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Hi David:
You asked:
Quote Hi Marty, how are you? I don't see you on here as much anymore. I am doing very well, David, and I hope that you and your family are also doing well.
I am not as active on this website any more because many of the topics have been rehashed over and over again, and once I have given my understanding on a topic, and have listened to what others had to say to see if I needed to be corrected, then I see no point in continuing in the discussion.
And about the following:
Quote Quote
God said that He doesn't change, and if He was able to heal both physical and spiritual illness in the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles, then He can surely do it now.marty, I never said he couldn't. Surely he could do a lot of things now that he doesn't do.
No, David you did not say that He couldn't, but you did say that the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the ministry of the Apostles, and no, David, they did not. The book of the Acts of the Apostles, is the only book in the New Testament which does not end in the word “amen”, and that is because it is an open book and the Acts that were done in their ministry are ongoing, and will continue until the Lord comes for the church. When the church is raptured then these gifts will cease. There will be any need for them at that time, and that is what is meant by the scripture that you ascribe to mean that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the ministry of the Apostles. But that scripture states that Love is for an eternity. It will never cease in the in the Kingdom of God.
(I know that I personally speaking in an unknown tongue. It is a “gift of the Spirit”, and it works to intercede for me when I do not know what to pray, and it works to edify me, as the scripture states.)
And you stated:
Quote I do not remember Jesus or the apostles saying: 'This might heal right away if you believe enough, but it may take some time, or you might want to see a physician.' Jesus had a 100% success rate. What we have here is a person wanting to believe. If the person feels better right away, it is viewed as miracle. (people get better by themselves, but that is not mentioned) If it takes a while, they it is still a miracle. (people often get better over time by themselves, but that is not mentioned, it's a miracle.) If it doesn't happen this way, God may heal you through a doctor which you have to go see. (How is any of this different than any other person on the planet?) Jesus healed all that came to him believing that God would heal them through him, but sometimes he did not do it instantaneously, but asked them to do something that demonstrated their faith in the process of healing them. For example:
Quote Luke 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: 13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
And the scripture states:
Quote Matthew 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I did not see anyone coming to Jesus for healing for a blood pressure problem, and maybe that is why you do not remember any of the Apostles saying that someone had to wait for a healing, but I have learned through my personal experience that although God can heal this instantaneously, if He did, and I did not change my lifestyle, the healing would not do me any good because I would soon be in the same condition, and so, common sense, tells me that I have to change my lifestyle, inorder to receive my healing.
And the difference between a believer and a nonbeliever who may receive a healing through a doctor is that a believer, if he has exercised his faith in God's Word for his healing by doing what the Word states in James 5, the believer is putting his faith in God for the healing rather than in the doctor. The unbeliever may receive relief from a situation through a doctor, but may not be healed. There is a difference. A pill for this and a pill for that is not a healing.
Also, we are not expected to live in this body forever, and sometimes when a prayer for healing is made the person may pass away especially, in the case of an elderly person, and in essence, although they were not allowed to continue in their physical body, they are healed.
This is the scripture that I am using to support the above statement:
Quote John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified therebyIf he stated that this sickness was not unto death, it follows that there must be sickness that is unto death, and common sense tells me that death in this life is a reality.
And finally, regarding the following:
Quote All of the gifts of the Spirit are still active in the “true church of the living God”. If you can name this church that would be great. Thanks.
The true church of the “Living God” are those who have believed the gospel and been born again having been raised from the dead(or spiritual separation from God) by the same Holy Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.
Quote 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Sp
irit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
I am currently attending a church where God has shown me that I will be ordained as the overseer of the church.
Is there a church in your area where God is confirming His Word with the same healings and miracles that He did in the ministry of the of our Lord and the Apostles. If so, this is the true church.
No doubt, however, there may be members of the true church of the Living God in every denomination, and God is saying to them:
Quote
Revelation 18King James Version (KJV)
18 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues
Quote Number 897 Transliteration:
Babulon {bab-oo-lone'}
Word Origin:
of Hebrew origin 894
TDNT:
1:514,89
Part of Speech:
proper name location
Usage in the KJV:
Babylon 12
Total: 12
Definition:
Babylon = “confusion”
This confusion has been caused by those in authority who have added or taken away from the Word of God, and therefore, He cannot confirm what they teach. Things like the “Trinity doctrine” and “Jesus is God the Son” and “the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the ministry of the Apostles” and other such statements such as these which men have added to God's Word have caused this confusion. This is spiritual fornication of God's Word.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi David, the two links that I gave you a page ago,
Just ignore the first link, it isn't related, sorry about that.
God bless.Quote (I know that I personally speaking in an unknown tongue. It is a “gift of the Spirit”, and it works to intercede for me when I do not know what to pray, and it works to edify me, as the scripture states.) Hi Marty.
I'm curious if you have ever spoken in any different tongues, like in the days of the apostles, where a translator was sometimes needed?
(I take it to mean that they were speaking in other languages, so that they could spread the good news more quickly. Sometimes, maybe many people spoke a different language, and one of the apostles would speak in that language using the gift of speaking in a different tongue (language), but if a few people there spoke some other language, a translator was needed.
Does what you do compare? Is it the same? Or, has this gift of the spirit ceased, as was said it would?
Quote I did not see anyone coming to Jesus for healing for a blood pressure problem, and maybe that is why you do not remember any of the Apostles saying that someone had to wait for a healing, but I have learned through my personal experience that although God can heal this instantaneously, if He did, and I did not change my lifestyle, the healing would not do me any good because I would soon be in the same condition, and so, common sense, tells me that I have to change my lifestyle, inorder to receive my healing. 94, so really, this means it is up to YOU to create the change. And you are saying when YOU change, then you will be healed, after YOU change. Again, is it you who are doing something, or is it Gid who is healing you miraculously?
Quote And the difference between a believer and a nonbeliever who may receive a healing through a doctor is that a believer, if he has exercised his faith in God's Word for his healing by doing what the Word states in James 5, the believer is putting his faith in God for the healing rather than in the doctor. The unbeliever may receive relief from a situation through a doctor, but may not be healed. There is a difference. A pill for this and a pill for that is not a healing. Pills, whether sugar placebos or real medication, affect atheists and believers alike. Similarly, if you believe in a faith healer, it often has some sort of effect. Placebos (belief) is extraordinarily strong.
Marty,
I believe that the gifts of the spirit including that of speaking in tongues ceased.
You believe you are speaking in tongues sometimes and that it is prayer language.
But, was it just this back then?
Interesting point about them all speaking the same language.
What do you make of this:
“All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.” (Acts 2:4; NIV)“and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.” (Acts 2:4; NW)
OK, actually, I just read the next couple verses:
ACTS 2:4-6
“and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance. As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.”It is obvious that this speaking in “different tongues” (languages) was for the benefit of those who spoke different languages. The verse says there were people dwelling in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven. So, there was a need for them to somehow hear this message, in their own language.
ACTS 2:7-12
“Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·le′ans, are they not? And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? Par′thi·ans and Medes and E′lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta′mi·a, and Ju·de′a and Cap·pa·do′ci·a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, and Phryg′i·a and Pam·phyl′i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y·a, which is toward Cy·re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” Yes, they were all astonished and were in perplexity, saying one to another: “What does this thing purport to be?””Quote
People overlook that fact that in that upper room, where they received the Holy Ghost, there was no one present who did not speak the same language. That speaking in tongues was not the same gift manifested later to that crowd of milti-languaged people.So the speaking in tongues in the upper room was not the same. This was the tongue given to people when they first are Baptized with the Holy Ghost. It is a heavenly language; not an earthly language. It had no need for interpretation.
Obviously, it has “no need for interpretation” because “Par′thi·ans and Medes and E′lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta′mi·a, and Ju·de′a and Cap·pa·do′ci·a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, and Phryg′i·a and Pam·phyl′i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y·a, which is toward Cy·re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues
They could understand their own langauge. No need for interpretation there.
The only need for interpretation was when someone spoke in a tongue for the benefit of others and someone else there could not understand that language. (ie: Someone who normally speaks Greek, is speaking before a crowd of people, some of whom speak Greek and some of whom speak Coptic, and for the benefit of those who speak Coptic, he is speaking in tongues, in coptic. But the people who speak Greek cannot understand. So, now we need an interpreter.)
Marty,
Posted: Oct. 02 2005,15:42
“My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the Spirit, but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God.”—1 John 4:1, Today’s English Version.“Beloved ones . . . test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” (Acts 17:11; See also 1 Thes 5:20,21)
Even in the first century, the apostle Paul was compelled to write the congregation in Corinth to correct their view of why the gift of tongues was given to early Christians. Seemingly, some had become fascinated with the gift of tongues, and they were acting like little children, spiritually immature. Too much importance was being attached to “tongues.” (1 Corinthians 14:1-39) Paul emphasized that not all Christians in the first century spoke in miraculous tongues. It was not necessary to their salvation. Even back then when it existed, the gift of tongues was secondary to miraculous prophesying. Speaking in tongues was not, and is not, a requirement for Christians to gain everlasting life.—1 Corinthians 12:29, 30; 14:4, 5.
Among those ‘speaking in tongues’ today are Pentecostals and Baptists, also Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, and Presbyterians, and a few others such as Nick.SOME QUESTIONS TO PONDER for people who like to ponder:
In the first century, the miraculous gifts of the spirit, including the ability to “speak in tongues,” verified that God’s favor had shifted from the 1500 year old Jewish system of worship to the newly established Christian congregation. Is that not what Hebrews 2:2-4 says? Since that objective was accomplished in the first century, is it necessary to prove the same thing again and again in our day?
In the first century, the ability to “speak in tongues” gave impetus to the international work of witnessing that Jesus had commissioned his followers to do. (Acts 1:8; 2:1-11; Matt. 28:19) It was a practical means to spread the good news on an international scale in a short time, contributing to the numerical growth and upbuilding of the infant congregation of Christians. Is that how those who “speak in tongues” use that ability today?
In the first century, when Christians ‘spoke in tongues,’ what they said had meaning to people who knew those languages. (Acts 2:4, 8) Today, is it not true that ‘speaking in tongues’ usually involves an ecstatic outburst of unintelligible sounds?
In the first century, the Bible shows, congregations were to limit the ‘speaking in tongues’ to two or three persons who might do that at any given meeting; they were to do it “each in turn,” and if there was no interpreter present they were to keep silent. (1 Cor. 14:27, 28, RS) Is that what is being done today?
THESE QUESTIONS DESERVE MORE THAN A CURSORY ANSWER. Why? Because we want our worship to have God’s approval and blessing. We must make sure we are not deceiving ourselves or being deceived. We must therefore put what the Bible says ahead of our personal experience, as hard as that is to do.
ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS TODAY IDENTIFIED BY THE ABILITY TO “SPEAK IN TONGUES?”
John 13:35: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”
Love is the primary fruitage of God’s holy spirit; the others are “joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (I’ve wondered how self-controlled a person is when they are knocked off their chairs and shout in different tongues. And I wonder who is controlling them? Sometimes, it looks more like they’re almost being attacked to me. Is that God’s spirit in action?)1 Cor. 13:1, 8: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal. Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease.”
JESUS SAID THAT HOLY SPIRIT WOULD COME UPON HIS FOLLOWERS and that they would be witnesses of him to the MOST DISTANT PART OF THE EARTH. (Read Acts 1:8) He instructed them to “make disciples of people of all the nations.” (Matt. 28:19) He also foretold that ‘this good news of the kingdom would be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all nations.’ (Matt. 24:14) In harmony with what Jesus said, should we not look for this as an evidence that a group has holy spirit?
DOES NOT Mark 16:17, 18 (KJ) SHOW THAT THE ABILITY TO “SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES” WOULD BE A SIGN IDENTIFYING BELIEVERS?
It should be noted that these verses refer not only to ‘speaking with new tongues’ but also to handling serpents and drinking deadly poison. Are all who “speak in tongues” also encouraging these practices?
It should also be noted that these verses are not accepted by all Bible scholars.
These verses appear in certain Bible manuscripts and versions of the fifth and sixth centuries C.E. But they do not appear in the older Greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vatican MS. 1209 of the fourth century. Dr. B. F. Westcott, an authority on Bible manuscripts, said that “the verses . . . are no part of the original narrative but an appendage.” (An Introduction to the Study of the Gospels, London, 1881, p. 338) Bible translator Jerome, in the fifth century, said that “almost all the Greek codices [are] without this passage.” (The Last Twelve Verses of the Gospel According to S. Mark, London, 1871, J. W. Burgon, p. 53) The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) says: “Its vocabulary and style differ so radically from the rest of the Gospel that it hardly seems possible Mark himself composed it [that is, verses 9-20].” (Vol. IX, p. 240) Tregelles, a noted nineteenth-century Bible scholar, states: “Eusebius, Gregory of Nyssa, Victor of Antioch, Severus of Antioch, Jerome, as well as other writers, especially Greeks, testify that these verses were not written by St. Mark, or not found in the best copies.”
There is no record that early Christians either drank poison or handled serpents to prove they were believers.
But even if these words were part of Mark’s inspired writings (although the bulk of evidence shows they are not) there is nothing in them contrary to the Scriptural evidence that tongues would pass away following the death of the apostles. (See below.)CAN THE ABILITY TO “SPEAK IN TONGUES” COME FROM A SOURCE OTHER THAN THE TRUE GOD?
Of course. But we all know this, so let’s be brief:
The Bible itself warns that Satan and his demons are able to influence people and control their speech. (Acts 16:17, 18) Jesus acted against a demonic spirit that had moved a man to shout and fall to the floor. (Luke 4:33-35) Paul warned that ‘Satan would transform himself into an angel of light.’ (2 Corinthians 11:14) We are warned that Satan would use “every powerful work and lying signs and portents.”—2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10. (See also 1 John 4:1; Mat 7:21-23)
Did you know that speaking in tongues was a part of certain pagan religions of Greece in Paul’s day? Their rites mixed speaking in tongues with practices such as the cutting of the flesh and frenzied nude dancing. Such historical examples clearly show that speaking in tongues can occur under influences that are most unholy.
A joint statement by the Fountain Trust and the Church of England Evangelical Council admitted: “We are also aware that a similar phenomenon can occur under occult/demonic influence.” (Gospel and Spirit, April 1977, published by the Fountain Trust and the Church of England Evangelical Council, p. 12) The book Religious Movements in Contemporary America (edited by Irving I. Zaretsky and Mark P. Leone, quoting L. P. Gerlach) reports that in Haiti ‘speaking in tongues’ is characteristic of both Pentecostal and Voodoo religions.—(Princeton, N.J.; 1974), p. 693; see also 2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.IF THE SPEAKING IN TONGUES THAT WE SEE TODAY WAS FROM GOD, WOULD
N’T IT BE VERY SIMILAR IN APPEARANCE AND PURPOSE TO THE SPEAKING IN TONGUES THAT WAS SEEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY?NICK writes on Oct 1, “It seems very common to deny the power of God among God's people. . . .God has not changed or changed His mind about His blessings given to help man.”
Then why is the speaking in tongues of today so different in purpose and appearance? God does not change. But speaking in tongues has changed. What does this tell us? (Mat 7:22,23)WHY THE GIFT OF TONGUES?
First of all, the apostle Paul explains at Hebrews 2:2-4 that the miraculous gifts, which would include the gift of tongues, were given to the first-century Christians to verify that God’s favor had shifted from the old Jewish arrangement for worship to the newly established Christian congregation. The shift of divine favor was well established by the latter part of the first century, while some of the apostles of Jesus Christ were yet alive.
That the gift of tongues also served another purpose can be seen from Jesus’ words to his disciples shortly before his ascension to heaven in 33 C.E.
He said:
“You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and . . . to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
Notice that he thus gave indication of just how this monumental witness work would be accomplished—with the assistance of the holy spirit.
When Jesus said the words quoted above in Acts 1:8, the small group of disciples did not include persons who spoke the languages of every part of the earth. But, true to Jesus’ promise, about 10 days later, on the festival day of Pentecost, the holy spirit was poured out on about 120 of his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem. The result? They “started to speak with different tongues” and so could proceed immediately to carry out the assigned work of witnessing.—Acts 2:1-4.
Modern communication technology that enables us to send messages earth wide in many languages did not exist back then. The good news had to be spread primarily by word of mouth, and in this the miraculous gift of speaking in foreign tongues would prove very helpful. Such was the case as first-century Christians preached to Jews and proselytes in Jerusalem at Pentecost 33 C.E. Parthians, Medes, Elamites, Cretans, Arabians, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, and the district of Asia, as well as sojourners from Rome, heard “the magnificent things of God” in their own language and understood what was said. Three thousand quickly became believers.—Acts 2:5-11, 41Why The Gibberish?
When those disciples gave a witness in Jerusalem at the festival of Pentecost, Jews and proselytes who had come from faraway places for the festival were heard to say:
“How is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? . . . we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:8-11)
It is obvious that the tongues mentioned here were known languages, not unintelligible speech. And notice that the gift was used in harmony with the purpose for which Jesus said the spirit would be given, namely, to witness to others. It notably served that purpose, for “on that day about three thousand souls were added.”—Acts 2:41.
In the first-century, stress was laid on the need to interpret clearly the message conveyed in tongues so that it could be understood by all and result in the edification of many. (1 Corinthians 14:26-33) Paul admonished: “Unless you through the tongue utter speech easily understood, how will it be known what is being spoken? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air.”—1 Corinthians 14:9.
While the spirit of God granted early Christians the gift of tongues, it did not cause them to speak unintelligible or untranslatable gibberish. In harmony with Paul’s counsel, the holy spirit provided speech that resulted in the good news being more quickly “preached in all creation that is under heaven.”—Colossians 1:23.
As in the first century, all creation must hear the message of the Kingdom. (Mk 13:10) This is possible because the Bible has now been translated, in whole or in part, into almost 2,000 LANGUAGES. The same spirit that infused early Christians to speak boldly and courageously is now supporting this wondrous preaching work today. By word of mouth and by using modern printing technology to make available Scriptural truth by the printed page this message is going out to over 230 countries and islands of the sea.Again, Reasons for speaking in tongues:
1. In the infancy of the Christian congregation this gift assisted the limited number of disciples to instruct foreigners about “the magnificent things of God.” (Acts 2:5-11)
2. The gift of tongues served as a visible evidence of God’s favor upon this new Christian organization. (1 Cor. 14:22)“WHETHER THERE ARE TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE”–WHEN?
In Corinthians 13, Paul goes on to show them the lowly position of tongues as compared with more important matters, especially the “surpassing way” of love. Even those blessed with the gift of tongues “become a sounding piece of brass or a clashing cymbal” if they do not exercise love, he explained. (1 Cor. 12:31; 13:1) And to emphasize the importance and permanence of love as compared to the miraculous gifts of the spirit, he wrote: “Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with.”—1 Cor. 13:8.
On the basis of Paul’s words here, there should be no question that the miraculous gifts of the spirit were to pass away. But when? It is argued by some that, since Paul said that ‘tongues are a sign to the unbelievers,’ they would not pass away until unbelievers passed away, that is, until there were no longer any unbelievers. (1 Cor. 14:22) But is that the point Paul is making in this thirteenth chapter? No, it is not. In this chapter he does not associate the cessation of tongues with unbelievers, but, rather, he is comparing the temporariness of the gifts of the spirit with the permanence of love; and he links the transitoriness of these gifts, not with unbelievers, but with the infancy of Christianity.
So after declaring, in verse 8, that the miraculous gifts of prophesying, tongues and knowledge are to be done away with, Paul shows that they were a feature of the babyhood of the Christian congregation. These special gifts of God were an identifying feature of Christianity in its infancy, but, as an adult does away with the traits of a babe, so the Bible shows that these special gifts, too, were to pass away. (1 Cor. 13:8-11)
In its infancy such miraculous gifts were needed to identify in a spectacular way that God’s favor had shifted from the Jewish nation and was now upon this new congregation of Christians. But, as Paul explained, when a man reaches adulthood he does away with “the traits of a babe.” So when the Christian congregation grew to adulthood, that is, reached maturity by becoming a recognized, established organization, these miraculous gifts passed away. Yet faith, hope and love remained as the distinguishing mark of true Christianity.—1 Cor. 13:9-13.
Regarding the transitoriness of the miraculous gifts M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia, Volume 10, page 484, says: “It thus appears that the miraculous gifts of the first days bestowed upon the Church for a definite purpose were gradually but quickly withdrawn from men when the apostles and those who had learned Christ from their lips had fallen asleep.”“THE SPIRIT WAS GIVEN”–How? And what does this tell us?
Acts 8:18 reveals that the gifts of the spirit were received “through the laying on of the hands of the APOSTLES.”
The Bible record reveals that when any miraculous gift of the spirit was transmitted, at least one of the 12 apostles or the apostle Paul was present. Read for yourse
lf the reported cases when the gift of tongues accompanied the outpouring of holy spirit: Acts 2:1-4, 14; 10:44-48; 19:6. You will notice that in every case one or more of the apostles of Jesus Christ were present. The first of three recorded instances of speaking in tongues occurred among 120 of Jesus’ disciples gathered in Jerusalem at Pentecost 33 C.E. (Acts 2:1-4) Three and a half years later, while a group of uncircumcised Italians were listening to Peter preach, they received the spirit and began “speaking with tongues and magnifying God.” (Acts 10:44-48) And 19 years after Pentecost, about 52 C.E., Paul spoke to a group in Ephesus and laid his hands upon 12 disciples. They too “began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”—Acts 19:6.
Evidently, then, in accord with Acts 8:18, with the death of the last apostle, the passing on of the gifts of the spirit would stop—including speaking in tongues. Hence, when those who had received these gifts from the apostles also passed off the earthly scene, the miraculous gift would cease. By then the Christian congregation would have had time to become well established and would have spread to many lands. The gift of tongues had served its purpose. It had been well established that the Christian congregation had God’s favor and backing. Moreover, Christians had grown in number and had been dispersed to many lands, carrying the “good news” with them. ( Compare Col 1:23) Such a view agrees with the purpose of those gifts as stated at Hebrews 2:2-4.TODAY WE HAVE THE BIBLE
Some claim that God uses this gift when he wants to give a direct message to the people. But what message from God do we need today that Jesus Christ and the apostles did not supply for us? (2 Tim 3:16,17) The apostle Paul cautioned:: “Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond [“at variance with,” The New English Bible] what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8) Now, if an apostle or an angel should not go beyond the good news recorded in the Bible, is a charismatic personality today authorized to do so?
Now that the Bible is complete and widely available, we have what we need in the Word of God. It allows us to gain an accurate knowledge of Jehovah and his Son that leads to everlasting life.—John 17:3; Revelation 22:18, 19.NICK MENTIONED THIS SCRIPTURE: 1 CORINTHIANS 14:2
Let’s look at it closely. There, Paul said: “For he that speaks in a tongue speaks, not to men, but to God.”
First of all, it should be noted that Paul is not here discussing private prayer but, rather, the use of the gift of tongues at a congregational meeting. (See 1 Corinthians 14:23.) Moreover, Paul’s words are in complete harmony with both the purpose for which the gift of tongues was given and the description of the gift given in the book of Acts. If you read the entire 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians, you will notice that
(1) the tongues referred to were known languages, not unintelligible speech, and
(2) the gift was to be used, not privately, but for the benefit of unbelievers.
Let us read verse 2 in its entirety. It states:
“FOR HE THAT SPEAKS IN A TONGUE SPEAKS, NOT TO MEN, BUT TO GOD, FOR NO ONE LISTENS, BUT HE SPEAKS SACRED SECRETS BY THE SPIRIT.”
The Greek word translated “tongue,” glōossa, is the same word as that used at Acts 2:4, 11, where it obviously has reference to known languages. The Greek word translated “listens” can denote hearing something without understanding what is stated. This can be better understood in the light of verses 13, 16 and 17 of 1 Corinthians, chapter 14, where we read:
“Therefore let the one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may translate. Otherwise, if you offer praise with a gift of the spirit, how will the man occupying the seat of the ordinary person [or, unbeliever; see verses 22-25.] say ‘Amen’ to your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying? True, you give thanks in a fine way, but the other man is not being built up.”
SIMPLY PUT, THE ONE SPEAKING IN A TONGUE SPEAKS TO GOD RATHER THAN TO MEN IF THE MEN WHO ARE LISTENING DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT HE IS SAYING. Paul had in mind not unintelligible speech but foreign languages that potentially COULD BE UNDERSTOOD BY OTHERS. But if, in fact, none of those present could understand the language and if there were no interpreters present, then the one who spoke the tongue should pray that he might translate it and thus build up others, especially the unbelievers. If there was no one to translate, then, as the scripture says, it would be better for him to keep silent.—1 Cor. 14:28.IS ‘SPEAKING IN TONGUES’ TO CONTINUE UNTIL THAT WHICH IS “PERFECT” COMES?
At 1 Corinthians 13:8 reference is made to several miraculous gifts—prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Verse 9 again refers to two of these gifts—knowledge and prophecy—saying: “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.” (KJ) Or, as RS reads: “For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect.” Then verse 10 states: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (KJ) The word “perfect” is translated from the Greek téleion, which conveys the thought of being full grown, complete, or perfect. Ro, By, and NW here render it “complete.” Notice that it is not the gift of tongues that is said to be “imperfect,” “in part,” or partial. That is said of “prophecy” and “knowledge.” In other words, even with those miraculous gifts, the early Christians had only an imperfect or partial understanding of God’s purpose. But when the prophecies would come to fulfillment, when God’s purpose would be accomplished, then “that which is perfect,” or complete, would come. So, this is obviously not discussing how long the ‘gift of tongues’ would continue.I've been gone for a while. I was just watching some show that had people who drank strychnine and handled serpents and spoke in tongues. It reminded me that such people exist.
I realize this is a long post and won't be read by some.david.
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“Let no man deceive you with empty words….”–Eph 5:6What did the gifts of the Holy Spirit accomplish back then?
Heb 2:2-4
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice; 3 how shall we escape if we have neglected a salvation of such greatness in that it began to be spoken through our Lord and was verified for us by those who heard him, 4 while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?”Salvation through Christ was verified, and signs, and powerful works with distributions of Holy Spirit was involved.
Back then, Christianity was new. It needed a boost.
“WHETHER THERE ARE TONGUES, THEY WILL CEASE”
The “tongues” of today are not like the miraculous tongues back then. Why? Because the gifts of the spirit ceased when the need for verification was no longer needed.
David……….Paul Said ……> Tell me this He who works Miracles among you does he do it by the works of the Law or by rearing of your Faith. Every generation is a new generation and every Faith is a Personal Faith , So each person must have his or her own Faith. so what was done in the past has nothing to do with your present Faith seeing (YOUR) “Faith “is a Personal thing. “Faith is the (EVIDENCE) of things not SEEN”. and as it say “Have you Faith? , Have it unto yourself”. So evidence is a PROOF and PROOF is “NOT a SUPPOSITION produce by other who say they are Witness of God, when in Fact they don't even believe in God giving that Evidence of his existences and Proofs of His existence “PERSONALLY” To a Person. If you say you believe in God but have no Personal experience with Him, i would say you are basing you So-Called Faith in what others (like a Churches or organizations) have Said about God, That will never give you pour Own Personal Faith.
David it really does amaze me that you don't believe that God still performs Miracles. What did God say through Joel. ..> And it shall come to pass in the Last Days, says God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and you sons and you daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dreams dreams (18) And on my servants and on my handmaids I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Another point is that Scripture say God does not Change, he is the same today as he was yesterday we are told. Your belief that God does not still do miracles among us is false and i am a personal witness of many many miracles David. Many people put their Faith in the organizations they are in and some how connect that with their Faith in God. When actually it is Faith in an organization misplaces as faith in God. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………gene
Quote Your belief that God does not still do miracles among us is false and i am a personal witness of many many miracles David. I haven't really said that god doesn't do miracles today. I only ask: what miracles?
Which are the miracles you personally were involved with?
I do believe the “gifts of the spirit” were done away with, or “ceased” as their purpose was fulfilled when they helped to verify that Christianity had gods backing.
Quote David it really does amaze me that you don't believe that God still performs Miracles. What did God say through Joel. ..> And it shall come to pass in the Last Days, says God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and you sons and you daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dreams dreams (18) And on my servants and on my handmaids I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: I have repeatedly said at I believe the miraculous gifts of the spirit have been done away with. I have also questioned what some believe are miracles, as they could just as easily be math or probability or coincidence.
Quote (david @ Dec. 08 2012,06:12) Quote David it really does amaze me that you don't believe that God still performs Miracles. What did God say through Joel. ..> And it shall come to pass in the Last Days, says God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh: and you sons and you daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dreams dreams (18) And on my servants and on my handmaids I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: I have repeatedly said at I believe the miraculous gifts of the spirit have been done away with. I have also questioned what some believe are miracles, as they could just as easily be math or probability or coincidence.
DavidI agree with you here ,but I do know that miracles are done by the angels of God but not by men ,
To all,
Here is a passage to be considered.
Zechariah 13:2-6
King James Version (KJV)2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Hi David:
My speaking in tongues is a prayer language. I do not speak in tongues in the church as it is not intended to edify the church but is prayer that is made in my behalf to God when I do not know what to pray. I pray with understanding , and the Spirit makes intercession for me also, and is intended to edify me.
This is what the scripture states relative to this type of tongue.
Quote 1Cr 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Cr 14:4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
I don't have the “gift of interpretation of tongues” and therefore, I do not speak in tongues in the church, but God does use individuals in the church to speak to the congregation in a tongue, when either that person or someone else in the congregation has the “gift of interpretation of tongues”.
On the day of Pentecost, God spoke the gospel through his disciples in the native tongue of Jews who were from all over the region. This is not an unknown tongue. God can do this also, if he so chooses, and He did.
And yes, the devil can mimic an unknown tongue, but God knows the difference, and since I am speaking to God in prayer in my unknown tongue and no to man, that is what matters, and no, the devil cannot heal anyone, and so, any thing that he does here in this regard will be an illusion.
Like this:
Quote Exd 8:17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt. Exd 8:18 And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
And like this:
Quote Rev 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live
But if there is a genuine physical healing, no the devil cannot duplicate it.
The greatest miracle of all is the changed heart when someone is born again and is raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God. And the scriptures states:
Quote Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
David, I don't know if I answered all of your questions with this post. I did not read your long post because I know that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased, and so, there is no need in my hearing anything that you or anyone else says to the contrary.
Love in Christ,
MartyHere is the quick answer david.
FAITH HEALING – Real, or Fake?
Both.Jesus said, “by your faith you have been made whole”. (Something like that.)
PROPHECY – Real, or Fake?
Both.TEACHING – Real or Fake?
BothFake as in false/deceptive/from the enemy.
Quote David, I don't know if I answered all of your questions with this post. I did not read your long post because I know that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased, and so, there is no need in my hearing anything that you or anyone else says to the contrary That's ok 94. I didn't read your post either, because like you, I know what I know and don't need to consider anything that might conflict with what I want to believe.
94, do you think that the gift of speaking in “different tongues” (other languages) exists today?
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 11 2012,14:01) Here is the quick answer david. FAITH HEALING – Real, or Fake?
Both.Jesus said, “by your faith you have been made whole”. (Something like that.)
PROPHECY – Real, or Fake?
Both.TEACHING – Real or Fake?
BothFake as in false/deceptive/from the enemy.
It's easy to find the fake. I could throw a rock and it would bounce off of 3 fakes before it hit the ground.But, finding the real, tricky.
T8, I have been discussing the gift of tongues with 94.
Do you think that anyone today has the fist of speaking in “different tongues” languages?
To all,
Here is a study done on the speaking in tongues. It is preliminary with only five subjects.
1. Did the speaking in tongues that the earliest disciples did include speaking in different languages, different tongues?
2. If it did, why is this gift no longer available today? Is it because the miraculous speaking in tongues has “been done away with” and “ceased” and those who think they are doing that today are just deceiving themselves?
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