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Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
I know that Satan does all the dirty work. But who created Satan.
Did not God tell Satan what he could and could not do to Job who did nothing?It's all for the learning. Lesson from Job: God giveth and the God taketh away. Just because you are righteous doesn't mean that evil will not come upon you.
God created Satan to chastise His children.
Hi k,
I agree that Satan is allowed to do lots of things and testing men is one of them. God is very freeing with all His creation. He wants all to return His love but forces nothing in creation to do so. Thus he distills everything searching for perfection. Satan was given free choice and chose darkness rather than light. We have the same choice. But we can find perfection in His eyes in the Son.
"…lead us not into temptation and delver us friom evil.."Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2005,03:10) Hi k,
I agree that Satan is allowed to do lots of things and testing men is one of them. God is very freeing with all His creation. He wants all to return His love but forces nothing in creation to do so. Thus he distills everything searching for perfection. Satan was given free choice and chose darkness rather than light. We have the same choice. But we can find perfection in His eyes in the Son.
"…lead us not into temptation and delver us friom evil.."
And God created the darkness in Satan. I know scripture says that darkness (sin) was found in him. So Satan created darkness or sin which is trangression of the law?I know we are here to learn what is good. You can't know good unless you know evil. Their can't be God without Satan. If their no Satan then their is no God.
So Adam knowing only good (their was no sin in Adam) really didn't know it was good until he discovered evil. We on the other hand know evil so we know what is good.
So could we say that God created evil for our good?
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 27 2005,14:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2005,03:10) Hi k,
I agree that Satan is allowed to do lots of things and testing men is one of them. God is very freeing with all His creation. He wants all to return His love but forces nothing in creation to do so. Thus he distills everything searching for perfection. Satan was given free choice and chose darkness rather than light. We have the same choice. But we can find perfection in His eyes in the Son.
"…lead us not into temptation and delver us friom evil.."
And God created the darkness in Satan. I know scripture says that darkness (sin) was found in him. So Satan created darkness or sin which is trangression of the law?I know we are here to learn what is good. You can't know good unless you know evil. Their can't be God without Satan. If their no Satan then their is no God.
So Adam knowing only good (their was no sin in Adam) really didn't know it was good until he discovered evil. We on the other hand know evil so we know what is good.
So could we say that God created evil for our good?
Hi k,
Was sin found in Adam? I think so. He did not follow God in faith but followed his wife instead. Satan had previously been tested and also found wanting and he encouraged sin in man.Did God create sin? No. God created what was good gave free choice. Bad choices were made by those given life and choice. Man gets a second chance but the angels do not.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 28 2005,07:49) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 27 2005,14:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 27 2005,03:10) Hi k,
I agree that Satan is allowed to do lots of things and testing men is one of them. God is very freeing with all His creation. He wants all to return His love but forces nothing in creation to do so. Thus he distills everything searching for perfection. Satan was given free choice and chose darkness rather than light. We have the same choice. But we can find perfection in His eyes in the Son.
"…lead us not into temptation and delver us friom evil.."
And God created the darkness in Satan. I know scripture says that darkness (sin) was found in him. So Satan created darkness or sin which is trangression of the law?I know we are here to learn what is good. You can't know good unless you know evil. Their can't be God without Satan. If their no Satan then their is no God.
So Adam knowing only good (their was no sin in Adam) really didn't know it was good until he discovered evil. We on the other hand know evil so we know what is good.
So could we say that God created evil for our good?
Hi k,
Was sin found in Adam? I think so. He did not follow God in faith but followed his wife instead. Satan had previously been tested and also found wanting and he encouraged sin in man.Did God create sin? No. God created what was good gave free choice. Bad choices were made by those given life and choice. Man gets a second chance but the angels do not.
Didn't God create everything? Or is there another creator besides God?1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these thingsI'll stand on the word, a sure foundation.
Hik,
Evil spirits are the fruit of the rebellion of the angels, according to Enoch, with the spirits of the nephilim remaining in the earth, though I can understand why some may not wish to use this book as a source of knowledge.
Everything God created was good including free will. But that choice was not used wisely by those angels and later men.Dear kenrch,
God does not do evil. He cannot. God is good, and if God did even one evil thing, He would not be good.
However, it is true that God does allow evil to exist. God could stop evil any second. He does not. He allows it.
God created everything. He created Satan, demons, angels, and human beings. The creatures that God created, do bad things. God created light and darkness.
Notice in that scripture it says, "an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him". It does not say the Lord troubled Saul. Rather, it says the evil spirit troubled Saul. God did not do evil.
God sent the Spirit to Saul for a purpose. God had a plan. God knew the spirit would do evil. However, God sent the spirit anyway. God wanted to be glorified through David. If you read on, you see that the evil spirit was calmed when David played the harp for Saul. This glorified God, for David, who God loved, did good in the face of evil.
God allows many bad things to happen on earth. Some of it is for teaching us like in the case of Job. God let's these bad things happen so that we may be humbled. Other times, these bad things happen so that people can see the goodness of God in His people.
<i>Romans 8:28 (KJ)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.</i>You are correct to say that God created Satan. However, God did not create Satan to be evil. God wanted Satan to be good. It was Satan's choice that He became evil.
When Satan chose to be evil, God could have killed Satan right there. However, God did not. God let Satan continue to do evil things. God did this to accomplish His plan of salvation through Jesus Christ.
God also knew Satan would become evil before He created Satan. And so, you could say that God created evil. However, God did not directly create evil. God did not make Satan do evil things. It was Satan's choice.
There is something else you need to understand about the scripture in Isaiah. You must understand the context of how it is being used. And I think, if we look at another translation, it will help.
<i>Isaiah 45:7 (NRSV)
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and <b>create woe</b>; I the Lord do all these things.</i>This scripture was not talking about all of evil. It was referring to judgement. In The New Revised Standard Version, this scripture uses the word "woe." God creates calamity and woe unto people who do evil. Bad things happen to bad people because God allows it.
If we look up the original Hebrew word that was used here (Ra`), we discover there's more. This word has man meanings. See for yourself here:
The main meaning is found in the word "bad."
What this scripture is saying is not that God created evil, but rather that God will cause bad things to happen to those who are evil.
If you read further in that chapter of Isaiah, it says,
<i>Isaiah 45:9 (KJ)
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? </i>If you read the whole chapter, you can see that God is trying to humble His people and declare His authority. He is saying,
"I created you who are evil. I am God. I will decide who is brought to salvation, and who will perish in death. Do not question me!!"
Quote (beenblake @ Oct. 30 2005,21:24) Dear kenrch, God does not do evil. He cannot. God is good, and if God did even one evil thing, He would not be good.
However, it is true that God does allow evil to exist. God could stop evil any second. He does not. He allows it.
God created everything. He created Satan, demons, angels, and human beings. The creatures that God created, do bad things. God created light and darkness.
Notice in that scripture it says, "an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him". It does not say the Lord troubled Saul. Rather, it says the evil spirit troubled Saul. God did not do evil.
God sent the Spirit to Saul for a purpose. God had a plan. God knew the spirit would do evil. However, God sent the spirit anyway. God wanted to be glorified through David. If you read on, you see that the evil spirit was calmed when David played the harp for Saul. This glorified God, for David, who God loved, did good in the face of evil.
God allows many bad things to happen on earth. Some of it is for teaching us like in the case of Job. God let's these bad things happen so that we may be humbled. Other times, these bad things happen so that people can see the goodness of God in His people.
<i>Romans 8:28 (KJ)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.</i>You are correct to say that God created Satan. However, God did not create Satan to be evil. God wanted Satan to be good. It was Satan's choice that He became evil.
When Satan chose to be evil, God could have killed Satan right there. However, God did not. God let Satan continue to do evil things. God did this to accomplish His plan of salvation through Jesus Christ.
God also knew Satan would become evil before He created Satan. And so, you could say that God created evil. However, God did not directly create evil. God did not make Satan do evil things. It was Satan's choice.
There is something else you need to understand about the scripture in Isaiah. You must understand the context of how it is being used. And I think, if we look at another translation, it will help.
<i>Isaiah 45:7 (NRSV)
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and <b>create woe</b>; I the Lord do all these things.</i>This scripture was not talking about all of evil. It was referring to judgement. In The New Revised Standard Version, this scripture uses the word "woe." God creates calamity and woe unto people who do evil. Bad things happen to bad people because God allows it.
If we look up the original Hebrew word that was used here (Ra`), we discover there's more. This word has man meanings. See for yourself here:
The main meaning is found in the word "bad."
What this scripture is saying is not that God created evil, but rather that God will cause bad things to happen to those who are evil.
If you read further in that chapter of Isaiah, it says,
<i>Isaiah 45:9 (KJ)
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? </i>If you read the whole chapter, you can see that God is trying to humble His people and declare His authority. He is saying,
"I created you who are evil. I am God. I will decide who is brought to salvation, and who will perish in death. Do not question me!!"
Dear beenblake,"I created you who are evil. I am God. I will decide who is brought to salvation, and who will perish in death. Do not question me!!"
I like that it says it like it is. "I created you who are evil" God decides who is brought to salvation.
Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.I DO NOT QUESTION GOD!!!!! God foreknew and foreordained those called to salvation. God knows the beginning from the end. He already knows the outcome. He knows who will be saved and who will not.
Psa 34:8 Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good: Blessed is the man that taketh refuge in him
God is good and because he created evil, evil is good. Sometimes God uses evil to do good.
How would we know good unless we first knew evil. God tempted Adam, it was God's plan that Adam fall, that all His children would know good.
In our case God created good first then evil. God gave Adam good but how was Adam to know what was good? Adam had to experience evil to know good.I'm not saying God is bad. I'm saying God created evil to bring about our experience of good. EVERYTHING belongs to God, everything!
Jehovah did not create Satan (meaning Opposer; Resister), any more than a parent creates a criminal.
A child is not born a criminal. He chooses to become one. He turns himself into a criminal.
Satan the Devil was an angel who because of pride wanted what Jehovah had. He wanted to be worshipped, so he set out on a plan that he believed would result in this. He thus became an Opposer (Satan) and a Slanderer (Devil) of God.Quote (MrBob @ Nov. 08 2005,05:10) Is evil something separate from good, or simply a lack of good?
Hi,
Gen 1.2
"the earth was formless and void, and DARKNESS was over the surface of the deep,.."My question is this:
Darkness is very frequently used to speak of evil. Does it do so here and if not why not?We know that Satan as the serpent was already in rebellion and on earth by the time of the creation of man. he is called the god of this world which is called :
the kingdom of DARKNESS.
What do others take from this verse?
Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,01:36) Jehovah did not create Satan (meaning Opposer; Resister), any more than a parent creates a criminal.
A child is not born a criminal. He chooses to become one. He turns himself into a criminal.
Satan the Devil was an angel who because of pride wanted what Jehovah had. He wanted to be worshipped, so he set out on a plan that he believed would result in this. He thus became an Opposer (Satan) and a Slanderer (Devil) of God.
God did not create everything? That's not what the word says. Everyting was created by Him and for Him'Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
I know that Satan does all the dirty work. But who created Satan.
Did not God tell Satan what he could and could not do to Job who did nothing?It's all for the learning. Lesson from Job: God giveth and the God taketh away. Just because you are righteous doesn't mean that evil will not come upon you.
God created Satan to chastise His children.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2005,13:28) Hi kenrch,
God created through the only begotten Son.Did sin and evil come from created free will?
Nick,I'm not going to guess. Scripture says What was and What wasn't created by God. It's His words I the Lord do all these things.
It's His plan. He knows the beginning from the end. He is God the almighty.Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you doubt the word of the LORD?
Hi kenrch,
There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7
"I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these"
Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even
"lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.."Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch,
There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7
"I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these"
Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even
"lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.."
Nick,Whatever
Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch,
There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7
"I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these"
Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even
"lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.."
Nick,Whatever
See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7. So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine. What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse. I can't buy that stuff.Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch,
There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7
"I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these"
Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even
"lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.."
Nick,Whatever
See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7. So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine. What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse. I can't buy that stuff.
No kenrch,
You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch,
There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7
"I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these"
Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even
"lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.."
Nick,Whatever
See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7. So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine. What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse. I can't buy that stuff.
No kenrch,
You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome.
Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is? And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is the best their is! If not God then who? Someone has to be the best. Who would that be?Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch,
There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7
"I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these"
Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even
"lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.."
Nick,Whatever
See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7. So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine. What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse. I can't buy that stuff.
No kenrch,
You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome.
Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is? And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is the best their is! If not God then who? Someone has to be the best. Who would that be?
Hi kenrch,
Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God?
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