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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 05 2007,23:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 05 2007,07:32) I was simply refering to Jesus Prophesys for the last days!
********************WJ – oh, I know. I was just adding an interesting note on persecution as it related to the Trinity dogma and it's beginnings….
Not3in1Study your church history. The trinity didnt start with the Roman Catholics.
The trinity was around in the first century!
WJ,Enlighten me would you.
Nicene Creed
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[edit] The original Nicene Creed of 325
The original Nicene Creed was first adopted in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea. At that time, the text ended after the words “We believe in the Holy Spirit”, after which an anathema was added.[1]
The Coptic Church has the tradition that the original creed was authored by Athanasius. F.J.A. Hort and Adolf Harnack argued that the Nicene creed was the local creed of Caesarea brought to the council by Eusebius of Caesarea. J.N.D. Kelly sees as its basis a baptismal creed of the Syro-Phoenician family, related to (but not dependent on) the creed cited by Cyril of Jerusalem and to the creed of Eusebius.
Soon after the Council of Nicaea, new formulas of faith were composed, most of them variations of the Nicene Symbol, to counter new phases of Arianism. The Catholic Encyclopedia identifies at least four before the Council of Sardica (341), where a new form was presented and inserted in the Acts of the Council, though it was not agreed on.As you can see the “creed” was “law” in 325 AD. It was around two centures before? And they didn't get around to making it law until 325AD?
This isn't a trick question I'd just like to know?
Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,07:42) Hi Not3in1, Paul says you have to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. 4 verses later he tells us who that Lord is, YHWH. So I hope that is your confession.
As for coerced repentance, YHWH did it to Israel all the time. It is terrifying to me, but it is still better for YHWH to afflict us in this life so as to bring us to repentance, than for us to know his wrath on the day of judgment.
Tim
Hi Tim2:Are you indicating that a person who doesn't believe that Jesus is YHWH will not be saved?
John 3:16-18 states: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned…”.
Romans 10:8-9 states: “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”.
Romans 8:1 states: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life”. (1 John 5:9-12)
“Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God”. (1 John 4:13-15)
I know that my Father dwells within me by his Spirit, and so, you cannot coerce me with your doctrine, but take care that you do not lead someone astray by what you teach by telling them unless they believe what you are teaching that they won't be saved.
God Bless
Hi 94,
I do not think you should worry too much.
Only they cannot see that the emperor is wearing no clothes.by Hans Christian Andersen (1805-75)
adapted by Stephen Corrin in Stories for Seven-Year-Olds. London 1964Many years ago there lived an Emperor who was so exceedingly fond of fine new clothes that he spent vast sums of money on dress. To him clothes meant more than anything else in the world. He took no interest in his army, nor did he care to go to the theatre, or to drive about in his state coach, unless it was to display his new clothes. He had different robes for every single hour of the day.
In the great city where he lived life was gay and strangers were always coming and going. Everyone knew about the Emperor's passion for clothes.
Now one fine day two swindlers, calling themselves weavers, arrived. They declared that they could make the most magnificent cloth that one could imagine; cloth of most beautiful colours and elaborate patterns. Not only was the material so beautiful, but the clothes made from it had the special power of being invisible to everyone who was stupid or not fit. for his post.
“What a splendid idea,” thought the Emperor. “What useful clothes to have. If I had such a suit of clothes I could know at once which of my people is stupid or unfit for his post.”
So the Emperor gave the swindlers large sums of money and the two weavers set up their looms in the palace. They demanded the finest thread of the best silk and the finest gold and they pretended to work at their looms. But they put nothing on the looms. The frames stood empty. The silk and gold thread they stuffed into their bags. So they sat pretending to weave, and continued to work at the empty loom till late into the night. Night after night they went home with their money and their bags full of the finest silk and gold thread. Day after day they pretended to work.
Now the Emperor was eager to know how much of the cloth was finished, and would have loved to see for himself. He was, however, somewhat uneasy. “Suppose,” he thought secretly, “suppose I am unable to see the cloth. That would mean I am either stupid or unfit for my post. That cannot be,” he thought, but all the same he decided to send for his faithful old minister to go and see. “He will best be able to see how the cloth looks. He is far from stupid and splendid at his work.”
So the faithful old minister went into the hall where the two weavers sat beside the empty looms pretending to work with all their might.
The Emperor's minister opened his eyes wide. “Upon my life!” he thought. “I see nothing at all, nothing.” But he did not say so.
The two swindlers begged him to come nearer and asked him how he liked it. “Are not the colors exquisite, and see how intricate are the patterns,” they said. The poor old minister stared and stared. Still he could see nothing, for there was nothing. But he did not dare to say he saw nothing. “Nobody must find out,”' thought he. “I must never confess that I could not see the stuff.”
“Well,” said one of the rascals. “You do not say whether it pleases you.”
“Oh, it is beautiful-most excellent, to be sure. Such a beautiful design, such exquisite colors. I shall tell the Emperor how enchanted) I am with the cloth.”
“We are very glad to hear that,” said the weavers, and they started to describe the colors and patterns in great detail. The old minister listened very carefully so that he could repeat the description to the Emperor. They also demanded more money and more gold thread, saying that they needed it to finish the cloth. But, of course, they put all they were given into their bags and pockets and kept on working at their empty looms.
Soon after this the Emperor sent another official to see how the men were ,getting on and to ask whether the cloth would soon be ready. Exactly the same happened with him as with the minister. He stood and stared, but as there was nothing to be seen, he could see nothing.
“Is not the material beautiful?” said the swindlers, and again they talked of 'the patterns and the exquisite colors. “Stupid I certainly am not,” thought the official. “Then I must be unfit for my post. But nobody shall know that I could not see the material.” Then he praised the material he did not see and declared that he was delighted with the colors and the marvelous patterns.
To the Emperor he said when he returned, “The cloth the weavers are preparing is truly magnificent.”
Everybody in the city had heard of the secret cloth and were talking about the splendid material.
And now the Emperor was curious to see the costly stuff for himself while it was still upon the looms. Accompanied by a number of selected ministers, among whom were the two poor ministers who had already been before, the Emperor went to the weavers. There they sat in front of the empty looms, weaving more diligently than ever, yet without a single thread upon the looms.
“Is not the cloth magnificent?” said the two ministers. “See here, the splendid pattern, the glorious colors.” Each pointed to the empty loom. Each thought that the other could see the material.
“What can this mean?” said the Emperor to himself. “This is terrible. Am I so stupid? Am I not fit to be Emperor? This is disastrous,” he thought. But aloud he said, “Oh, the cloth is perfectly wonderful. It has a splendid pattern and such charming colors.” And he nodded his approval and smiled appreciatively and stared at the empty looms. He would not, he could not, admit he saw nothing, when his two ministers had praised the material so highly. And all his men looked and looked at the empty looms. Not one of them saw anything there at all. Nevertheless, they all said, “Oh, the cloth is magnificent.”
They advised the Emperor to have some new clothes made from this splendid material to wear in the great procession the following day.
“Magnificent.” “Excellent.” “Exquisite,” went from mouth to mouth and everyone was pleased. Each of the swindlers was given a decoration to wear in his button-hole and the title of “Knight of the Loom”.
The rascals sat up all that night and worked, burning more than sixteen candles, so that everyone could see how busy they were making the suit of clothes ready for the procession. Each of them had a great big pair of scissors and they cut in the air, pretending to cut the cloth with them, and sewed with needles without any thread.
There was great excitement in the palace and the Emperor's clothes were the talk of the town. At last the weavers declared that the clothes were ready. Then the Emperor, with the most distinguished gentlemen of the court, came to the weavers. Each of the swindlers lifted up an arm as if he were holding something. “Here are Your Majesty's trousers,” said one. “This is Your Majesty's mantle,” said the other. “The whole suit is as light as a spider's web. Why, you might almost feel as if you had nothing on, but that is just the beauty of it.”
“Magnificent,” cried the ministers, but they could see nothing at all. Indeed there was nothing to be seen.
“Now if Your Imperial Majesty would graciously consent to take off your clothes,” said the weavers, “we could fit on the new ones.” So the Emperor laid aside his clothes and the swindlers pretended to help him piece by piece into the new ones they were supposed to have made.
The Emperor turned from side to side in front of the long glass as if admiring himself.
“How well they fit. How splendid Your Majesty's robes look: What gorgeous colors!” they all said.
“The canopy which is to be held over Your Majesty in the procession is waiting,” announced the Lord High Chamberlain.
“I am quite ready,” announced the Emperor, and he looked at himself again in the mirror, turning from side to side as if carefully examining his handsome attire.
The courtiers who were to carry the train felt about on the grou
nd pretending to lift it: they walked on solemnly pretending to be carrying it. Nothing would have persuaded them to admit they could not see the clothes, for fear they would be thought stupid or unfit for their posts.And so the Emperor set off under the high canopy, at the head of the great procession- .It was a great success. All the people standing by and at the windows cheered and cried, “Oh, how splendid are the Emperor's new clothes. What a magnificent train! How well the clothes fit!” No one dared to admit that he couldn't see anything, for who would want it to be known that he was either stupid or unfit for his post?
None of the Emperor's clothes had ever met with such success.
But among the crowds a little child suddenly gasped out, “But he hasn't got anything on.” And the people began to whisper to one another what the child had said. “He hasn't got anything on.” “There's a little child saying he hasn't got anything on.” Till everyone was saying, “But he hasn't got anything on.” The Emperor himself had the uncomfortable feeling that what they were whispering was only too true. “But I will have to go through with the procession,” he said to himself.
So he drew himself up and walked boldly on holding his head higher than before, and the courtiers held on to the train that wasn't there at all.
Nick – I LOVE THIS STORY! Thanks for taking time to share this with us. What a great way to head into the weekend….. I'll smile to myself when I think of this story.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2007,20:49) The Roman Catholic Church, as it exists today, is only about 1000 years old: “During the 11th century, through a gradual process over a number of centuries, the Church underwent the Great Schism in which the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church divided over a number of administrative, liturgical, and doctrinal issues, most notably the Filioque clause and papal primacy of jurisdiction. The schism is conventionally dated to 1054, when the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope issued mutual excommunications that have since been revoked. Both the Second Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Basel (1439) attempted to reunite the Churches, but in both cases the Orthodox rejected the councils. The Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy remain in schism to the present day, although excommunications were lifted mutually between Rome and Constantinople in 1965, and efforts to end the schism continue. Some Eastern Churches have since reunited with the Catholic Church, acknowledging papal primacy, and others claim never to have been out of communion with the Pope. (See Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_ChurchSo no, the “Catholics”, as we understand the term today, had nothing to do with the codification of 3 ecumenical creeds….
Just wanted to point that out.
And the current Catholic Church doesn't:Pray to saints?
Call their clergy father?
Worship on the first day?
Keep the pagan day SUNday that Jesus was NOT resurrected on?
Teach that Jesus was in the tomb two nights and one day? Instead of three days and three nights as Jesus said?
Wear long robes when Jesus said not too?
Worshiped graven images?
Changed the law and times from the Seventh day Sabbath of God to Sunday the first day of man. With the reason given that they wanted to prove that they had the power to do so?
Teach that God is three separate equal persons and that if you don't believe their false doctrine you are not saved?
Say they have the power to change bread to Jesus' flesh and wine to Jesus' blood.
For centuries did not offer the last supper! Only the “body” and not the “blood” which is for the forgivness of sin.
This Pope accepts the sins of All Popes because he accepts being god on earth. And he is god of this world 2Cor.4:4. The bride of Satan and Mother of Harlots.
Use prayer beads?
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.Hi Nick:
You say:
Hi 94,
I do not think you should worry too much.
Only they cannot see that the emperor is wearing no clothes.I hadn't read the story that you shared about the emperor. Thanks for sharing this with me. It definitely relates.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ April 06 2007,15:46) Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,07:42) Hi Not3in1, Paul says you have to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. 4 verses later he tells us who that Lord is, YHWH. So I hope that is your confession.
As for coerced repentance, YHWH did it to Israel all the time. It is terrifying to me, but it is still better for YHWH to afflict us in this life so as to bring us to repentance, than for us to know his wrath on the day of judgment.
Tim
Hi Tim2:Are you indicating that a person who doesn't believe that Jesus is YHWH will not be saved?
John 3:16-18 states: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned…”.
Romans 10:8-9 states: “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”.
Romans 8:1 states: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life”. (1 John 5:9-12)
“Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God”. (1 John 4:13-15)
I know that my Father dwells within me by his Spirit, and so, you cannot coerce me with your doctrine, but take care that you do not lead someone astray by what you teach by telling them unless they believe what you are teaching that they won't be saved.
God Bless
Hi 94,I think Romans 10 is pretty clear. The same is Lord of all. Jesus is the Lord. YHWH is the Lord.
Regarding doctrine, I know it's not pleasant to be told that you have to believe something in order to be saved, but this is the witness of the Bible. Galatians 1 says those who proclaim a different gospel are anathema. 2 Corinthians 11:4 warns against tolerating another Jesus. Unless you believe that another Jesus can save, then only the true Jesus can save. And since the true Jesus is God, it is our duty to teach people that they can only be saved if they believe that He is God.
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ May 23 2007,13:04) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2007,15:46) Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,07:42) Hi Not3in1, Paul says you have to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. 4 verses later he tells us who that Lord is, YHWH. So I hope that is your confession.
As for coerced repentance, YHWH did it to Israel all the time. It is terrifying to me, but it is still better for YHWH to afflict us in this life so as to bring us to repentance, than for us to know his wrath on the day of judgment.
Tim
Hi Tim2:Are you indicating that a person who doesn't believe that Jesus is YHWH will not be saved?
John 3:16-18 states: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned…”.
Romans 10:8-9 states: “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”.
Romans 8:1 states: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life”. (1 John 5:9-12)
“Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God”. (1 John 4:13-15)
I know that my Father dwells within me by his Spirit, and so, you cannot coerce me with your doctrine, but take care that you do not lead someone astray by what you teach by telling them unless they believe what you are teaching that they won't be saved.
God Bless
Hi 94,I think Romans 10 is pretty clear. The same is Lord of all. Jesus is the Lord. YHWH is the Lord.
Regarding doctrine, I know it's not pleasant to be told that you have to believe something in order to be saved, but this is the witness of the Bible. Galatians 1 says those who proclaim a different gospel are anathema. 2 Corinthians 11:4 warns against tolerating another Jesus. Unless you believe that another Jesus can save, then only the true Jesus can save. And since the true Jesus is God, it is our duty to teach people that they can only be saved if they believe that He is God.
Tim
Hi Tim2:Have you ever considered that it might be you who is preaching another Jesus?
Any way, you will never convince me that I am not saved or that I have to believe your doctrine to be saved.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.This is what God has said to humanity there is nothing said here that says that I have to believe the “trinity doctrine” or that I have to believe that Jesus is God in the way that you indicate in order to be saved. I do believe that he is God in that he is the express image of his person. (Hebrews 1:3)
You haven't troubled me at all by telling me that I am not saved because the Spirit of God my Father dwells within me and testifies by witnessing with my spirit that I am His child. Should I believe you or Him?
But it does trouble me that some one who is a baby Christian may believe you when you tell them that unless they believe your doctrine they are not saved, and they be led astray, but having said this to you, this is a matter between you and God.
God Bless
Quote (Tim2 @ May 23 2007,13:04) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2007,15:46) Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,07:42) Hi Not3in1, Paul says you have to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. 4 verses later he tells us who that Lord is, YHWH. So I hope that is your confession.
As for coerced repentance, YHWH did it to Israel all the time. It is terrifying to me, but it is still better for YHWH to afflict us in this life so as to bring us to repentance, than for us to know his wrath on the day of judgment.
Tim
Hi Tim2:Are you indicating that a person who doesn't believe that Jesus is YHWH will not be saved?
John 3:16-18 states: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned…”.
Romans 10:8-9 states: “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”.
Romans 8:1 states: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life”. (1 John 5:9-12)
“Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him and he in God”. (1 John 4:13-15)
I know that my Father dwells within me by his Spirit, and so, you cannot coerce me with your doctrine, but take care that you do not lead someone astray by what you teach by telling them unless they believe what you are teaching that they won't be saved.
God Bless
Hi 94,I think Romans 10 is pretty clear. The same is Lord of all. Jesus is the Lord. YHWH is the Lord.
Regarding doctrine, I know it's not pleasant to be told that you have to believe something in order to be saved, but this is the witness of the Bible. Galatians 1 says those who proclaim a different gospel are anathema. 2 Corinthians 11:4 warns against tolerating another Jesus. Unless you believe that another Jesus can save, then only the true Jesus can save. And since the true Jesus is God, it is our duty to teach people that they can only be saved if they believe that He is God.
Tim
Tim you speak of another Jesus. Yes Tim the Jesus that was supposed to be resurrected on Sunday. The Jesus that actually did away with the ten commandment law of GOD.The Jesus that serves the Harlot.
The REAL Jesus gave no creeds or prayers, rather instruction on How and WHO to pray too!
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
If you pray to Jesus you disobey the true Saviour and accept the Saviour of the Harlot.
I pray to the Father Tim. Just as my Saviour said too!!
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Praise God for His mercy and patients!
IHN&L,
Ken
Hi Tim2,
You say
” And since the true Jesus is God, it is our duty to teach people that they can only be saved if they believe that He is God.”Who are the WE that dare draw condemnations from forcing together extracts of scripture?
Luke 11:35
“Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of the new creation.
As his brothers, we will follow him.Jesus was obviously not the FIRSTBORN of this creation……that honor would go to Cain and Abel.
[My Bible says Jesus was the first born of every creature. Doesn't this mean Jesus was created? Or am I missing something? ]
Ruko, yes Jesus is the first born of the creation because he was the WORD of God, but he was NOT created, rather BEGOTTEN by the UNbegotten Father, therefore he was always with God, he is God's WORD/WISDOM/THEN MADE FLESH, named “Jesus” he was actually named Joshua, or the Hebrew or Aramaic equivalent, and literally meant Jehovah Saves, or Jehovah's Salvation…before the scripture was written into Greek.
It served both as a reminder of the Old Testament “deliverer” who brought the Hebrews into the promised land, and it prophesied his Delivering the people from their sins. The name or title “Christ” did not indicate a sir-name, but is a descriptor of his “office” or role. Again, THE Anointed One.
Proverbs 8:19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth, By understanding He established the heavens.
Proverbs KJV:8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
“Set up – Heb. anointed, constituted to be the person by whom the Father resolved to do all his works, to create, to uphold and govern and judge, to redeem and save the world. From the beginning – Before which, there was nothing but a vast eternity. The earth – Which together with the heaven, was the first of God's visible works.”
To all I like to bring this up again, because there is so much confusion on other post about the creation of Jesus. He was the first that came forth from the Father. He was spirit, and He created everything by the power of the Father.
Col. 1:15 ” Who is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of every creature.”
verse 16 “For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities. All things were created through Him and for Him.'
verse 18 ” And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He will have the preeminence.Rev. 3:14 ” …. These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”
John 17:5 ” And now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was.”
John 6:62 ” What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?”
Peace Mrs.
To all;
The issue of Christ pre-existence is at hand. I couldn't find the thread so here goes. Christ said that he came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of him that sent him. There are three very important points here. 1) Christ came down from Heaven. Jesus is a person. 2) He came down not to do his own will. Christ had a will in heaven. Only persons with distinct identities have their own wills. 3) Christ says he was sent by the Father from heaven. You have to twist the scriptures to make any other conclusion than Christ pre-existed as a Son with the Father from this verse. He said my Father sent me, thereby, establishing the fact that he was a Son before he came to earth.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 08 2007,11:48) To all; The issue of Christ pre-existence is at hand. I couldn't find the thread so here goes. Christ said that he came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of him that sent him. There are three very important points here. 1) Christ came down from Heaven. Jesus is a person. 2) He came down not to do his own will. Christ had a will in heaven. Only persons with distinct identities have their own wills. 3) Christ says he was sent by the Father from heaven. You have to twist the scriptures to make any other conclusion than Christ pre-existed as a Son with the Father from this verse. He said my Father sent me, thereby, establishing the fact that he was a Son before he came to earth.
You've got a good point.Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
But wasn't it the WORD that became flesh from heaven?
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