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But we know from John 14:23 that there is at least two distinct persons indwelling us. And we know from John 14:16-17 that Yeshua would send a Spirit other than Himself and the Father, going by the usage of the word “another” (Gr. allos). We also know that this could not a reference to the Father's personal Spirit as John's mention of Yeshua sending “Him” (in John 16:7) would violate the clearly expounded line of authority between them.
Your thoughts?
Hi Is 1.18,
The Holy Spirit of God is one.The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God uniting us in Christ, in God.
We are not baptised in two or three spirits but one.
1Cor 12
” 3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”
Otherwise you must dissect out every reference to THE Spirit and tell us WHICH you believe and can prove it to be anyway.
in continuation….
Quote One thing for sure though that the Holy Spirit has no spirit but is the Spirit of God so there is no trinity in us. If by “Spirit of God” you mean the personal spirit of the Father, then I think there are some biblical passages that challenge that hypothesis:
John 16:7
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear delineation in authority between the Father and Son. It’s the father that does the sending…..This theme is ramped up even higher in vss 13 and 14:
John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.We see a clear picture of the Helper's subservience to the Son in this passage, so the Father's personal Spirit does not fit here at all. Just to underscore this Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him. Again There are also some telling passages in Romans 8….
Romans 8:14-15
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“Paul articulates that the Spirit induces us to cry out “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Makes no sense to me.
Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.The Spirit “intercedes” (to intercede in behalf of: – make intercession for. [Strongs]) on our behalf TO God. So to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also germane that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, would this affirmation not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? I think so.
Again, what are your thoughts?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2007,02:51) Hi Is 1.18,
The Holy Spirit of God is one.The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God uniting us in Christ, in God.
We are not baptised in two or three spirits but one.
I agree there is One Spirit. But evidently more than one person comprises this One Spirit. When you really look at the evidence, it's hard to escape that conclusion.Do you have a comment on John 14:23?
John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.Again we have the usage of the masculine third person pronoun “He” by Yeshua, so it's not a 'thing' in view here. Moreover, there is a theme of subservience emerging in this passage, and a clear distinction in operational attributes of ministry, between Yeshua and the “helper”. Note how the Spirit will “disclose” what he “hears” in verse 13. In the next verse we see that it is Yeshua that He will hear from. He will “take of” Yeshua and “disclose it to” us. So clearly this is not Yeshua speaking to His own Spirit here…..nor could it be referring to the Father's personal spirit – or we would have to concede that the Son who calls the shots to the Father's Spirit!!….
Your thoughts?
Hi Is 1.18,
Indeed the Spirit of GOD does remind us of the word of God. I love it.
And in that same Spirit of God can reach into the heart and mind of God-
because IT IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD, not another person.The Spirit is OF God and can rightly be personalised as God as in Acts 5..
1Cor 2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. “
Acts 5
” 3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Hi Is 1.18,
There are no scriptures that say there are three persons in God so we should put such ideas aside if we are searching for truth. We know that God is one and the Spirit is one. You know that unity in spirit between the Father and the Son and that unity is in THE Spirit of God and that unity is also available to us. So When Jesus says “My Father and I” in the context of discussion of the work of the Spirit he surely means the uniting Spirit of God.Hi NH,
I made many points that you didn't really address specifically for whatever reason. Can I ask you to address just one of these:-Quote Do you have a comment on John 14:23? Hi Is 1.18,
Just did.
Jn 14
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.Compare 2 jn
“9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.So you do affirm that the Holy Spirit is a collective term for the spirits of the Father, and of the Son?
Quote So you do affirm that the Holy Spirit is a collective term for the spirits of the Father, and of the Son? God's spirit was put upon Jesus. (Mat 12:18)
This is why when he used God's holy spirit, he sometimes said that it was “by means of God's spirit” that he did such and such. (Mat 12:28)
MARK 1:10
“And immediately on coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being parted, and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him;”Is 1:18, if I give you some wisdom, words of advice, and you use it, you could say that you are using my wisdom. But of course, I gave it to you. It could be spoken of as being your wisdom or mine, but really, you only have it because I gave it to you and it is from me.
So, where were we having that discussion about how the pharisees seemed to have no idea that Jesus or his disciples believed he was God Almighty?
Yes David, but wisdom does not have have a mind, or will. I cannot think, teach, hear, speak, dispatch, impell, appoint, reveal, forbid, love. I cannot be vexed, insulted, lied to or grieved.
In fact here is a list of personal attributes applied to the Spirit.
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.(source: Scripture Seeker)
How does “wisdom” measure up relative to this? Is wisdom called “God” like the Holy Spirit is in Ephesians 4:6?
It's a weak argument you offer.
Quote Yes David, but wisdom does not have have a mind, or will. In never said it did. In which of Jesus many illustrations do all the components have identical traits?
I was using an illustration, based on your statement.
Wisdom, can be personified though, and it is not a person.
But, what does any of this have to do with what I said? It seems you are re-directing the conversation.
I was simply pointing out this:
Quote God's spirit was put upon Jesus. (Mat 12:18) This is why when he used God's holy spirit, he sometimes said that it was “by means of God's spirit” that he did such and such. (Mat 12:28)
MARK 1:10
“And immediately on coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being parted, and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him;”in response to your statement.
Quote Is 1:18, if I give you some wisdom, words of advice, and you use it, you could say that you are using my wisdom. But of course, I gave it to you. It could be spoken of as being your wisdom or mine, but really, you only have it because I gave it to you and it is from me.
The inference you were making here, with regard to the personification of wisdom, was pretty blatant David. You know it and I know it.Quote The inference you were making here, with regard to the personification of wisdom, was pretty blatant David. You know it and I know it.
Wrong. It's definitely not “blatent” to me. And I wrote it. Where oh where in that comparison am I speaking of personification. The entire point of my post, if you re-read it, is that, well, you said that the spirit is a collective term for the spirit of Jehovah and for Jesus.What I said in my whole post is that
God's spirit was put upon Jesus. (Mat 12:18)
This is why when he used God's holy spirit, he sometimes said that it was “by means of God's spirit” that he did such and such. (Mat 12:28)
MARK 1:10
“And immediately on coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being parted, and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him;”No mention of personification so far. I'm clearly speaking about how God's spirit was given to Jesus. Now, note the very similar illustration:
I tried to make it easier for you to understand.
Is 1:18, if I give you some wisdom, words of advice, and you use it, you could say that you are using my wisdom. But of course, I gave it to you. It could be spoken of as being your wisdom or mine, but really, you only have it because I gave it to you and it is from me.
Again, not the slightest hint to any degree of me trying to connect the personfication of wisdom with the personfication of the holy spirit. I'm trying to explain how something that is someone's and they give it to someone else, it can sort of be spoken of as being both person's, yet, Jehovah's holy spirit comes from Jehovah, that is the obvious point most everyone would draw from what i said.Quote The inference you were making here, with regard to the personification of wisdom, was pretty blatant David. You know it and I know it. You actually got me that time. I actually was distracted by your trying to sidestep what I said again. You're good at this.
Any comment on what I ACTUALLY said, as opposed to what you are trying to say I said and divert the conversation with these things?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 11 2007,03:00) in continuation…. Quote One thing for sure though that the Holy Spirit has no spirit but is the Spirit of God so there is no trinity in us. If by “Spirit of God” you mean the personal spirit of the Father, then I think there are some biblical passages that challenge that hypothesis:
John 16:7
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.John here speaking of the “helper” declared that He will send “Him”. If this were the Father’s personal Spirit then this would run counter to the clear delineation in authority between the Father and Son. It’s the father that does the sending…..This theme is ramped up even higher in vss 13 and 14:
John 16:13-14
13″But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.We see a clear picture of the Helper's subservience to the Son in this passage, so the Father's personal Spirit does not fit here at all. Just to underscore this Yeshua proclaimed that the Helper will “glorify” Him. Again There are also some telling passages in Romans 8….
Romans 8:14-15
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!“Paul articulates that the Spirit induces us to cry out “Abba! Father!”. Would the Father’s Spirit cry out to Himself this way? Makes no sense to me.
Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.The Spirit “intercedes” (to intercede in behalf of: – make intercession for. [Strongs]) on our behalf TO God. So to affirm that The Holy Spirit is the Father’s personal spirit you must hold that The Father makes intercession TO HIMSELF…..which is the very essence of confusion, I think. It’s also germane that the Spirit does this “according to the will of God”, would this affirmation not be the very epitome of redundancy if the Spirit was the Father’s Spirit? I think so.
Again, what are your thoughts?
Is 1:18Excellent!
It just occurred to me that you have to have the Spirit of God in you to see it.
Only the Spirit of God can reveal the Oneness shared in the Godhead!
Hi W,
There is no trinity revealed by the Spirit of God through all the teachers appointed by God?
So which teachers are you following that make themselves greater than God?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2007,03:23) Is 1:18 Excellent!
It just occurred to me that you have to have the Spirit of God in you to see it.
Only the Spirit of God can reveal the Oneness shared in the Godhead!
Well if that was true then the bible wasn't inspired by the Spirit of God.https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.It is not the Spirit of God that reveals the Trinity to a believer, rather it comes from Babylon.
Men with itching ears have a whole supermarket of doctrines and teachings they can choose from, but a noble person chooses to let the truth change him. If you believe that scripture is true, then you have to accept that believers should believe that there is one God the Father and he is the true God.
Well t8, let's see if your view holds up to scrutiny. We can look at some of the verses dealing with the Spirit and see if your “truth” fits the scriptures. You hold that the Holy Spirit is the Father's personal spirit, right?
Please, if you could just give me a 'yes' or 'no', it would be appreciated.
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