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Kenrch you said: “Amen! God will use a jackass if He wants to get His message across, sometimes He does!” Priceless! Now would that be Balaam's donkey?
Sometimes we think WE have to do it all and forget the power God has to call His own. One can also be like the Pharisees having all head knowledge but no real heart of compassion for people. I can only be responsible before God and Christ for what I teach but I also have a duty to speak the truth and correct error when I hear it. I've learned to ASK God for the words first however!
Here is a scripture I'd like everyone to consider because it is quite germain to this topic. How would you personally apply this today?
———————————————————–
Paul INSTRUCTED us to “…EXPOSE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT” (Titus 1:9). “…of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus [named individuals], who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:180. “…which some, thrusting away, have made shipwreck as to the faith; OF WHOM ARE HYMENEUS AND ALEXANDER, whom I give up to Satan…” (I Tim. 1:20), etc.
———————————————————–Now how far do YOU go to apply this? I'd like to know your thoughts on how you would balance this scriptural admonition in actual practice.
Semmy
Quote (seminarian @ June 27 2006,22:21) Kenrch you said: “Amen! God will use a jackass if He wants to get His message across, sometimes He does!” Priceless! Now would that be Balaam's donkey? Sometimes we think WE have to do it all and forget the power God has to call His own. One can also be like the Pharisees having all head knowledge but no real heart of compassion for people. I can only be responsible before God and Christ for what I teach but I also have a duty to speak the truth and correct error when I hear it. I've learned to ASK God for the words first however!
Here is a scripture I'd like everyone to consider because it is quite germain to this topic. How would you personally apply this today?
———————————————————–
Paul INSTRUCTED us to “…EXPOSE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT” (Titus 1:9). “…of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus [named individuals], who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:180. “…which some, thrusting away, have made shipwreck as to the faith; OF WHOM ARE HYMENEUS AND ALEXANDER, whom I give up to Satan…” (I Tim. 1:20), etc.
———————————————————–Now how far do YOU go to apply this? I'd like to know your thoughts on how you would balance this scriptural admonition in actual practice.
Semmy
Hi Semmy,Good to have you on board.
Good question. Do we continue to pray for people who profess to know Christ who continue to willfully PURSUE a way of life which is contrary to what Jesus calls us to? I am not talking about those who are struggling with issues or addictions who clearly want to be set free but are overpowered by the strong man, but those who do not desire or see a need to repent and be healed. An example would be the so-called church that says its ok for members of the same sex to marry, for practicing and unrepentent homosexuals to become priests, bishops and what have you…. This is of course just one example and one that is high-profiled, but it is happening among the masses in our midsts. I speak of professing christians, not the world. And I speak of those who do not see anything wrong with what they do, who in fact, seek to pervert the way of Christ.
It's hard to let go because even some are our own dearly loved ones but after we've prayed and waited patiently for years… if they would not acknowledge what they do as sin and so desire repentence, we in the long run have no choice but to abandon them to their choices (Satan) as the ultimate decision to turn rests with them.
Thanks Cubes,
Excellent post. I think we would all agree to not keep company with anyone “called a brother” who willfully does the disgraceful things you've mentioned. (Do not envy wicked men, do not desire their company Proverbs 24:1)
My question is regarding those who are teaching a false doctrine or another Christ by tradition. I know many people whom I serve at my church are deceived. I'm an alter worker and pray for people who
approach for prayer. All I can do is pray to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name no matter what they may believe. What do you expect when the pastors themselves are simply following the traditions of men? I've told them what I thought. Yes, Jesus is god as he himself decribed the meaning of theos as placer or disposer when he quoted Psalm 82:6. However that DOES NOT make him the FATHER. The latest deception I've seen is simply thinking there is no God the Father, only the Lord Jesus. I was shocked when the assistant pastor got up in front of the church on Father's day and said “Happy Father's Day, Jesus!” It's really gotten ridiculous at this point.We have to be compassionate for those who are caught between clergy and truth. However, I am putting more time and resources into my own mnistry, (God's actually), than in churches that teach another Christ. I know our Lord still calls me to love them. I know I am not 100% correct on every point of doctrine and God still loves and uses me. Any thoughts on this? Do you think ministers like this are deliberately deceiving people or are they trapped as victims of false teachings themselves?
Semmy
Hi S,
You need to know who is part of the body of Christ. Those who think they are, but who have not been through the gate of Jesus are not members of that Body even though they be leaders of a denominational group.
The road is narrow and few choose it, and most of those who think they are safe, are not.
It is not those who say “lord, Lord” who know him as Lord but those whom he knows, those who have obeyed the message he brought from his Father.Hi Nick,
Good point. However is it really for us to say who is part of the Body of Christ? If I were to define Christians as only those who have the same understanding of scripture as I do, might I be stumbling the “least of these” of whom our Lord spoke? Something about having a huge millstone tied around my neck does not sound too appealing.
I agree that the path is narrow and few choose to find it BUT Romans also says that, “There is then now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not according to flesh, but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1) I'm not reading that the person has to possess the proper doctrine for this to happen. The scripture of “Lord, Lord” you quoted is Christ making the final assessment of who was truly known by him. I just don't see us making a call like that now when we ourselves are imperfect and subject to error.
Nick, I'm just trying to balance compassion with rightly dividing the Word. I know groups like the Mormons and JW's think anyone who does not believe just as they do is serving the Devil. I beg to differ. Paul said that we could miss the mark even though we possess all knowledge and yet have not love. (1 Corn 13:2) I know I've been wrong, (still am), on a lot of scriptures but God saw my heart, forgave me and blessed me anyway. After being forgiven my sins, how can I turn around and say my brother should not be shown this same grace?
During Jesus' time on earth, he preached to and had disciples from among the Pharisees who believed in the resurrection and the Saducees who did not. That seems to be a huge doctrinal disparity to me. I can't tell who truly belongs to Christ. I surely wouldn't want to judge based on doctrine alone. If they belong to Christ, wonderful. If not, perhaps loving them anyway may provide fertile soil for the seeds of truth to sprout.
Thank you for your comments and thoughts Nick.
Semmy
KJV: If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
1 John 4 KJV
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,00:16) Hi Nick, Good point. However is it really for us to say who is part of the Body of Christ? If I were to define Christians as only those who have the same understanding of scripture as I do, might I be stumbling the “least of these” of whom our Lord spoke? Something about having a huge millstone tied around my neck does not sound too appealing.
I agree that the path is narrow and few choose to find it BUT Romans also says that, “There is then now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not according to flesh, but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1) I'm not reading that the person has to possess the proper doctrine for this to happen. The scripture of “Lord, Lord” you quoted is Christ making the final assessment of who was truly known by him. I just don't see us making a call like that now when we ourselves are imperfect and subject to error.
Nick, I'm just trying to balance compassion with rightly dividing the Word. I know groups like the Mormons and JW's think anyone who does not believe just as they do is serving the Devil. I beg to differ. Paul said that we could miss the mark even though we possess all knowledge and yet have not love. (1 Corn 13:2) I know I've been wrong, (still am), on a lot of scriptures but God saw my heart, forgave me and blessed me anyway. After being forgiven my sins, how can I turn around and say my brother should not be shown this same grace?
During Jesus' time on earth, he preached to and had disciples from among the Pharisees who believed in the resurrection and the Saducees who did not. That seems to be a huge doctrinal disparity to me. I can't tell who truly belongs to Christ. I surely wouldn't want to judge based on doctrine alone. If they belong to Christ, wonderful. If not, perhaps loving them anyway may provide fertile soil for the seeds of truth to sprout.
Thank you for your comments and thoughts Nick.
Semmy
Hi S,
Paul constantly scolded and corrected the new babies in the faith.
He patiently instructed them in the ways of righteousness and hoped they would walk in those paths.
He pointed to the graces available and trusted God to do the work.
Those teachings are still available to us along with all the other glorious treasures of truth to learn from.
But one thing he knew, was that all who heard his words had already obeyed the Master and been reborn into the kingdom in Christ.
They knew nothing yet as babies on milk, and all they thought they knew he had to wean them off. He was only watering the work of growth that came from God in Christ.One thing never changes;
“Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness and everything else will be added to you”
Until the builder digs deep and finds the rock and lays that precious foundation stone on it all he has built is vanity.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ June 28 2006,00:23) KJV: If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. 1 John 4 KJV
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
amenQuote (seminarian @ June 27 2006,17:21) Kenrch you said: “Amen! God will use a jackass if He wants to get His message across, sometimes He does!” Priceless! Now would that be Balaam's donkey? Sometimes we think WE have to do it all and forget the power God has to call His own. One can also be like the Pharisees having all head knowledge but no real heart of compassion for people. I can only be responsible before God and Christ for what I teach but I also have a duty to speak the truth and correct error when I hear it. I've learned to ASK God for the words first however!
Here is a scripture I'd like everyone to consider because it is quite germain to this topic. How would you personally apply this today?
———————————————————–
Paul INSTRUCTED us to “…EXPOSE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT” (Titus 1:9). “…of whom are Hymeneus and Philetus [named individuals], who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:180. “…which some, thrusting away, have made shipwreck as to the faith; OF WHOM ARE HYMENEUS AND ALEXANDER, whom I give up to Satan…” (I Tim. 1:20), etc.
———————————————————–Now how far do YOU go to apply this? I'd like to know your thoughts on how you would balance this scriptural admonition in actual practice.
Semmy
Yes semmy that would be Balaam's donkey and in no way was it ment as a put down for you or anyone else.All I ever do is what I'm told to do. The joke I told was just that, a joke.
I thought what I wrote that Christians are all over the world and not always where they are wanted. Meaning that you telling the truth in a church that believes in the trinty and then going to a seminary that you said has doctrines you don't believe.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
*1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.Thaks Nick & He's Coming in the Clouds,
Well, Paul surely did exhort with tears, sleepless nights and many prayers didn't he? I think you both pointed to the importance of not watering down the truth with which I truly agree. Still we need to be mindful of HOW to go about doing that. Paul again gives us some insight in his Epistle to Timothy:
“Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if her were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers and younger women as sisters with absolute purity.” (1 Tim 5:1) Now perhaps among these are “babes as needing of milk”, but it gives some clear directives on how we should go about doing that.
My point is that I don't want to discourage someone who is at least trying to follow Christ even if they are deceived and especially when I MYSELF have been wrong on doctrine(s). Ask yourself this: Have I always known what the Bible teaches? Have I ever made a mistake in understanding what God's Word said?
I speak the truth in love and believe people would rather see a great sermon than hear one. Yes it is our responsibility to teach the truth but I also follow Paul's example and spend a lot of time on my knees praying for my brothers and sisters. Great scriptures guys!
Semmy
Hi Kenrch,
Not at all. No putdown taken. That's why I wrote “Priceless” after your quote.
You said: “I thought what I wrote that Christians are all over the world and not always where they are wanted. Meaning that you telling the truth in a church that believes in the trinty and then going to a seminary that you said has doctrines you don't believe.”
That's for sure. However, I didn't go in with guns blazing and telling them, “You guys are really off the Word here”. No, I offered kindness first. They have seen that I care about them and are more open to hearing what I think and why. I also make sure I'm walking the walk.
As for the seminary, if I didn't need licensing for Chaplaincy, I would most likely pass. However as you noted, perhaps I may not be wanted but surely I am NEEDED here as well.
I just ask God, “Even if everyone else is praying to Jesus, just let me be the one voice there who is praising You in his name. Even if everyone else is going along with the Emperor's New Clothes, let me be the one voice who speaks the truth found in Your Word.” There are opportunities to help people that one might pass because they may not believe as I do.
So there is a reason why I am where I am at. God help me to step up to the plate and fulfill His purpose. God bless you Kenrch.
Semmy
Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,01:53) Hi Kenrch, Not at all. No putdown taken. That's why I wrote “Priceless” after your quote.
You said: “I thought what I wrote that Christians are all over the world and not always where they are wanted. Meaning that you telling the truth in a church that believes in the trinty and then going to a seminary that you said has doctrines you don't believe.”
That's for sure. However, I didn't go in with guns blazing and telling them, “You guys are really off the Word here”. No, I offered kindness first. They have seen that I care about them and are more open to hearing what I think and why. I also make sure I'm walking the walk.
As for the seminary, if I didn't need licensing for Chaplaincy, I would most likely pass. However as you noted, perhaps I may not be wanted but surely I am NEEDED here as well.
I just ask God, “Even if everyone else is praying to Jesus, just let me be the one voice there who is praising You in his name. Even if everyone else is going along with the Emperor's New Clothes, let me be the one voice who speaks the truth found in Your Word.” There are opportunities to help people that one might pass because they may not believe as I do.
So there is a reason why I am where I am at. God help me to step up to the plate and fulfill His purpose. God bless you Kenrch.
Semmy
Hey you know what? Go back to my earlier post and you will read a humble almost saint. But hang around for a few months not many do
Don't you dare dissagree with Nick scriptures or no scriptures your wrong and he is always right.
Watch him he is like a snake waiting in the bush. Right now he will be almost humble but just wait and I'm saying that right in front of him because he just can't help himself. Just hang around but I'd give him about a month or less depending on the subject. For instance According to Nick NO matter that you give a siscere heart felt confession and accept Christ. Something happens and you die then you are doomed because you were not water baptized.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. You can forget that scripture and others. Because Nick says it's wrong.Go back in the understanding water baptism thread and read.
Read the whole thing. I promise you will be amazed. Promise!Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,00:58) Thanks Cubes, Excellent post. I think we would all agree to not keep company with anyone “called a brother” who willfully does the disgraceful things you've mentioned. (Do not envy wicked men, do not desire their company Proverbs 24:1)
My question is regarding those who are teaching a false doctrine or another Christ by tradition. I know many people whom I serve at my church are deceived. I'm an alter worker and pray for people who
approach for prayer. All I can do is pray to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name no matter what they may believe. What do you expect when the pastors themselves are simply following the traditions of men? I've told them what I thought. Yes, Jesus is god as he himself decribed the meaning of theos as placer or disposer when he quoted Psalm 82:6. However that DOES NOT make him the FATHER. The latest deception I've seen is simply thinking there is no God the Father, only the Lord Jesus. I was shocked when the assistant pastor got up in front of the church on Father's day and said “Happy Father's Day, Jesus!” It's really gotten ridiculous at this point.We have to be compassionate for those who are caught between clergy and truth. However, I am putting more time and resources into my own mnistry, (God's actually), than in churches that teach another Christ. I know our Lord still calls me to love them. I know I am not 100% correct on every point of doctrine and God still loves and uses me. Any thoughts on this? Do you think ministers like this are deliberately deceiving people or are they trapped as victims of false teachings themselves?
Semmy
Hi Semmy:Some believe and teach false doctrines because they know no better having never had the opportunity to hear the truth laid out.
Others like all of us, are at different stages of growth but are growing nonetheless and abiding in the true vine and need patience.
However, there are others still who have made up their minds to believe what they want to believe regardless of the truth presented in the scriptures, and these, I believe, after a time, must be left alone to the Lord Jesus if by any means he'll have mercy on them and give them a Paul experience on the way to Damascus. But they take a big gamble because not every one got a Paul experience.
Actually, the scriptures teach that we are to have nothing to do with such people so, yeah, eventually I shall have to admit that we are not of the same faith and so not brother's or sisters. I would think that it depends also on the particular doctrine in question. I am not going to break bond with a sister or brother because they believe that worship on the Sabbath is preferrred to Tuesday or vice versa. But now, if they do not believe in the resurrection, or that Christ is Messiah the Son of God, or insist that God is other than YHWH the one God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… then they are of a different faith and that unfortunately would have to be their decision.
Thanks for the heads up Kenrch but I actually enjoy a good debate. Many of us make the mistake of winning the argument but killing our brother. That is definitely not me. These are simply discussions and nobody's word has power enough to deprive one of God's love.
Regarding people thinking water baptism is a “prerequisite for salvation”, let me ask this. Where was the water for the theif who was executed alongside Jesus? Of course we want to be obedient to God's Word but we have to remember that Christ gets to make the final call on such matters just as he did for the poor soul who died with him. We can really become legalistic just like the Pharisees whom our Lord lit into frequently for such thinking. Christ said the Law was made for man, not man for the Law. This sort of thinking also makes one feel that they “deserve” God's favor because they've been following all of the rules. This obscures the fact that we all sin in our speech and hearts each day. We can't deal with these issues if we are convinced we've already done what was required.
I'm here to bless, to build you guys up and to encourage you to keep going along the straight & narrow even as I am finding my way. If someone has some helpful insights, I'm surely willing to learn.
Semmy
Hey Semmy,
That's for sure. “However, I didn't go in with guns blazing and telling them, “You guys are really off the Word here”. No, I offered kindness first”. They have seen that I care about them and are more open to hearing what I think and why. I also make sure I'm walking the walk.No offence but
. Test the spirit Semmy. Go back and read.Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,02:40) Thanks for the heads up Kenrch but I actually enjoy a good debate. Many of us make the mistake of winning the argument but killing our brother. That is definitely not me. These are simply discussions and nobody's word has power enough to deprive one of God's love. Regarding people thinking water baptism is a “prerequisite for salvation”, let me ask this. Where was the water for the theif who was executed alongside Jesus? Of course we want to be obedient to God's Word but we have to remember that Christ gets to make the final call on such matters just as he did for the poor soul who died with him. We can really become legalistic just like the Pharisees whom our Lord lit into frequently for such thinking. Christ said the Law was made for man, not man for the Law. This sort of thinking also makes one feel that they “deserve” God's favor because they've been following all of the rules. This obscures the fact that we all sin in our speech and hearts each day. We can't deal with these issues if we are convinced we've already done what was required.
I'm here to bless, to build you guys up and to encourage you to keep going along the straight & narrow even as I am finding my way. If someone has some helpful insights, I'm surely willing to learn.
Semmy
Hi S,
Was the good thief saved under the Old Covenant or the New?
The New Covenant was begun with the death of the Lamb.
The Lamb was not yet dead.Quote (Cubes @ June 28 2006,02:29) Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,00:58) Thanks Cubes, I know I am not 100% correct on every point of doctrine and God still loves and uses me. Any thoughts on this? Do you think ministers like this are deliberately deceiving people or are they trapped as victims of false teachings themselves?
Semmy
Hi Semmy:
Some believe and teach false doctrines because they know no better having never had the opportunity to hear the truth laid out.
Others like all of us, are at different stages of growth but are growing nonetheless and abiding in the true vine and need patience.
However, there are others still who have made up their minds to believe what they want to believe regardless of the truth presented in the scriptures, and these, I believe, after a time, must be left alone to the Lord Jesus if by any means he'll have mercy on them and give them a Paul experience on the way to Damascus. But they take a big gamble because not every one got a Paul experience.
Actually, the scriptures teach that we are to have nothing to do with such people so, yeah, eventually I shall have to admit that we are not of the same faith and so not brother's or sisters. I would think that it depends also on the particular doctrine in question. I am not going to break bond with a sister or brother because they believe that worship on the Sabbath is preferrred to Tuesday or vice versa. But now, if they do not believe in the resurrection, or that Christ is Messiah the Son of God, or insist that God is other than YHWH the one God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… then they are of a different faith and that unfortunately would have to be their decision.
Whoa Cubes,Now we are getting somewhere! In your last paragraph, you were specific in what you felt was the cut off point for fellowship. Good. Thank you for being so candid.
I agree but also would add that it is the teachers who will draw a heavier judgment, correct? The reason for that is their responsibility in leading the flock astray.
I still have compassion on many members of the church who really don't know what to believe because they have never been presented with an alternative to what the pastor says. I'm really floored at the lack of basic Biblical understanding among longtime church members. What's worse is the pastors aren't much better!
Listen, I'm no Einstein, but I can read in the NT that Jesus is called the Son of God at least 49 times but never once called God the Son. Adam is also called the son of God in Luke 3:38 when discussing Jesus' geneology. There's nothing of diety in the title son of God. Bene Elohim means sons of God as referring to angels.
So I'm more inclined to give people a chance because I feel God would want me to help them. Now after being shown what God's Word says and they still want to hold to their traditions, well, they will, as you've noted, stand in judgment before Christ for that. I don't think I would refuse to associate with those who just don't know any better though. By patience and prayer, I may be able to reach them but if I don't even try, what can I say?
Thanks!
Semmy
Hi Nick, you wrote:
“Hi S,
Was the good thief saved under the Old Covenant or the New?
The New Covenant was begun with the death of the Lamb.
The Lamb was not yet dead.”This is not a relevant question. Under the Law, the Pharisees said only God could forgive sins.
Jesus showed them otherwise by healing on the Sabbath, (the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath),
and telling the man who was lowered through the roof on a cot, “Your sins are forgiven, get up and walk.” (Matthew 9:5)So Jesus was exercising his authority to forgive sins prior to his death on the cross during Old Testament Law times as the Lamb was not yet slain. Why then would he not be able to extend forgiveness and salvation aka Paradise to the thief just before his death? I think this question answers itself.
Semmy
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