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My Bible says Jesus was the first born of every creature. Doesn't this mean Jesus was created? Or am I missing something?
Hi ruko,
Welcome.
Yes and it also describes Jesus as
” the beginning of the creation of God” in Rev 3.14But there do not seem to be any others to support this.
Hebrews 1 says of him
“through whom he made the world”-that does not include him.
and Coll 1
“By him all things were created ” and ” all things have been created through him and for him”-He is not a thing and thus this does not include him.The Greeks believed in the created and the uncreated. God was of course uncreated and we were created. Greek philosophy found it hard to label Jesus, so creeds were invented that put him in either the created or uncreated categories. This is what brought about the Trinity doctrine. Two men from Alexandria argued aposing views. Athanasius said that the son was uncreated and equal with God, even God himself. Arius said that he was a created being.
But scripture says that Christ who is the Word was born of God. Then all that is created was made by God but through Christ.
So Christ was begotten, not created. Therefore the Word/Christ is like his God and has his nature. He is a divine being.
So rather than being created, scripture teaches that he was begotten. There is a difference.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.Hi,
Jesus is also called
'the only begotten God'[jn 1.18]
Of course his divine nature does not make him still a part of a godhead as he is the Son of God.Somehow some people , when they see the divine nature of the Word of God revealed in scripture, assume that proves he must still be part of His Father /God.
I cannot understand why they think that way.
Quote (ruko @ Sep. 08 2005,18:04) My Bible says Jesus was the first born of every creature. Doesn't this mean Jesus was created? Or am I missing something?
yeah… you might be missing something…. hopefully, we can agree that the Bible is free from contradiction…the Bible says “Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. For, he said, God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father's house. The name of the second he called Ephraim, For God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.” (Gen 41:51-52 esv)
Pretty clear right? Manasseh is the first born… but wait… look at this:
“With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.” (Jer 31:9 esv)
Hey… what gives? Does the Bible contradict itself after all? No, of course not. This is because to the Hebrew, “firstborn” was a title of preeminence, a place of honor, Manasseh lost this place of honor when he apostatized. So when “firstborn” is used of Jesus Christ it doesn’t mean that Jesus was the first born son from some sexual union between Jehovah and some goddess….!!! lol…. you would have to join Mormonism to find that teaching. Rather, Jesus is preeminent, holding the highest place of honor, where one day, every knee under heaven and earth shall bow before Him.
So much then for that Arian “argument”.
blessings
Hi e,
I agree. And being the “beginning of the creation of God” also does not state the Word was created. But he is the only begotten Son of God, who was with God in the beginning and through whom came all of creation.Dear ruko,
Your bible is correct. Jesus is the first born of creation. Many think when the bible refers to Jesus as begotten, it means he was begotten when he came to earth as a man, but this is not so. Jesus is the beginning and end of God's plan of salvation. He is the Alpha, Omega, the beginning, the end, the first and the last.
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You must understand that all of creation was spoken into existance. The bible tells us that God begat the Son. In the beginning was the Word. Before God created the heavens and all that was contained in them, he begat the Son, the Word and by the Word and through the Word all things were created.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 16 2006,19:29) Dear ruko, Your bible is correct. Jesus is the first born of creation. Many think when the bible refers to Jesus as begotten, it means he was begotten when he came to earth as a man, but this is not so. Jesus is the beginning and end of God's plan of salvation. He is the Alpha, Omega, the beginning, the end, the first and the last.
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You must understand that all of creation was spoken into existance. The bible tells us that God begat the Son. In the beginning was the Word. Before God created the heavens and all that was contained in them, he begat the Son, the Word and by the Word and through the Word all things were created.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Quote Many think when the bible refers to Jesus as begotten, it means he was begotten when he came to earth as a man, but this is not so. I'm not sure if I can totally agree with this. Jesus was not refered to in the beginning as the only Begotten Word. The term begotten is only used of Christ as the Son of God, but not as the Word of God. If I am incorrect please give me the texts that support Christ being the begotten Word.
Hi Sultan,
How about
“only begotten God” as in Jn 1.18?
Adam Pastor has shown that there is manuscript variation here but it must be well supported for NASB to translate it thus.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2006,04:13) Hi Sultan,
How about
“only begotten God” as in Jn 1.18?
Adam Pastor has shown that there is manuscript variation here but it must be well supported for NASB to translate it thus.
Nick,
Thank you for the reference. I have seen this in the NASB, and alsoo in my greek New Testament, it is a very interesting rendering. I also considered Psalms 2:7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee..
This verse is referenced in Hebrews 1:5 as refering to the Son, and here there is no specific reference of time.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?.
Through the meditation of scripture God has given me my answer. It is 1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
John says that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world.
Nick thanks again for the scripture. I have posted the process, and conclusion I have come to in this matter. Christ from the scriptures was begotten by God and became the firstborn over all creation, and then came into the world in the flesh.
Quote (Sultan @ June 17 2006,19:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2006,04:13) Hi Sultan,
How about
“only begotten God” as in Jn 1.18?
Adam Pastor has shown that there is manuscript variation here but it must be well supported for NASB to translate it thus.
Nick,
Thank you for the reference. I have seen this in the NASB, and alsoo in my greek New Testament, it is a very interesting rendering. I also considered Psalms 2:7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee..
This verse is referenced in Hebrews 1:5 as refering to the Son, and here there is no specific reference of time.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?.
Through the meditation of scripture God has given me my answer. It is 1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
John says that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world.
Nick thanks again for the scripture. I have posted the process, and conclusion I have come to in this matter. Christ from the scriptures was begotten by God and became the firstborn over all creation, and then came into the world in the flesh.
Hi Sultan:I am persuaded along those very lines myself given the various scriptures where Jesus speaks of coming from heaven, proceeding from the Father, etc.
He said that the angels of children do behold his Father's face. He sounds like he's been there and knows because as far as we know, it is not a quotation from the OT. Don't the scriptures also speak of him coming FROM and RETURNING to his Father?
Quote (Sultan @ June 17 2006,14:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2006,04:13) Hi Sultan,
How about
“only begotten God” as in Jn 1.18?
Adam Pastor has shown that there is manuscript variation here but it must be well supported for NASB to translate it thus.
Nick,
Thank you for the reference. I have seen this in the NASB, and alsoo in my greek New Testament, it is a very interesting rendering. I also considered Psalms 2:7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee..
This verse is referenced in Hebrews 1:5 as refering to the Son, and here there is no specific reference of time.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?.
Through the meditation of scripture God has given me my answer. It is 1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
John says that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world.
Nick thanks again for the scripture. I have posted the process, and conclusion I have come to in this matter. Christ from the scriptures was begotten by God and became the firstborn over all creation, and then came into the world in the flesh.
Hi sultan and cubes,
I agree. He was a son when he was sent.There is a hint too in Hebrews 1 in the order that the scriptures are placed with
Ps 2
being before the “When He brought His son into the world”And in the parable of the Vinegrower the son is sent to the tenant farmers after all the messengers [prophets]are killled.
Dear Sultan,
If you look a little deeper, you will understand. Jesus is the Word of God. If you look up the word begotten in the dictionary, it say to bring into existance. In the beginning, the Father begat the Son. Even before the heavens and the earth was the Son. God spoke creation into existance.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Notice the words, by whom also he made the worlds.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
God begat his Son the Word and by the Word and through the Word, all things were created by the Father.Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Verse 16 clearly states that by Jesus came all of creation. Believe the word of God. Jesus was the first and the last, the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the end.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 17 2006,19:47) Dear Sultan, If you look a little deeper, you will understand. Jesus is the Word of God. If you look up the word begotten in the dictionary, it say to bring into existance. In the beginning, the Father begat the Son. Even before the heavens and the earth was the Son. God spoke creation into existance.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Notice the words, by whom also he made the worlds.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
God begat his Son the Word and by the Word and through the Word, all things were created by the Father.Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Verse 16 clearly states that by Jesus came all of creation. Believe the word of God. Jesus was the first and the last, the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the end.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
H,
Thank you for your post, but I already understand that Jesus is the Word of God. The issue that I was addressing was concerning the term Begotten, and it's application to Jesus as the Son and Jesus as the Word.Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 18 2006,00:47) Dear Sultan, If you look a little deeper, you will understand. Jesus is the Word of God. If you look up the word begotten in the dictionary, it say to bring into existance. In the beginning, the Father begat the Son. Even before the heavens and the earth was the Son. God spoke creation into existance.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Notice the words, by whom also he made the worlds.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
God begat his Son the Word and by the Word and through the Word, all things were created by the Father.Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Verse 16 clearly states that by Jesus came all of creation. Believe the word of God. Jesus was the first and the last, the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the end.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Hi H,
In greek “only begotten”[monogenes] is one word, as in this scripture.
So the Word 'begotten' or 'born' does not relate coming from a different greek source.However the word in Ps 2 does relate to begetting or birth.
Personally I believe it takes in concepts such as unique and solely derived.
A list of scriptures that show that Christ existed before coming in the flesh. Some sciptures are clear while others hint at his pre-existence.
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Hi t8,
An interesting call on Ez 8.2.
Personally I would have thought it was the angel of the Lord but what do others think?
Presumably it is the same being as shown in Ez 1.26f where he speaks for the Lord God?Could be an angel.
Although the description is very close to Revelation 1:12-18, which is Christ.
Inferred perhaps, but definately not conclusive.
Hi t8,
There are some similarities but none of us know what “angelic majesties” as in 2 Peter 2 and Jude 8 look like. That can look like to men and one in Ez 10 2 is called a man.My problem, too, is that if the being is Christ then he came to earth before his birth cancelling out any claim to being the same as us, as written in Hebrews,who have had no such advantage.
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