see Israel destroyed?
Quote (kejonn @ May 16 2010,07:02) That was then, this is now. Do you deny that much of the Arab Muslim countries — as a whole — would like to see Israel destroyed?
Yes, I deny such a thing. It would not be very difficult if all the Arab Muslim countries wanted Israel destroyed.There are even ten arabs in Israel's parliment
Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia to name a few have no interest in destroying Israel and then there is Dubai and many , many more.
Quote (kejonn @ May 16 2010,10:42) Thanks for the info. Knowing the goals of Hamas and Hezbollah, do you oppose them?
If their goals are of wanton destruction I say yes. I would oppose that regardless of the organization.If the main goal is to live in peace I support their goal.
However, there is no doubt whatsoever that the state of Israel was formed through force but I never look at world events in a way in which I assume what the best position would be because as I have pointed out some of these things are purposely antagonized to create a completely different effect.
Rabbi Eliezer says: “All the years that the
Jews lived in Egypt they resided with security,
confidence and rest, until Nun, who was a
descedant of Ephraim and father of Joshua,
came and said to them: ‘The Holy One Blessed
Be He revealed Himself to me to take you out
of Egypt’. The sons of Ephraim, with pride
in their hearts because of their descent from
royalty and heroism in war, took their women
and children and left Egypt. The Egyptians
pursued them and killed 200,000, all of whom
were strong men, as it is written (Psalms
78:9): ‘The sons of Ephraim, armed archers,
retreated on the day of battle. They did not
keep the covenant of G d and they refused to
follow His Torah’”. [Pirkei DeRabbi Eliezer
chapter 47].It is explained in our sacred writings that
all the Jews suffered afterwards the great
and terrible enslavement with hard decrees
because they did not protest against the Sons
of Ephraim although they did not join them.
———————————–This is the situation:
The Holy One, Blessed be He said: “In this
world you were redeemed through people – in
Egypt through Moses and Aharon; in the
days of Sisera through Deborah and Barak;and from the Midianites by the Judges, and
because they were human beings you were
enslaved again. But in the Future to Come I
Myself will redeem you, and you will not be
subjugated anymore. As it is written (Isaiah
45:17): “The Jewish People is redeemed by
G-d for an everlasting redemption”. [Midrash
Yalkut, paragraph 577].Thanks BD. I cannot see the goal of living in peace to be reconcilable with seeking the destruction of a people, however.
Quote (kejonn @ May 19 2010,12:41) Thanks BD. I cannot see the goal of living in peace to be reconcilable with seeking the destruction of a people, however.
People generally do not seek the destruction of people as much as systems or paradigms
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