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WJ writes:
I personally think its gonna take physical persecution that God will use to bring his people into unity.********************************
Interestingly enough, persecution is exactly what brought about the signing of the Nicea creed. These are not my ideas, but what is written in history. It certainly was a tool to bring about the “unity” that the Roman government desired at the time. Sign the creed, or be exiled (or killed).Check out: Church History by John Dwyer (the best and most complete book I've ever read on the councils *by a Catholic*). What he reveals may shock you. You can pick up a cheap copy on half.com
Tim2,
But do you realize who were the ones doing the coercing? I encourage you to read up on church history. The book I mentioned really has a lot to offer.Also, Tim2, nowhere in the Bible does it say that those who do not believe in the Trinity will not enherit eternal life. I know that has been your speech since you began here. But I encourage you to let Jesus be the judge. He knows who belongs to him. Besides, it's too big of a burden to decide who will get to enter into Paradise, and who will not. Why don't you leave that up to someone who has been given the honor to decide such things. We already have a Saviour, Tim2. I say this with all due respect. It's just I get tired of Trinitarians telling me I'm going to hell. How do you know my heart? No one knows the heart of another man…..
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 05 2007,06:52) WJ writes:
I personally think its gonna take physical persecution that God will use to bring his people into unity.********************************
Interestingly enough, persecution is exactly what brought about the signing of the Nicea creed. These are not my ideas, but what is written in history. It certainly was a tool to bring about the “unity” that the Roman government desired at the time. Sign the creed, or be exiled (or killed).Check out: Church History by John Dwyer (the best and most complete book I've ever read on the councils *by a Catholic*). What he reveals may shock you. You can pick up a cheap copy on half.com
not3in1I was simply refering to Jesus Prophesys for the last days!
Read Mathew Ch 24 and 25.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,06:54) Better to be coerced into believing now than to suffer in eternity for it.
Hi Tim 2,
Perhap the odd bit of torture and murder would make them see the light and it was popular with Roman emperors.That is a “traditionally” effective method for the followers of Constantine.
But is forced sincere repentance and conversion possible?
I was simply refering to Jesus Prophesys for the last days!
********************WJ – oh, I know. I was just adding an interesting note on persecution as it related to the Trinity dogma and it's beginnings….
Hi Not3in1,
Paul says you have to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. 4 verses later he tells us who that Lord is, YHWH. So I hope that is your confession.
As for coerced repentance, YHWH did it to Israel all the time. It is terrifying to me, but it is still better for YHWH to afflict us in this life so as to bring us to repentance, than for us to know his wrath on the day of judgment.
Tim
Hi Nick,
My beliefs are sorted out. They're in the 3 ecumenical creeds. They're imposed on all the world by God, through the Bible.
Tim
The Roman Catholic Church, as it exists today, is only about 1000 years old:
“During the 11th century, through a gradual process over a number of centuries, the Church underwent the Great Schism in which the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church divided over a number of administrative, liturgical, and doctrinal issues, most notably the Filioque clause and papal primacy of jurisdiction. The schism is conventionally dated to 1054, when the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope issued mutual excommunications that have since been revoked. Both the Second Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Basel (1439) attempted to reunite the Churches, but in both cases the Orthodox rejected the councils. The Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy remain in schism to the present day, although excommunications were lifted mutually between Rome and Constantinople in 1965, and efforts to end the schism continue. Some Eastern Churches have since reunited with the Catholic Church, acknowledging papal primacy, and others claim never to have been out of communion with the Pope. (See Eastern Rite Catholic Churches.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_ChurchSo no, the “Catholics”, as we understand the term today, had nothing to do with the codification of 3 ecumenical creeds….
Just wanted to point that out.
hmmm doesnt sound right to me Is
There were bishops in those councils I believe. Especially the Council of Nicea(?) or Nicene. I thought bishops were Roman Catholics?
But, of course, Im not clued up in this areaQuote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,08:47) Hi Nick, My beliefs are sorted out. They're in the 3 ecumenical creeds. They're imposed on all the world by God, through the Bible.
Tim
Rather, church history shows that these beliefs & creeds were imposed on all the world by a lot of bloodshed, the edge of the sword and persecution!Brings to mind what Jesus himself said …
(John 16:2-3) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 05 2007,17:37) Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,08:47) Hi Nick, My beliefs are sorted out. They're in the 3 ecumenical creeds. They're imposed on all the world by God, through the Bible.
Tim
Rather, church history shows that these beliefs & creeds were imposed on all the world by a lot of bloodshed, the edge of the sword and persecution!Brings to mind what Jesus himself said …
(John 16:2-3) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
He has bent His bow like an enemy;
He has set His right hand like an adversary;
He has slain all that were pleasant to the eye;
In the tent of the daughter of Zion He has poured out His wrath like fire.-Lamentations 2:4
Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 05 2007,17:37) Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,08:47) Hi Nick, My beliefs are sorted out. They're in the 3 ecumenical creeds. They're imposed on all the world by God, through the Bible.
Tim
Rather, church history shows that these beliefs & creeds were imposed on all the world by a lot of bloodshed, the edge of the sword and persecution!Brings to mind what Jesus himself said …
(John 16:2-3) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
AMEN! They slaughtered saints who didn't keep their lies.Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them *that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony* which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.Who did this was it not the antichrist? The POPE and now her daughters also!
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Some escaped because the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, the called out ones, of God Who:
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the *remnant of her seed, which *keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ*.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,17:57) Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 05 2007,17:37) Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,08:47) Hi Nick, My beliefs are sorted out. They're in the 3 ecumenical creeds. They're imposed on all the world by God, through the Bible.
Tim
Rather, church history shows that these beliefs & creeds were imposed on all the world by a lot of bloodshed, the edge of the sword and persecution!Brings to mind what Jesus himself said …
(John 16:2-3) They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
He has bent His bow like an enemy;
He has set His right hand like an adversary;
He has slain all that were pleasant to the eye;
In the tent of the daughter of Zion He has poured out His wrath like fire.-Lamentations 2:4
Hi Tim2,
Do you offer these verses to suggest that those who do not ascribe to the catholic nicene or athanasian creeds are to be subject to the wrath of God?What of those who prefer to abide in the Word as Jesus said?
Come out of her.
Hi Tim2,
Surely your prime allegiance is to truth, as the Words of God Himself, rather than any creeds drawn from them?Jn 17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.Or do you regard your catholic church leaders as inspired to teach new truths?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 05 2007,07:32) I was simply refering to Jesus Prophesys for the last days!
********************WJ – oh, I know. I was just adding an interesting note on persecution as it related to the Trinity dogma and it's beginnings….
Not3in1Study your church history. The trinity didnt start with the Roman Catholics.
The trinity was around in the first century!
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