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Hi jodi,
You agree men are called to repentance.
Observation shows it is not happeningYet you think all men will be saved?
You have this amazing hope that whatever is possible will happen but it is not of faith as it is not prophesied that all will repent or that all men who have ever lived will be saved.
Repentance has been offered even to gentiles but the takeup by the heathen is poor.
So it is not of faith as it involves understanding and obedient actions.
Could it all happen by Magic or is it just Presumption?
Nick………..at this time only a few are chosen , but that doesn't mean the rest will never get there Chance for salvation as you presume.
peace…………………..gene
Nick……..So is not GOD able to raise them again and give the and cause them to repent and recieve salvation. Doesn't it say all things are possible with GOD. Why write anyone off , would you want God or Jesus to do that to you brother.
love and mercy to you and all………………………gene
GB,
All men will be raised.
But not all to glory..Jn5
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote Kerwin…….You are a typical fear mongering So-called Christian, Hears something for you to chew on while you fear and tremble, “LOVE CAST OUT FEAR”
I am well aware that scripture does not contradict so if your interpretation contradicts another scripture then something is flawed. You should look at the context of what is written:
1 John 4:18(NIV) reads:
Quote
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.The fear of God does not have to do with punishment but with obedience for those who obey God have no reason to fear punishment though they do fear the just results of choosing disobedience.
1 Peter 2:17(NIV) reads:
Quote Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
1 Peter 3:14-15(NIV) reads:
Quote But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.” 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord.
Isaiah 8:12-13(NIV) reads
Quote “Do not call conspiracy
everything that these people call conspiracy ;
do not fear what they fear,
and do not dread it.
The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,Even Jesus states:
Luke 12:4(NIV) reads:
Quote But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote but Paul showed a completely different way, and fear is not Part of it,
Actually only John said anything about fear being a sin. Paul spoke often of fearing God and so fearing to disobey Him.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote Not to mention the word Fear is completely mistranslated as Martain plainly showed, even if you look it up in a Greek concordance it should be rendered reverence or respect
Martain may say that but Peter obviously quotes Isaiah the prophet who states real clearly God is the one you should dread. I choose to believe God and not Martain.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote FEAR can not Change the Heart and mind of anyone. that should be obvious to any true Christian
So fear has never prevented you from doing something foolish? Since you are still living I doubt that. As Jesus said “Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.”
I will say this and that is like worry fear can be the result of lack of faith and that is certainly a sin in the eyes of God. Still our job is to grow in the faith and if we take ask God, seek to overcome, and take advantage of the opportunities God puts in front of us then we will grow in faith. Still we must believe all that God states or our faith is false.
Kerwin………You are twisting what said, i said (FEAR) can never Change the Heart or mind of a person, Sure FEAR is a DETERRENT but is doesn't correct our Hearts and Minds, If it could the the Law would have worked, But you see it didn't work , AS Paul plainly said, Buy obedience to the law shall (NO) Flesh be justified before GOD, and again you conveniently left out the rest of my quotes ” FOR YOU HAVE (NOT) RECEIVED A SPIRIT OF FEAR BUT OF POWER and A SOUND MIND> But you evidently have a spirit of fear or you wouldn't preach it. If you care to look it up the proper word for fear should be rendered reverence and respect. FEAR Has torment Just as it says it does and trying to change scripture to make it appear different is forcing the text to meet you Dogmas. Nothing is PERFECTED IN FEAR Just as it says, and true (LOVE) will cast OUT FEAR, NOT CAST it IN> IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………….gene
Kerwin,
I agree with Gene that there is a difference between love for God and obedience out of love and it being from the heart, which is the love that God wants (worship in spirit and truth) and adherence to physical rites and rules (baptism, communion, church going, do not kill, do not commit adultery) out of fear of punishment (which is what the old covenant was based on)
Hi,
Mt10
28 And fear [5399]not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear[5399] him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Number 5399
Transliteration:
phobeo {fob-eh'-o}
Word Origin:
from 5401
TDNT:
9:189,1272
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
fear 62, be afraid 23, be afraid of 5, reverence 1, misc 2Total: 93
Definition:
to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
to put to flight, to flee
to fear, be afraid
to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm
of those startled by strange sights or occurrences
of those struck with amazement
to fear, be afraid of one
to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience For Synonyms see entry 5841Yes reverence is the translation on one occasion
meerkat,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Meerkat,You share some good thoughts here:
Quote I agree with Gene that there is a difference between love for God and obedience out of love and it being from the heart, which is the love that God wants (worship in spirit and truth) and adherence to physical rites and rules (baptism, communion, church going, do not kill, do not commit adultery) out of fear of punishment (which is what the old covenant was based on) Paul wrote, RO 13:8-10 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Jesus echoed that, MT 22:37 Jesus replied: ” `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Paul also said “love never fails” and wrote about what motivated him, For Christ's love compels us,Rom.5:14
Question – if I do not kill because of my love for Christ and His love for me, is that worship in Spirit and truth? What about if I do not steal, commit adultery, covet for those same reasons? And if I take communion, go to church, etc. because I love Jesus and appreciate His love for me. If I am compelled by love – is that in spirit and truth and worship that is acceptable to God rising up to His nostrils as a sweet smelling aroma?
I believe so!
Seeking
Hi S,
I love Psalm 123
1Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.2Behold, as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their masters, and as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress; so our eyes wait upon the LORD our God, until that he have mercy upon us.
3Have mercy upon us, O LORD, have mercy upon us: for we are exceedingly filled with contempt.
4Our soul is exceedingly filled with the scorning of those that are at ease, and with the contempt of the proud.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote Buy obedience to the law shall (NO) Flesh be justified before GOD, and again you conveniently left out the rest of my quotes ” FOR YOU HAVE (NOT) RECEIVED A SPIRIT OF FEAR BUT OF POWER and A SOUND MIND.
I quoted the eighth chapter of Romans so as to get what you are citing in context. If you look at verses 12-13 we are told quite clearly we are not under obligation to live according to the sinful nature(flesh), which is to say we are not obliged to sin. In fact it tells us if we do so we will perish. Rather in verse 14 he teaches we are to live by the Spirit and put to death the misdeeds of the body, which is to say we will stop sinning.
Romans 8:12-15(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Now to address the term “fear” which you are using in the wrong context. Those that continue to sin are suffering “an emotion experienced in anticipation of some specific pain or danger” (in this case the just punishment for their sin). Such individuals may seek to avoid the punishment for their sins without actually doing the work to avoid it. An example of this is those that believe that faith only saves them but disregard the fact that faith without works is dead. On the other hand fear of God, at least in the context I am speaking of, is concern for the result of one’s actions in this case concern that if you choose to sin you will be punished by God.
Princeton WordNet Search 3.0 reads:
Quote Noun
* S: (n) fear, fearfulness, fright (an emotion experienced in anticipation of some specific pain or danger (usually accompanied by a desire to flee or fight))
* S: (n) concern, care, fear (an anxious feeling) “care had aged him”; “they hushed it up out of fear of public reaction”
* S: (n) fear, reverence, awe, veneration (a feeling of profound respect for someone or something) “the fear of God”; “the Chinese reverence for the dead”; “the French treat food with gentle reverence”; “his respect for the law bordered on veneration”Verb
* S: (v) fear (be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible or probable situation or event) “I fear she might get aggressive”
* S: (v) fear, dread (be afraid or scared of; be frightened of) “I fear the winters in Moscow”; “We should not fear the Communists!”
* S: (v) fear (be sorry; used to introduce an unpleasant statement) “I fear I won't make it to your wedding party”
* S: (v) fear (be uneasy or apprehensive about) “I fear the results of the final exams”
* S: (v) reverence, fear, revere, venerate (regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of) “Fear God as your father”; “We venerate genius”Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote But you evidently have a spirit of fear or you wouldn't preach it. If you care to look it up the proper word for fear should be rendered reverence and respect.
So when scripture states :“fear and trembling” it means “reverence and trembling” or “respect and trembling” and when it states “fear the one who can throw you into hell” it means “respect the one who can throw you into hell.” I would have to be real gullible to believe any of that.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote Nothing is PERFECTED IN FEAR Just as it says, and true (LOVE) will cast OUT FEAR, NOT CAST it IN> IMO
Here you go trying to use scripture to contradict scripture once again as Philippians 2:12 clearly states “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. The contradiction makes it obvious that fear is being used in two different contexts and has two different definitions.
Gene Balthrop wrote:
Quote You are twisting what said, i said (FEAR) can never Change the Heart or mind of a person, Sure FEAR is a DETERRENT but is doesn't correct our Hearts and Minds, If it could the Law would have worked
You are dealing with several different points here. The first is that the fear of God is what leads to one pursuing the true righteousness that comes from God whether the person is under the Law or not. The second is that a person who pursues God’s righteousness also loves God’s commands even as they fear to disobey Him because they know that obedience is good for them and disobedience is bad for them. This means that those who pursue righteousness also seek a change in mind, heart, and spirit as that is necessary to be truly righteous as God is righteous. The fourth point is that the law failed because the pursuit was by human effort and humans are by nature corrupt while the Spirit succeeds because it is pursuit by God’s effort and He is not corrupt. Still to get the Spirit one must believe that it exist which is to say one must believe that God will give you a true righteousness that is like His in that you will not sin when led by the Spirit.
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 03 2009,08:58) Question – if I do not kill because of my love for Christ and His love for me, is that worship in Spirit and truth? What about if I do not steal, commit adultery, covet for those same reasons? And if I take communion, go to church, etc. because I love Jesus and appreciate His love for me. If I am compelled by love – is that in spirit and truth and worship that is acceptable to God rising up to His nostrils as a sweet smelling aroma? I believe so!
SeekingIMO God is not holding a church register in heaven, with how many communions taken, and if you are baptised.
What you need to assess is when you are at church – is what is said all TRUTH and right, are you being fed deceptions/lies along with truth in the sermons?? How can the many different denominations be led by the same spirit if they are not in agreement with each other?
I have tried a couple of churches and found that “church” seems to be about subtle indoctrination with their particular brand of theology – baptist, methodist, catholic, etc along with singing songs of praise and tithing. And congratulations of “being saved” and making the “right choice”
Hi MK,
Yes Christ is not divided.
So what are these divisions?
True fellowship starts with the Father and the Son1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 02 2009,14:02) Quote IMO God is not holding a church register in heaven, with how many communions taken, and if you are baptised. Meerkat,
Got to agree with that. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
(Rom.14:17-18)Quote How can the many different denominations be led by the same spirit if they are not in agreement with each other? I can readily see honest worshippers not agreeing on everything. Paul had a solution when he wrote –
PHP 3:12-15 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.What an attitude Paul had – I'm not there yet, I'm moving in that direction, I forget the past, I concede we will disagree, I strive to focus on the things on which we agree!
Seems folks would rather focus on divisive things – don't credit each other with equal sincerity in following the Lord,
and crave to disagree. And they would pass that off as “worship” and “being a true believer.”Quote I have tried a couple of churches and found that “church” seems to be about subtle indoctrination with their particular brand of theology – baptist, methodist, catholic, etc along with singing songs of praise and tithing. And congratulations of “being saved” and making the “right choice” Yes, and you could put any name in there you chose. UCG, WWCG, UNITY, ad infinitum. Each believes we have a patent on truth and if you don't see it my way your wrong.
But about my question for the one in that environment but not of it -Question – if I do not kill because of my love for Christ and His love for me, is that worship in Spirit and truth? What about if I do not steal, commit adultery, covet for those same reasons? And if I take communion, go to church, etc. because I love Jesus and appreciate His love for me. If I am compelled by love – is that in spirit and truth and worship that is acceptable to God rising up to His nostrils as a sweet smelling aroma?
I believe so! Would you agree?
Finding those like minded enough to be comfortable with has been a real challenge. If I may ask, to you attend with any group at all? More and more folks seem to be moving from the “traditional church.”
Seeking
Hi S,
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, ” The Lord knows those who are His,” and, ” Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”Hi Jodi:
You say:
Quote The word of God tells us that GOD SAVED Jesus, that GOD kept Jesus from sin. Please give me the scriptures to which you are referring.
Thanks
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 03 2009,10:53) Yes, and you could put any name in there you chose. UCG, WWCG, UNITY, ad infinitum. Each believes we have a patent on truth and if you don't see it my way your wrong.
Exactly …….
Quote But about my question for the one in that environment but not of it -Question – if I do not kill because of my love for Christ and His love for me, is that worship in Spirit and truth? What about if I do not steal, commit adultery, covet for those same reasons? And if I take communion, go to church, etc. because I love Jesus and appreciate His love for me. If I am compelled by love – is that in spirit and truth and worship that is acceptable to God rising up to His nostrils as a sweet smelling aroma? I believe so! Would you agree?
I dunno, maybe for some yes – however I believe that God looks at the heart and I would like to believe that there is no condemnation for adherence to rituals and forms of worship done out of love for Christ and God – what is also in my mind that the love of God and Christ has also led to atrocities being commited.
To me if I had to give my opinion on what the modern day Babylon is that is mentioned in Revelation I would have to say that it is the organised religion of christianity – claiming to be christs but splintered into thousands and thousands of different sects, with lots of varying theologies, beliefs, creeds, rituals, truths.
I am not sure that it is a cut and dried situation of all is acceptable because of ignorance – Jesus said that to whom much is given – more is required. I believe that if you are seeking truth, you can not hold onto deception at the same time.
Quote Finding those like minded enough to be comfortable with has been a real challenge. If I may ask, to you attend with any group at all? More and more folks seem to be moving from the “traditional church.” My background is growing up in a pentecostal hellfire believing church, and rejecting “the church” at 14/15, last year I was drawn to Christ and God but at this stage I do not attend “a church” as I said I tried a couple and got the feeling of obedience to God being equal to obedience to “the church” and receiving their doctrines.
Quote (942767 @ Feb. 02 2009,14:12) Hi Jodi: You say:
Quote The word of God tells us that GOD SAVED Jesus, that GOD kept Jesus from sin. Please give me the scriptures to which you are referring.
Thanks
Hi 94, here is my understanding,2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
How does obedience come? Through our own devices? No it is done through the work of God.
Ezekiel 37:13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.' “
Did not God put His Spirit in Jesus which kept him from sin, making him perfectly obedient? Did not Jesus receive immortality, the eternal gift of life?
Ezekiel 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
God's Spirit working in Jesus saved him from disobedience, it kept him from sin.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The Spirit is life because it is what works righteousness. The Spirit of God is what kept Jesus from sin.
1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit* is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth),
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
From the beginning God knew of His plan where one man would bring sin into the world and another man would remove it. God uses His Spirit as He wills and it was according to God's will that Jesus would remain without sin.
Hebrews 19:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 02 2009,16:00)
Meerkat,Thank you for being candid. I am striving to find the “love walk.” For a long time I was persuaded that one had to be
“right” with perfect doctrine, right dividing, and the usual jargon.My experience in these groups is that their pundits are rude,
unkind, judgemental, etc. One day I reallty settled in on
1Cor. 13:4-7 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.What I did see was “we have the right gifts, we are suffering servants, we have the correct understanding” as their proof
they were the enlightened ones. But then I considered 1Cor.13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. I was convicted they made a lot of noise but bore fruit inconsistent with the word. Jesus said it is by their fruit you will know them.I am thanful some are illuminating these ill spirited attitudes on these forums. Do I claim not to be guilty? No, I have actually probably been a part of the problem. I REPENT!
and am forgiven!!It is difficult to find like minded folk. I had thought perhaps it was what these forums were about. Defebders of the “truth” easily forget with “meekness and gentleness in all humility”.
Thanks! It has been refreshing.
Seeking
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