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Hey, all: I just wanted to note that “Lucifer” is a Latin word , and did not exist in the original Hebrew text; therefore, it is an establishment of man, and has no place in the discussion of “hassatan”, “the accuser” (of the brethren), except to say that the name is not essential to the discussion.
The original text says something more like:
“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn! <—(this is translated Lucifer in latin vulgate)
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!”And yet, it is not speaking of hassatan here, since it says “…who weakened the nations.”
In the teaching of “how satan became satan, they say this beautiful, illustrious story of: 'oh, ya know, once upon a time, in a magical castle in a far away land, where there were beautiful rows of four-leaf clovers and leprechauns (!!), (and the Care Bears dwell in that place) and one day, as recorded in Isaiah, he was cast down from heaven!” Oh, wait a sec… it says that he who weakened the nations is cast down! And there were no nations of men when satan supposedly “became” satan, according to them, since this happened before the earth was formed.
Not only this, but the one who has fallen is later in v16 described as a “man”:
“Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man
who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms…”
And ofcourse, this man is the the Man of Sin, if you read Daniel, you will see that their words are the same words “I will ascend into heaven” he even opposes God, so…
right, there's no such thing as lucifer, it was never hassatan, and we don't know where hassatan came from.Quote (Irene @ July 22 2008,17:58) Isaiah 14:12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Satan wanted to be God. The Bible tells us in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan has become the “god of this world”. And Revelation 20:10 tells us that he will be eternally punished for it.15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.
Peace and Love Irene
Hello Irene,Did you ever notice in Isaiah how it says,” I will ascend into heaven.”
Doesn't sound like an angel who already dwells in heaven with God does it?
Nick Now wait a minute. It states that Satan fell from Heaven and His Angels with Him. So what are you saying that Satan still has access to Heaven? I thought all that happened before the earth was recreated. I know this is my opinion, and I could be wrong, but when the earth was created the Angels shouted for joy. Do you believe that they did when it was void and empty like it says in Genesis? IMO Satan was cast down to take care of this planet and made a mess if it. He was in Paradise when He tempted Eve. And when He tempted Jesus. Satan wanted Jesus to worship Him and He was going to give Him this earth. This earth is being captive by Satan and some of His Angels. The worse of the Angels are chained up, until God's wrath. When I make a post I do not consider myself a teacher. I am only giving others my opinion, that is all.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Hanoch @ July 22 2008,22:23) LOL yeah Jodi go get'em hahaha gimme a high-five! ::smack:: hahaha
High five back at ya!
So brother Hanoch, who was this star of morning you think that is mentioned in the scriptures?
I am interested to know.
Thanks and blessings
AdamQuote (Irene @ July 23 2008,17:43) Nick Now wait a minute. It states that Satan fell from Heaven and His Angels with Him. So what are you saying that Satan still has access to Heaven? I thought all that happened before the earth was recreated. I know this is my opinion, and I could be wrong, but when the earth was created the Angels shouted for joy. Do you believe that they did when it was void and empty like it says in Genesis? IMO Satan was cast down to take care of this planet and made a mess if it. He was in Paradise when He tempted Eve. And when He tempted Jesus. Satan wanted Jesus to worship Him and He was going to give Him this earth. This earth is being captive by Satan and some of His Angels. The worse of the Angels are chained up, until God's wrath. When I make a post I do not consider myself a teacher. I am only giving others my opinion, that is all.
Peace and Love Irene
Hmmmm. I see.The word heaven in Revelation 12 could not possibly represent God's kingdom, but is representative of the kingdoms of men who have High power and who believe they are above all else.
As I have mentioned before, the idea that an angel in YHWH's presence could make war against Him in His Holy and righteous kingdom is absurd, and it completely destroys YHWH's reputation and that of the kind of 'place' God's kingdom is.
Man cannot enter into God's kingdom as a liar, or a sinner, he has to be made pure first. I would imagine that ALL of God's creatures God holds the same standards to.
For even Jesus says in Luke 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.
Angels dwelling in God's kingdom sinned and divided God's Holy kingdom? Nonsense.
God's Kingdom is a place of Holiness and peace, not of sin by created creatures or wars made by them.
Revelation is a sign, with symbols of what was to come on earth concerning man and man's kingdoms.
Revelation 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
Revelation 17:9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. 12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
All throughout the bible and history we see kings rise and fall. They fall because their hearts are full of pride and they oppress people because of it. Kings that follow the ways of the flesh and not the ways of God, must be brought down.
The serpent of old called the adversary and the slanderer, was cast down. Adam was cast out of the Garden, Cain was cast out of his home to be a vagabond. Adam was the first man and the first husband, he was to rule the whole earth. Cain was the firstborn, given Adam's inheritance. Since these men we have seen a pattern throughout all history of people who are in a high positions and fall because of their ignorance, inexperience and PRIDE. They follow their flesh and thus darkness, instead of the light of God.
Through one man, Adam, sin entered the world. Cain was a murderer and a liar.
How well does it fit if we view Adam as the serpent and Cain as the serpent's seed. If you are of the serpent you are of the mind-set that wants to be great like God, but is ignorant. If you are of the mind of the serpents seed then you are not only ignorant and full of pride but you also fear death and are driven to serve your flesh.
We must renew our minds and not walk in the ways of this world, according to the offenses of men.
Ro 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
Christ turned the darkness into light. He is the truth, the life and the resurrection. We know longer have to be slaves of our flesh and serve our fears of death. We know that we have life through Christ and that works against fearing death.
Honor and Glory to YHWH, for the day when He destroys the last enemy death, for no one will be left to walk in it's darkness again!
Jodi………As you say, you nailed it kid, The whole concept of a Satan has been distorted by “Christianity” as well as other things, it has it's origin in paganism, these false teachings crept into religion, and God forded ancient Israel through Moses to practice or teach these false ideologies. At the time of Christ these false teachings were so common the people through every kind of mental illness were some kind of demoniacs effecting the person, all this stemmed from pagan practices.
Love to you and yours Jodi………gene
Hi GB,
Would you label Jesus Christ as a pagan because he taught of Satan and demons?
Then whom do you follow? Who else has the words of eternal life?Quote (gollamudi @ July 23 2008,20:15) So brother Hanoch, who was this star of morning you think that is mentioned in the scriptures?
I am interested to know.
Thanks and blessings
Adam
sorry brother, lol, but she had a good point…To be honest, I truly do not know; I can stipulate that it is the selfsame “little horn” in the Book of Daniel, who makes the very same boastings in Daniel as is listed in Isaiah.
You know what, man, I don't have revelation about this… but I'd say it was pretty odd…
in Ezekiel, check it, there are two separate prophecies given back-to-back… one is addressing a man who is the King of Tyre, and the other is addressing the King of Tyre as a cherub… whoa, go figure that one out… unless one is for the man and one is for the spirit of a fallen cherub??…. dude!Ez 28:1-19
v 9 “'Will you still say, “I am a god,”
In the presence of your slayer,
Though you are a man and not God,”
v 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there…”Both speaking of the King of Tyre
Let's not draw conclusions simply to say we have an answer:
“If the Lord does not build the house, they who labor do so in vain.”
Hi brother Hanoch,
Thanks for your response and I agree with you because of your openness. But I want to know whether he was a man or angel? It says here “you are a man” as well as “Anointed Cherub”
Let us ponder into the scripture more.
Thanks
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ July 24 2008,19:13) Hi brother Hanoch,
Thanks for your response and I agree with you because of your openness. But I want to know whether he was a man or angel? It says here “you are a man” as well as “Anointed Cherub”
Let us ponder into the scripture more.
Thanks
AdamWell, it DOES say…
” 'Here shall stand [in the place of torment they are assigned to – written of in the concluding verses of the previous chapter, Enoch 18) the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods,” -Enoch 19:1
So, perhaps the Scripture is addressing them both…?
Enoch talks about the spirits of the Nephilim (the children born to humans and angels) being the evil spirits in the earth, so is it now possible that the spirits of the fallen angels are also a sort of oppressive spirit in the earth?
Angels are not humans in Enoch; Enoch lists different creatures in the heavenlies; among them are:
3)The Elect One of Righteousness: 39:6a-7b, etc., 40:6
and
4) The elect ones (…seeming as if to mirror Jesus' words, possibly…) Enoch 40:6and it mentions angels elsewhere, but it goes to reason that elect ones are humans and angels are angels, in their own subcategories… so Ezekiel cannot be speaking to a human, calling him an angel.
Hi H,
There are elect angels.
1 Timothy 5:21
I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.The basic idea is that angels are not humans and humans are not angels:
God said in Enoch “..for this reason I gave men wives, so that they would want nothing.”
Therefore, the angels were punished, because wives were not meant for angels.
Therefore, there is a clear distinction between angels and men.the book of enoch explains this and many other fascinating truths that have been concealed. the sons of god in genesis does refer to angels. they were called the watchers and they were led by an angel named semjaza. it even tells us the number being two hundred. they took themselves wives and also taught man kind in many fields such as astrology, herbs, forging metals…etc..
secondly they had not been led by satan or it would have named him there leader, also they chose to leave there dwelling, and these angels are bound in tartarus till the day of judgement. now satan did not leave his first estate obviosly by jobs words of the sons of god assembled before the lord and satan came with them. now god asks satan were have though been and he states walking the earth to and fro. so this confirms that after the imprisonment of the fallen angels satan is still free to travel as he pleases, until revelation when he shall be cast from heaven by micheal and his angels, and this is when a third of the hosts of heaven follow him. still he is not bound for it says that… Rejoice o heavens but woe to the inhabitants of the earth for the devil has come down unto you for he has great wrath knowing his time is short. now is satans full force in the world and then in chapter 20 he is bound for a thousand years then he is let loose to once agian decieve the nations.nick
the book of enoch has been like a rosetta stone for me on unlocking the meaning of many deep scriptures pointing out the messiah and the order of the kingdom. for as enoch says at the beginning the visions shown unto were not for the understanding of his generation but for remote or far distance one to come
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