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GB,
You may try that excuse but God does not wear it.
He holds all men responsible for their decisions despite the influences upon them.
The dominion of darkness extends to all men and Jesus came to set men free bringing them into the light.GB,
Men are controlled by the god of this world and all who are not saved will worship the beast.
But there is freedom in Christ JesusEph2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Nick………..interesting GOD says he hold the person responsible for (HIS) Sins , not some unseen creature, and James say a man is a man is not tempted by God or for that matter anything else , he says a man is caused to sin by His (OWN) lusts, so a cop out excuse like Satan caused it is not going to work, as you say GOD wont by that Excuse , and God is pictured as a GOD of Justice, so its the man himself that is sinning himself and not caused to by some unseen being going around jumping in and out of him. Now if you want to talk about Spirit Influence, working in a person that is true and the Spirit influence is evil influence, but evil influence is a person or creature but intellect in the mind of a person. IMO
peace……………………………………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,12:26) Hi JOdi,
You may believe that and perhaps could find relevant verses but the context proves you wrong in this particular verseEph2
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Gentiles were not circumcised. Jews were circumcised according to their law. The ACT of circumcision is to physically CUT OFF THE FLESH. For a person however to be made truly righteous they must have there flesh cut off through the workings of God's Spirit. This is not a physical act of the Spirit to literally cut off man's flesh, but a spiritual one, one of cutting off the carnal mind that serve the flesh.Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
We cannot cut off the carnal mind ourselves, we need God's working Spirit, a Spirit of which WORKS through INFLUENCES.
The access that God gave to Israel to bring them to Him, the law, did not work, it only condemned them all the more. The hope of the Israelites was in the fact if they followed the law they were blessed, if they didn't they were cursed. The Gentiles were not given the law, so they didn't have this access to God.
The true access is through God's Spirit with it's powerful ability to influence. Because of Jesus dying for our sins, we all, Jew and Gentile, have access to God now through His Spirit.
The enmity that existed between Jew and Gentile because one had access to God and the other didn't, was of no avail, because the law did not work righteousness. Their law gave them no advantage.
The law worked to reveal the carnal mind all the more, it showed the serious weaknesses of man.
The TRUE enmity that Jesus destroyed, as the scripture SPECIFICALLY tells us, was the carnal mind.
God does the work to cut off the flesh, it is not done by the hand of man.
In my understanding of scripture, Jodi
Hi JOdi,
Scripture rather describes the new circumcision differentlyCol2
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
Hi Jodi,
Many assume they have the Spirit but they should know[Acts 19]You say
“The true access is through God's Spirit with it's powerful ability to influence.”The gentle breeze of the Spirit forces no man but those seeking that guidance find it.
Hi Jodi,
You say
“This is not a physical act of the Spirit to literally cut off man's flesh, but a spiritual one, one of cutting off the carnal mind that serve the flesh. “Cutting off the carnal mind?
No we need it transformed by renewal.Rom12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,13:52) Hi JOdi,
Scripture rather describes the new circumcision differentlyCol2
8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross
Yes these scriptures are part of my understanding.Hi jodi,
So water baptism is the new circumcision and the mind needs renewal according to the Spirit of the Christ, the Word. We need the mind of Christ and his words are spirit and lifeQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,14:03) Hi Jodi,
You say
“This is not a physical act of the Spirit to literally cut off man's flesh, but a spiritual one, one of cutting off the carnal mind that serve the flesh. “Cutting off the carnal mind?
No we need it transformed by renewal.Rom12
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
These scriptures of which you posted trying to portray my understanding as being ignorant of them, in all actuality FIT IN PERFECTLY with my understanding, because they are part of how I have formed my understanding.A man who walks in the Spirit is no longer conformed to the world for he no longer follows after a carnal mind. His mind has been renewed, for the influence of God's working Spirit has made the mind of man overcome the desires of the flesh, so that he no longer serves the flesh but serves God.
In other words, the renewal of man's mind in the Spirit has worked to cut off the influences of the world, and the influences of the world are of course according to the carnal mind, therefore man has CUT OFF his carnal mind!
HI JOdi,
I might believe you if cutting off of the mind was a scriptural concept.
The mind is renewed.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,14:25) Hi jodi,
So water baptism is the new circumcision and the mind needs renewal according to the Spirit of the Christ, the Word. We need the mind of Christ and his words are spirit and life
HUH,
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Hey Nick, could you please answer my questions?
Do you or do you not believe that man makes choices dependent upon influences?
Do you or do you not believe that man is known to be easily influenced?
Hi Jodi,
Yes they are strongly held by the god of this world and the gentle Spirit struggles with their strongmindednessActs28
23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.24And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,14:50) HI JOdi,
I might believe you if cutting off of the mind was a scriptural concept.
The mind is renewed.
Nick it is sad that you have to be so technical with peoples words just to try and prove them wrong.To cut off something is the same as removing it, or ridding it, or putting it to death.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
We live spiritually no longer in the flesh, meaning we have cut it off, or removed it, or have put it to death.
Ro 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new
Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Crucified the flesh, meaning to put it to death, or to remove it, or cut it off.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 03 2009,14:57) Hi Jodi,
Yes they are strongly held by the god of this world and the gentle Spirit struggles with their strongmindednessActs28
23And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.24And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
So when it comes down to it you believe that the influence of the evil one is more powerful and intelligent then the influences of YHWH?Perhaps an opinion from a different source would help.
Word of the Month – hary (Yirah – Fear)
By: Jeff A. BennerThis Hebrew noun is used forty-five times and is most frequently translated as fear. In our English language fear is a state of excitedness, in a negative way, toward something terrible. Before we look at the Hebraic meaning of this word we will examine its use in the common context of “the Fear of the Lord” which appears twenty-seven times.
Proverbs 15:33 (RSV)
The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility goes before honor.The common understanding of this verse is that if one is afraid of the Lord he will have wisdom but, as we shall see this is not consistent with its use in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew for this phrase is hwhy tary (yirat Yahweh). When two nouns are placed together they are in the construct state meaning that these two words should be considered one. Another clue that these two nouns are in the construct is the change of the letter h (h). When the first word of the construct phrase ends with the letter h (h), it changed to the letter t (t).
Below is a complete list of construct phrases from the book of Genesis where the second word in the construct is “the Lord” (Yahweh).
The Word of the Lord (Genesis 15:1)
The Voice of the Lord (Genesis 3:8)
The Face of the Lord (Genesis 4:16)
The Name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26)
The Eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8)
The Garden of the Lord (Genesis 13:10)
The Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7)
The Way of the Lord (Genesis 18:19)
The Mount of the Lord (Genesis 22:14)You will notice that in every instance the first word in the construct (word, voice, etc) belongs to the second word of the construct (Yahweh). The “fear” in the phrase “the fear of the Lord” is not our fear, it is the Lord's fear. Because God cannot “fear” we must look to the Ancient Hebrew concrete meaning of this word to understand it.
The word yirah comes from the parent root yar which means “to flow” and is related to words meaning river and rain, from their flowing, and to throw in the sense of flowing. From this we can see that when one is afraid the insides begin to shake, a flowing of the insides. But as the word yirah means “to flow” it is not limited to “fear” alone.
In our introductory verse we saw that wisdom comes from this “fear of the Lord.” Compare that with Exodus 31:3 – “And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship.” It is “the Spirit of God (the Lord)” that gives us wisdom in the same way that “the fear of the Lord” does. The Hebrew word for “spirit” is “ruach” literally meaning the “wind,” which is also a flowing. The “fear of the Lord” is his Spirit which flows out of him into us giving us wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
Nick……..Jodi is explaining it right, quite trying to be right all the time and Acknowledge what She is saying. Her post are sound and accurate. To Crucify the Flesh does mean to put its works to death, So it does not dominate your life. And that can only be done by two ways , ONE IS FEAR< LAW (forced compliance), which does not change the heart of a person, that was tried and failed. the other is by the SPIRIT of GOD (GRACE) the influencing on the Heart by GOD. One works and one doesn't. Jodi is Right IMO.
peace………………………..gene
Quote (martian @ Feb. 03 2009,15:08) Perhaps an opinion from a different source would help. Word of the Month – hary (Yirah – Fear)
By: Jeff A. BennerThis Hebrew noun is used forty-five times and is most frequently translated as fear. In our English language fear is a state of excitedness, in a negative way, toward something terrible. Before we look at the Hebraic meaning of this word we will examine its use in the common context of “the Fear of the Lord” which appears twenty-seven times.
Proverbs 15:33 (RSV)
The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility goes before honor.The common understanding of this verse is that if one is afraid of the Lord he will have wisdom but, as we shall see this is not consistent with its use in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew for this phrase is hwhy tary (yirat Yahweh). When two nouns are placed together they are in the construct state meaning that these two words should be considered one. Another clue that these two nouns are in the construct is the change of the letter h (h). When the first word of the construct phrase ends with the letter h (h), it changed to the letter t (t).
Below is a complete list of construct phrases from the book of Genesis where the second word in the construct is “the Lord” (Yahweh).
The Word of the Lord (Genesis 15:1)
The Voice of the Lord (Genesis 3:8)
The Face of the Lord (Genesis 4:16)
The Name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26)
The Eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8)
The Garden of the Lord (Genesis 13:10)
The Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7)
The Way of the Lord (Genesis 18:19)
The Mount of the Lord (Genesis 22:14)You will notice that in every instance the first word in the construct (word, voice, etc) belongs to the second word of the construct (Yahweh). The “fear” in the phrase “the fear of the Lord” is not our fear, it is the Lord's fear. Because God cannot “fear” we must look to the Ancient Hebrew concrete meaning of this word to understand it.
The word yirah comes from the parent root yar which means “to flow” and is related to words meaning river and rain, from their flowing, and to throw in the sense of flowing. From this we can see that when one is afraid the insides begin to shake, a flowing of the insides. But as the word yirah means “to flow” it is not limited to “fear” alone.
In our introductory verse we saw that wisdom comes from this “fear of the Lord.” Compare that with Exodus 31:3 – “And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship.” It is “the Spirit of God (the Lord)” that gives us wisdom in the same way that “the fear of the Lord” does. The Hebrew word for “spirit” is “ruach” literally meaning the “wind,” which is also a flowing. The “fear of the Lord” is his Spirit which flows out of him into us giving us wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
Thank you Martian, I believe what you posted by Jeff A. Benner gives us both truth and wisdom.Thanks too for getting us back on topic
Martian……..i agree with that definition , it does make sense to me, To many scriptures show we are not to fear our Heavenly Father But desire Him. thanks for the explanation.
peace …………………….gene
Quote (Jodi @ Feb. 04 2009,10:17) Quote (martian @ Feb. 03 2009,15:08) Perhaps an opinion from a different source would help. Word of the Month – hary (Yirah – Fear)
By: Jeff A. BennerThis Hebrew noun is used forty-five times and is most frequently translated as fear. In our English language fear is a state of excitedness, in a negative way, toward something terrible. Before we look at the Hebraic meaning of this word we will examine its use in the common context of “the Fear of the Lord” which appears twenty-seven times.
Proverbs 15:33 (RSV)
The fear of the LORD is instruction in wisdom, and humility goes before honor.The common understanding of this verse is that if one is afraid of the Lord he will have wisdom but, as we shall see this is not consistent with its use in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew for this phrase is hwhy tary (yirat Yahweh). When two nouns are placed together they are in the construct state meaning that these two words should be considered one. Another clue that these two nouns are in the construct is the change of the letter h (h). When the first word of the construct phrase ends with the letter h (h), it changed to the letter t (t).
Below is a complete list of construct phrases from the book of Genesis where the second word in the construct is “the Lord” (Yahweh).
The Word of the Lord (Genesis 15:1)
The Voice of the Lord (Genesis 3:8)
The Face of the Lord (Genesis 4:16)
The Name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26)
The Eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8)
The Garden of the Lord (Genesis 13:10)
The Angel of the Lord (Genesis 16:7)
The Way of the Lord (Genesis 18:19)
The Mount of the Lord (Genesis 22:14)You will notice that in every instance the first word in the construct (word, voice, etc) belongs to the second word of the construct (Yahweh). The “fear” in the phrase “the fear of the Lord” is not our fear, it is the Lord's fear. Because God cannot “fear” we must look to the Ancient Hebrew concrete meaning of this word to understand it.
The word yirah comes from the parent root yar which means “to flow” and is related to words meaning river and rain, from their flowing, and to throw in the sense of flowing. From this we can see that when one is afraid the insides begin to shake, a flowing of the insides. But as the word yirah means “to flow” it is not limited to “fear” alone.
In our introductory verse we saw that wisdom comes from this “fear of the Lord.” Compare that with Exodus 31:3 – “And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship.” It is “the Spirit of God (the Lord)” that gives us wisdom in the same way that “the fear of the Lord” does. The Hebrew word for “spirit” is “ruach” literally meaning the “wind,” which is also a flowing. The “fear of the Lord” is his Spirit which flows out of him into us giving us wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
Thank you Martian, I believe what you posted by Jeff A. Benner gives us both truth and wisdom.Thanks too for getting us back on topic
I am not a man worshiper of men, but I have found Jeff Benners insight very good. If you are interested he is the crator of The Ancient Hebrew Research Center. You can google it and find more from him.martian
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