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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,23:22)
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.[/color]Do you see how they worshipped both demons AND man-made idols?
So does this mean demons are gods to you too Mike?Where in scripture does Jesus or any of the Apostles refer to demons as gods?
They were gods to unregenerate, unsaved, lost, and blind idolaters. But they are not today nor ever were real gods but merely fallen angels who may be served and worshiped by evil men.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,21:34) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,13:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 07 2013,22:02) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2013,18:29)
To human Israelites, the judges were gods, mighty ones. To angels, of course these judges weren't mighty ones, or gods.
Was it Moses that was made a god (mighty one) to pharaoh? Yet, is Moses a god to Jesus?
DavidExactly, and to true monotheistic believers they are not gods at all, but only gods made in the minds of men who believe in them or worship them.
WJ
No, David, Keith, God called the judges “gods”, but unless I have missed something, the Israelites did not call them “gods” but judges.If I am wrong David, Please show me where the people called the judges gods or individually “a god”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIt is not God calling the judges gods in Psalms 82.
Why would you assume the first 5 verses is the Lord speaking when it is clear the last 3 verses is the Psalmist?
No it is the Psalmist that called them gods but then says though he once called them gods now he declares they will die like men.
WJ
Hi Keith:I believe that it is God speaking because the psalmist begins the psalm by saying “God judges amongst the gods, and then in verse 2 through 7 it appears that it is God speaking to the judges telling them that they have judged unjustly and showing them why.
And because I don't see any other scripture to which Jesus refers when he answers the accusation by the Pharisees that he is making himself equal with God by stating that he is the Son of God in John 1O:33-36.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,22:47) This is a picture of one of the goddesses t8 and Mike believe in. Her name is Diane, one of the Greek Goddesses that is part of Roman Mythology. According to mythology, Diana was born with her twin brother Apollo on the island of Delos, daughter of Jupiter and Latona. Diana made up a triad with two other Roman deities: Egeria the water nymph, her servant and assistant midwife; and Virbius, the woodland god. Source
The Apostle Paul preached against their Idolatry saying that she nor her images are gods at all….
Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. Acts 19:26,27
Notice they were concerned that her magnificence could be destroyed, proof that Diana their god was merely an idol in the temple who they believed was this mythological character in the form of an idol.
Where are these so-called gods today? Where was their demonstrated power in New Testament times? Where did Jesus or his followers ever refer to demons or any of these so-called gods as gods?
WJ
WJyou out of your mind ;you so desperate that you would lie and find lies over and over again ,
HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU KNOW THAT THAT IS WHO YOU SAY IT COULD BE OR IS
?YOU ARE SINKING IN YOUR OWN MADE HOLE ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,17:36) How about when he says that Jehovah made mankind a little lower than the gods? Were we made a little lower than man-made idols?
MikeWhere is the scripture that says this?
The Septuagint reads…
Thou madest him a little less than angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour; 6 and thou hast set him over the works of thy hands: Ps 8:5
All the major translations read “lower than God” or “lower than angels”.
The Apostle Paul reads it as “Angels” also and uses the Greek word for angels, which is “aggelos” instead of the word “theos”.
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? THOU MADEST HIM A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Heb 2:6, 7
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,18:32) Keith, you are outgunned here. Give up the fight.
Ha Ha! I know you want me to go away and I will.But it seems to me that every time you shoot your Polytheistic cap gun it gets destroyed by an atomic barrage of scriptures!
WJ
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,12:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,21:34) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,13:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 07 2013,22:02) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2013,18:29)
To human Israelites, the judges were gods, mighty ones. To angels, of course these judges weren't mighty ones, or gods.
Was it Moses that was made a god (mighty one) to pharaoh? Yet, is Moses a god to Jesus?
DavidExactly, and to true monotheistic believers they are not gods at all, but only gods made in the minds of men who believe in them or worship them.
WJ
No, David, Keith, God called the judges “gods”, but unless I have missed something, the Israelites did not call them “gods” but judges.If I am wrong David, Please show me where the people called the judges gods or individually “a god”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIt is not God calling the judges gods in Psalms 82.
Why would you assume the first 5 verses is the Lord speaking when it is clear the last 3 verses is the Psalmist?
No it is the Psalmist that called them gods but then says though he once called them gods now he declares they will die like men.
WJ
Hi Keith:I believe that it is God speaking because the psalmist begins the psalm by saying “God judges amongst the gods, and then in verse 2 through 7 it appears that it is God speaking to the judges telling them that they have judged unjustly and showing them why.
And because I don't see any other scripture to which Jesus refers when he answers the accusation by the Pharisees that he is making himself equal with God by stating that he is the Son of God in John 1O:33-36.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Verse one says God judges among the gods. If it is the Lord in the first person then why wouldn't it say “I the Lord judge among the gods?I believe it is the psalmist in vrs 2 that speaking to the judges just as all the other verses. IMO.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2013,05:06) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,12:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,21:34) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,13:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 07 2013,22:02) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2013,18:29)
To human Israelites, the judges were gods, mighty ones. To angels, of course these judges weren't mighty ones, or gods.
Was it Moses that was made a god (mighty one) to pharaoh? Yet, is Moses a god to Jesus?
DavidExactly, and to true monotheistic believers they are not gods at all, but only gods made in the minds of men who believe in them or worship them.
WJ
No, David, Keith, God called the judges “gods”, but unless I have missed something, the Israelites did not call them “gods” but judges.If I am wrong David, Please show me where the people called the judges gods or individually “a god”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIt is not God calling the judges gods in Psalms 82.
Why would you assume the first 5 verses is the Lord speaking when it is clear the last 3 verses is the Psalmist?
No it is the Psalmist that called them gods but then says though he once called them gods now he declares they will die like men.
WJ
Hi Keith:I believe that it is God speaking because the psalmist begins the psalm by saying “God judges amongst the gods, and then in verse 2 through 7 it appears that it is God speaking to the judges telling them that they have judged unjustly and showing them why.
And because I don't see any other scripture to which Jesus refers when he answers the accusation by the Pharisees that he is making himself equal with God by stating that he is the Son of God in John 1O:33-36.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Verse one says God judges among the gods. If it is the Lord in the first person then why wouldn't it say “I the Lord judge among the gods?I believe it is the psalmist in vrs 2 that speaking to the judges just as all the other verses. IMO.
WJ
Well, Ok, if that is the case, to what was Jesus making reference in John 10:33f?Actually, the Hebrew scriptures translate the word “gods” as “angels”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2013,15:22) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,13:39) Hi Mike: Maybe the following scripture will help:
Quote
Psalm 96:4 For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise;
he is to be feared above all gods.
5 For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the Lord made the heavens.
6 Splendor and majesty are before him;
strength and glory are in his sanctuary.And so, that eliminates the gods of the nations, they are false gods, even though to the nations worshipped them as gods.
You are right, Marty. That scripture should help.First, for verse 4, the NETNote is: Or perhaps “and feared by all gods.” See Ps 89:7.
So verse 4 could be saying that Jehovah is feared by all the other gods.
Secondly, the word “idol” is nowhere in the Hebrew text of verse 5. The word is “elilim”, which means “worthless (thing)”.
So verse 5, according to the Hebrew text says that the gods of the nations are worthless………. not that they're “idols”.
And finally, the LXX, which was produced by scholars who were fluent in both the Hebrew and Greek languages, translates the word “elilim” as “demons”.
So according to these scholars who lived much closer to the time that Hebrew psalm was written, the psalmist was saying that the gods of the nations were demons.
This fact of scripture is not only said in this psalm, but other places in scripture as well. (Deut 32:17, 1 Cor 10:20)
But perhaps most telling of all is Revelation 9:20………
Revelation 9:20
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.Do you see how they worshipped both demons AND man-made idols?
This is what I've been trying to tell Keith………. that even though some of the “gods” of the nations were not gods at all, but man-made idols, others of those gods were real, living spirit beings who are able to perform all kinds of supernatural acts, such as telling the future, inhabiting and controlling the bodies of human beings, commanding fire from heaven and mighty winds, turning wooden staffs into living snakes, producing frogs out of thin air, and bringing wrath down upon the Israelites.
Every example I just listed above is in the scriptures, Marty. I'm NOT making this stuff up.
When will you guys open your eyes to the truth of the scriptures?
I mean, look at Acts 17:18. People assumed that Paul was advocating another god because of the way he spoke about Jesus. And that's because in Biblical times, a god was anyone who could do the things angels, demons, Jesus, Satan, and Jehovah can do.
(Don't get me wrong, none of the others can do half the things Jehovah can, and none of them would even have the power to pick their own nose if not for that power being given to them from Jehovah.)
But it's high time you face the facts, Marty………. a powerful spirit being who can do supernatural acts was a god in Biblical times. Jehovah is the God OF all those other gods, and the MOST HIGH of them all.
This is what the scriptures teach. Believe them or don't………. it's really up to you.
Ok, Mike, how do you reconcile these two scriptures:Quote Deuteronomy 10:17
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.Quote
Isaiah 44:6New King James Version (NKJV)
There Is No Other God
6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,13:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2013,05:06) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,12:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,21:34) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,13:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 07 2013,22:02) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2013,18:29)
To human Israelites, the judges were gods, mighty ones. To angels, of course these judges weren't mighty ones, or gods.
Was it Moses that was made a god (mighty one) to pharaoh? Yet, is Moses a god to Jesus?
DavidExactly, and to true monotheistic believers they are not gods at all, but only gods made in the minds of men who believe in them or worship them.
WJ
No, David, Keith, God called the judges “gods”, but unless I have missed something, the Israelites did not call them “gods” but judges.If I am wrong David, Please show me where the people called the judges gods or individually “a god”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIt is not God calling the judges gods in Psalms 82.
Why would you assume the first 5 verses is the Lord speaking when it is clear the last 3 verses is the Psalmist?
No it is the Psalmist that called them gods but then says though he once called them gods now he declares they will die like men.
WJ
Hi Keith:I believe that it is God speaking because the psalmist begins the psalm by saying “God judges amongst the gods, and then in verse 2 through 7 it appears that it is God speaking to the judges telling them that they have judged unjustly and showing them why.
And because I don't see any other scripture to which Jesus refers when he answers the accusation by the Pharisees that he is making himself equal with God by stating that he is the Son of God in John 1O:33-36.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Verse one says God judges among the gods. If it is the Lord in the first person then why wouldn't it say “I the Lord judge among the gods?I believe it is the psalmist in vrs 2 that speaking to the judges just as all the other verses. IMO.
WJ
Well, Ok, if that is the case, to what was Jesus making reference in John 10:33f?Actually, the Hebrew scriptures translate the word “gods” as “angels”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyLook closely at John 10:33.
Jesus is not calling men gods. He is simply quoting the Psalmist in which he says is “Their Law”.
The reason he did that was a rebuke for their Hypocrisy by calling him a blasphemer for saying he was the Son of God while they themselves claimed to be gods in their law.
WJ
Marty,
You have it right this time. Here is the NET version of Psalm 82:
82:1 God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment.
82:2 He says, 6 “How long will you make unjust legal decisions and show favoritism to the wicked?”
Footnote #6 says:
The words “he says” are supplied in the translation to indicate that the following speech is God’s judicial decision (see v. 1).You and Keith are both wrong that these gods are men, though. When did a large group of Israelite judges ever assemble together with Jehovah, and have His judgment rendered against them?
And what sense would it make to tell a HUMAN BEING that he was going to die like a HUMAN BEING?
Don't ALL human beings die like human beings?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2013,05:40) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,13:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2013,05:06) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,12:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,21:34) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 07 2013,13:58) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 07 2013,22:02) Quote (david @ Sep. 03 2013,18:29)
To human Israelites, the judges were gods, mighty ones. To angels, of course these judges weren't mighty ones, or gods.
Was it Moses that was made a god (mighty one) to pharaoh? Yet, is Moses a god to Jesus?
DavidExactly, and to true monotheistic believers they are not gods at all, but only gods made in the minds of men who believe in them or worship them.
WJ
No, David, Keith, God called the judges “gods”, but unless I have missed something, the Israelites did not call them “gods” but judges.If I am wrong David, Please show me where the people called the judges gods or individually “a god”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyIt is not God calling the judges gods in Psalms 82.
Why would you assume the first 5 verses is the Lord speaking when it is clear the last 3 verses is the Psalmist?
No it is the Psalmist that called them gods but then says though he once called them gods now he declares they will die like men.
WJ
Hi Keith:I believe that it is God speaking because the psalmist begins the psalm by saying “God judges amongst the gods, and then in verse 2 through 7 it appears that it is God speaking to the judges telling them that they have judged unjustly and showing them why.
And because I don't see any other scripture to which Jesus refers when he answers the accusation by the Pharisees that he is making himself equal with God by stating that he is the Son of God in John 1O:33-36.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Verse one says God judges among the gods. If it is the Lord in the first person then why wouldn't it say “I the Lord judge among the gods?I believe it is the psalmist in vrs 2 that speaking to the judges just as all the other verses. IMO.
WJ
Well, Ok, if that is the case, to what was Jesus making reference in John 10:33f?Actually, the Hebrew scriptures translate the word “gods” as “angels”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyLook closely at John 10:33.
Jesus is not calling men gods. He is simply quoting the Psalmist in which he says is “Their Law”.
The reason he did that was a rebuke for their Hypocrisy by calling him a blasphemer for saying he was the Son of God while they themselves claimed to be gods in their law.
WJ
Hi Kieth:I cannot understand that way because of following verse. When Jesus referred to their Law, I believe he meant the Mosaic Law.
Quote
Jhn 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;And to be sure, He called Jesus god, and Jesus is a man:
Quote
Hbr 1:7
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hbr 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hbr 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Quote
1Ti 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,12:33) Ok, Mike, how do you reconcile these two scriptures: Quote Deuteronomy 10:17
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.Quote
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
First of all Marty, ask yourself WHY Moses needed to distinguish Jehovah as the “god OF other gods”, and “the great, mighty and awesome god”……….. IF……. Jehovah was literally the ONLY god?But to answer your question, it is obvious that Jehovah's words in Isaiah 44:6 were emphatic, and not to be taken as if He is LITERALLY the ONLY elohim in existence. That would go AGAINST many, many scriptures……… including Psalm 82.
You are right that it was Jehovah who assembled with other gods, and rendered judgment against them. And you are right that the “He” was Jehovah, when Jesus said, “if He called them gods……”.
But even if you INSIST that Psalm 82 was about human judges, the fact still remains that Jehovah Himself called these human judges “elohim”. So how then could He say that He was the ONLY elohim – unless He was speaking EMPHATICALLY as a way of placing Himself ABOVE the other elohim?
There are only three choices, Marty:
1. Jehovah was speaking emphatically in Isaiah 44:6.
2. Jehovah was LYING in Isaiah 44:6.
3. Jehovah was LYING in Psalm 82, and a couple hundred other scriptures where He speaks about other gods.Jehovah can't lie, so the only sensible conclusion is #1. And there is a lot of scriptural support of emphatic statements in scripture.
1. Jehovah also emphatically called Himself the ONLY savior – when we know He sent many other saviors.
2. Jesus and the disciples are said to know “ALL THINGS”, when we know that they don't LITERALLY know ALL things.
3. Jesus said that only Jehovah is good, which, if taken LITERALLY, would mean that Jesus and every other faithful servant of Jehovah is bad, or evil.
Here is one where Paul actually EXPLAINS to us that he was speaking emphatically:
1 Corinthians 15:27 NIV
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.Do you see how his second sentence actually explains to us that the first sentence is meant to be taken emphatically, and not literally?
Marty, Jehovah could not possibly be the MOST HIGH god if no less high gods existed.
He could not possibly be the god OF gods if no other gods existed for Him to be the god OF.
peace,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,11:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,17:36) What does David mean in Psalm 29, where he says, “Worship Him all you gods”?
First of all Mike it is Psalms 97:7All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols — worship him, all you gods !
Look at the context, the Psalmist clarifies that the gods are images and idols that they worship.
Sorry, I had two psalms mixed up in my head. But since you posted 97, here are some thoughts:The word translated as “idols” in your translation is really the Hebrew word “elilim” – which means “worthless (thing)”.
On several occasions, the LXX translates this word as “demons”.
So, just like Revelation 9:20, which clearly distinguishes between the demons that some people worship, and the man-made idols that other people worship, this psalm could likewise be distinguishing between those two objects of worship.
It is interesting to note that the LXX translates “elohim (gods)” in this psalm as “aggelos (angels)”. Remember that for my next post, okay?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,11:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,17:36) Can a man-made idol worship Jehovah?
Well can mountains and hills sing, and trees clap their hands, and rocks praise him?
So is your answer “YES Mike, man-made images CAN worship Jehovah!” ?Because if your answer is yes, please just clearly state for the record that you believe man-made idols are capable of worshipping Jehovah.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,11:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,23:22)
The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.Do you see how they worshipped both demons AND man-made idols?
1. So does this mean demons are gods to you too Mike?2. Where in scripture does Jesus or any of the Apostles refer to demons as gods?
1. No Keith. I am aligned with Paul. While I acknowledge that there are indeed many gods, for me there is but one God, the Father.2. Not just demons, Keith. Also faithful angels of Jehovah. Jesus confirms that these spirit beings are gods in John 10:34.
And in 1 Cor 10:20, Paul confirms that the gods of the pagans are demons.
But why would you now tighten the parameters of the search? Why must it all of a sudden be Jesus or Apostles? Are the words of Moses and David all of a sudden not good enough for you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:25) Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,12:33) Ok, Mike, how do you reconcile these two scriptures: Quote Deuteronomy 10:17
For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.Quote
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
First of all Marty, ask yourself WHY Moses needed to distinguish Jehovah as the “god OF other gods”, and “the great, mighty and awesome god”……….. IF……. Jehovah was literally the ONLY god?But to answer your question, it is obvious that Jehovah's words in Isaiah 44:6 were emphatic, and not to be taken as if He is LITERALLY the ONLY elohim in existence. That would go AGAINST many, many scriptures……… including Psalm 82.
You are right that it was Jehovah who assembled with other gods, and rendered judgment against them. And you are right that the “He” was Jehovah, when Jesus said, “if He called them gods……”.
But even if you INSIST that Psalm 82 was about human judges, the fact still remains that Jehovah Himself called these human judges “elohim”. So how then could He say that He was the ONLY elohim – unless He was speaking EMPHATICALLY as a way of placing Himself ABOVE the other elohim?
There are only three choices, Marty:
1. Jehovah was speaking emphatically in Isaiah 44:6.
2. Jehovah was LYING in Isaiah 44:6.
3. Jehovah was LYING in Psalm 82, and a couple hundred other scriptures where He speaks about other gods.Jehovah can't lie, so the only sensible conclusion is #1. And there is a lot of scriptural support of emphatic statements in scripture.
1. Jehovah also emphatically called Himself the ONLY savior – when we know He sent many other saviors.
2. Jesus and the disciples are said to know “ALL THINGS”, when we know that they don't LITERALLY know ALL things.
3. Jesus said that only Jehovah is good, which, if taken LITERALLY, would mean that Jesus and every other faithful servant of Jehovah is bad, or evil.
Here is one where Paul actually EXPLAINS to us that he was speaking emphatically:
1 Corinthians 15:27 NIV
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.Do you see how his second sentence actually explains to us that the first sentence is meant to be taken emphatically, and not literally?
Marty, Jehovah could not possibly be the MOST HIGH god if no less high gods existed.
He could not possibly be the god OF gods if no other gods existed for Him to be the god OF.
peace,
mike
Well, no, I have already showed you by the scriptures, that although there are the so called gods of the nations, they are not gods at all, but the people may worship anyone or anything as a god or gods.And although He, God, called those who were acting as His representatives “gods” or in Jesus case “god”, they are not literally gods or god but represent the “Only True God”.
And if the scriptures state their were many saviours, they went as His representatives, and without Him they could do nothing.
The devil or Satan who is called the god of this world does have the power to deceive and power to kill through men, but he would have no power except that God allows it.
Quote
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Quote
Jhn 19:10
Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jhn 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.Quote
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.He said it Mike, and so, why not believe Him. He is God and there is no other, although there may be those that are called gods, they are not literally gods or god at all.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,12:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,17:36) How about when he says that Jehovah made mankind a little lower than the gods? Were we made a little lower than man-made idols?
MikeWhere is the scripture that says this?
The Septuagint reads…
Thou madest him a little less than angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honour Ps 8:5
All the major translations read “lower than God” or “lower than angels”.
The Apostle Paul reads it as “Angels” also and uses the Greek word for angels, which is “aggelos” instead of the word “theos”.
THOU MADEST HIM A LITTLE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS
In Hebrew, Psalm 8:5 says “a little lower than the elohim”.If “elohim” refers to Jehovah here, then the LXX scholars and Paul both missed the point…….. because they believe it refers to many beings. And yes, they both understand it to refer to angels, but then again, we know that angels ARE called gods in scripture, aren't they?
Did you remember that bolded part I told you to remember two posts ago? It applies here. Because in Psalm 97:7, where virtually every English translation has “worship him all you gods“, the LXX has “worship him all you angels“.
The early Trinitarians, in their haste to eliminate all other gods in the scriptures (so they could then claim that Jesus must be that “ONLY” god), have left themselves in a predicament here. They all KNEW that the Hebrew word David used was “elohim”. And they all KNEW that the LXX and Paul translated that word as “angels”. So basically, they KNEW that this psalm referred to multiple beings who were called “elohim”. And I'm sure they KNEW that the LXX also translated “elohim” as “angels” in Psalm 97:7. And I'm quite sure they KNEW that angels of Jehovah are called gods in other scriptures.
But they didn't WANT to translate this verse as “gods” – even though it matches perfectly with Gen 3:5 and 3:22, where Adam and Eve ate of the fruit and did indeed become “like the gods, knowing good and evil”. And because of their selfish, biased desires, we have conflicting scriptures. Was man made a little lower than Jehovah Himself? Or lower than the angels? Which one?
But things are changing, Keith. Today's translators KNOW that we all have the internet, and that we can check for ourselves what the scriptures actually say. We are no longer bound to taking their word for it, like we used to be. And that's why these more recent TRINITARIAN translations have moved away from the typical “angels” or “God” translations of this psalm:
NET ©
and make them a little less than the heavenly beings……….NIV ©
You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings………MSG ©
Yet we've so narrowly missed being gods…………BBE ©
For you have made him only a little lower than the gods………..English Standard Version ©
Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings…………..International Standard Version ©
You made him a little less than divine……….So the bottom line answer to your question is that David, in Psalm 8:5, said that mankind was created a little lower than the gods.
And he surely DIDN'T mean that we were created lower than man-made idols.
Paul confirms that these gods were indeed angels of Jehovah.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 09 2013,12:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2013,18:32) Keith, you are outgunned here. Give up the fight.
Ha Ha! I know you want me to go away and I will.But it seems to me that every time you shoot your Polytheistic cap gun it gets destroyed by an atomic barrage of scriptures!
WJ
I didn't tell you to go away, Keith. I enjoy showing you the scriptures that might eventually lead you to a more accurate Biblical understanding.Why do you suppose your only defense to the many gods described in scripture is “They were man-made idols and men, Mike!”?
You haven't been able to successfully refute even one of the scriptural claims I've made, Keith.
The fact will continue to remain that there do indeed exist many gods, both in heaven and on earth. But for Christians, there is but one God, the Father. He is the MOST HIGH God, and the God OF all the other gods.
(Jesus is one of those gods that He is the God OF, Keith.)
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,16:43) And if the scriptures state there were many saviours, they went as His representatives, and without Him they could do nothing.
The scriptures DO state that, Marty. I'm sure you realize that Jesus is one of those saviors, right? And Nehemiah 9:27 speaks of saviors that Jehovah has sent, while Obadiah 1:21 speaks of saviors Jehovah will send.So how do YOU reconcile those two scriptures with Isaiah 43:11? If you say these other saviors were God's “representatives”, I won't argue with you, because that much is true. But if you say that, then you must also concede that the statement “there is no savior besides me” in Is 43:11 is emphatic.
What I don't see you doing is calling these saviors Jehovah sent “false saviors”, or “so-called saviors”. Why not? Why would you explain that these OTHER saviors “went as His representatives, and without Him they could do nothing”, but you won't say the same exact thing about the other gods?
Quote (942767 @ Sep. 09 2013,16:43) And although He, God, called those who were acting as His representatives “gods” or in Jesus case “god”, they are not literally gods or god but represent the “Only True God”.
And were the other saviors literally saviors?You display a clear double standard, Marty. You clearly understand that Jesus is not evil just because “only God is good”. You understand that when “everything” is placed at Jesus' feet, it doesn't LITERALLY include God as well. You understand that the saviors God sent, like Jesus Christ, were truly saviors, and that the statement “there is no savior besides me” is emphatic, and not literal. You understand that it means God is the ultimate savior, and these other ones wouldn't be saviors at all if not for Him.
But you don't understand these same things when it comes to the word “god”. And that, my friend, is because you can't stop defining “god” as “The Most High Creator of All Things”. If that was the Biblical definition of “el” or “theos”, then I'd be right with you declaring there is LITERALLY only one of them.
But that is NOT the definition of “el” and “theos” in scripture. This is: Any of various beings conceived of as supernatural, immortal, and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature.
If you ever allow yourself to accept this accurate scriptural definition of “god”, then you will come to understand that while many of these beings exist, Jehovah alone is the MOST HIGH among them, and the God and Creator OF all the other ones.
Until that time, there is no need for us to talk further on this subject. Because right now, it's like I'm showing you that many buildings exist, while you're insisting that the word “building” means “ONLY the Empire State Building”.
Just keep remembering how you understand the emphatic concepts of “none good but God”, and “everything is placed at his feet”, and “know all things” and “no savior besides me”……….. but you REFUSE to understand that same exact concept when it comes to the word “god”.
And never forget that Jehovah couldn't possibly be the MOST HIGH god if there existed no less high gods.
Nor could He be the god OF gods if there existed no other gods for Him to be the god OF.
Marty………You have it right there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD, Just as Jesus said and if he said there is ONLY ONE “TRUE: then all others are “FALSE” Gods. So while there are many “FALSE” God there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD, and yes The ONLY TRUE GOD is also the GOD of all those FALSE GODS to.
Marty remember the saying, it is hard to corner a snake in a brier patch. God said emphatically he looked and found “NO OTHER GODS”, but some think they know more then He does and are able to tell us what he “REALLY” means, They are not able to understand the word GOD is a “PERSONALLY” Applied word that can ONLY APPLY to the PERSON themselves. So any one can have another GOD to themselves, but those personal God are false God to everyone else except them and we are told we are not to have any other GOD besides the “ONLY” TRUE” GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Marty……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 10 2013,21:12) Marty………You have it right there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD, Just as Jesus said and if he said there is ONLY ONE “TRUE: then all others are “FALSE” Gods. So while there are many “FALSE” God there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD, and yes The ONLY TRUE GOD is also the GOD of all those FALSE GODS to. Marty remember the saying, it is hard to corner a snake in a brier patch. God said emphatically he looked and found “NO OTHER GODS”, but some think they know more then He does and are able to tell us what he “REALLY” means, They are not able to understand the word GOD is a “PERSONALLY” Applied word that can ONLY APPLY to the PERSON themselves. So any one can have another GOD to themselves, but those personal God are false God to everyone else except them and we are told we are not to have any other GOD besides the “ONLY” TRUE” GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Marty……………………………gene
geneyou would compliment the devil himself ;for the way he does make himself “A ANGEL OF LIGHT “
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2013,02:12) Marty………You have it right there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD, Just as Jesus said and if he said there is ONLY ONE “TRUE: then all others are “FALSE” Gods. So while there are many “FALSE” God there is ONLY ONE “TRUE” GOD, and yes The ONLY TRUE GOD is also the GOD of all those FALSE GODS to. Marty remember the saying, it is hard to corner a snake in a brier patch. God said emphatically he looked and found “NO OTHER GODS”, but some think they know more then He does and are able to tell us what he “REALLY” means, They are not able to understand the word GOD is a “PERSONALLY” Applied word that can ONLY APPLY to the PERSON themselves. So any one can have another GOD to themselves, but those personal God are false God to everyone else except them and we are told we are not to have any other GOD besides the “ONLY” TRUE” GOD. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Marty……………………………gene
Hi Gene:This is the scripture:
Quote
1Cr 8:5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Cr 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
There are definitely “so called gods” in this world, and I used to have a few myself prior to being saved.
God said he was the Only God and there was no God before Him or will there ever be another, and that is what I will teach.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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