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Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 18 2010,07:37) Hi there Ted,
This is as fine a place as any to discuss when the Son was begotten…there are plenty of threads to choose from, LOL. I've just about been to all of them and it is of great interest to me and also key in many ways.As far as Melchizedek, that is somewhat of a mystery, I don't see Him as a theophany of the Son. I don't believe that Mel literally had no parents just as the Son did have a parent, Mel did too, he must have but his lineage was just not recorded. He might be considered a type of Christ as David was a type of Christ.
Have you considered Gen 18 when the three 'men' came to Abraham and one was called Jehovah? I think that has merit to be the Son as a theophany. Also, the scriptures in Hebrews 1 says that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands and the verb voice in Greek is written in the active voice to indicate that the Son actively laid the foundation. He of course, had to be there to do that.
Hi Kathi…..Let me address the first issue in Col:1:15 as you read through the letter the term “first born of every creature” is a referel to Christ Jesus,however,when you read on he also is refered to as “the first born of the dead”in 1:18….I would think that 1:18 supports the personage of Jesus from his physical birth to his physical death…1:15 in the Geneva Bible concordance section states this “Begotten before anything was made:and therefore the everlasting son of the everlasting father”….I would think that the sum total reverts right back to John 1:1….With the exception that Paul speaks of the evolution of the Word to the personage of Jesus and in every way a member of the God head in both forms…As rule I try not to parot or recite chapter and verse but have demonstrated that sometimes it is neccessary…..An understanding that I had is now much clearer…Kathi…. Gen:18…. The three men that appeared were angels….It was abraham who addressed them as a group or was speaking to one as lord and in those days the term Lord refered to Jehovah and that name refered only to God…I can see how this could be construed as a physical gathering involving a face to face conversation with God/Christ…..Let us not loose sight of the purpose for the visit…It involved Sarah having a child…..Angels historically have always been charged with the task of delivering messages from God directly….My question is ….Why was it necessary for three visitors…
Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 18 2010,07:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 18 2010,07:37) Hi there Ted,
This is as fine a place as any to discuss when the Son was begotten…there are plenty of threads to choose from, LOL. I've just about been to all of them and it is of great interest to me and also key in many ways.As far as Melchizedek, that is somewhat of a mystery, I don't see Him as a theophany of the Son. I don't believe that Mel literally had no parents just as the Son did have a parent, Mel did too, he must have but his lineage was just not recorded. He might be considered a type of Christ as David was a type of Christ.
Have you considered Gen 18 when the three 'men' came to Abraham and one was called Jehovah? I think that has merit to be the Son as a theophany. Also, the scriptures in Hebrews 1 says that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands and the verb voice in Greek is written in the active voice to indicate that the Son actively laid the foundation. He of course, had to be there to do that.
Hi Kathi…..Let me address the first issue in Col:1:15 as you read through the letter the term “first born of every creature” is a referel to Christ Jesus,however,when you read on he also is refered to as “the first born of the dead”in 1:18….I would think that 1:18 supports the personage of Jesus from his physical birth to his physical death…1:15 in the Geneva Bible concordance section states this “Begotten before anything was made:and therefore the everlasting son of the everlasting father”….I would think that the sum total reverts right back to John 1:1….With the exception that Paul speaks of the evolution of the Word to the personage of Jesus and in every way a member of the God head in both forms…As rule I try not to parot or recite chapter and verse but have demonstrated that sometimes it is neccessary…..An understanding that I had is now much clearer…
Hi Ted,
So do you believe the Son of God was the Son before the ages and then in time became the Son of Man while still, of course remaining the Son of God as well?Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 18 2010,08:15) Kathi…. Gen:18…. The three men that appeared were angels….It was abraham who addressed them as a group or was speaking to one as lord and in those days the term Lord refered to Jehovah and that name refered only to God…I can see how this could be construed as a physical gathering involving a face to face conversation with God/Christ…..Let us not loose sight of the purpose for the visit…It involved Sarah having a child…..Angels historically have always been charged with the task of delivering messages from God directly….My question is ….Why was it necessary for three visitors…
So Ted,
You think that the Son is an angel or was He simply with two angels and He was God's Son in the appearance of a man. I would think that the Son being the Word of God would also be giving the messages from the Father and in only that sense could He be viewed as being called the same word that the angels are called, meaning messengers. I do not believe that the Son of God falls into the class of beings called the angels.
What do you think?Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,06:02) Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 18 2010,08:15) Kathi…. Gen:18…. The three men that appeared were angels….It was abraham who addressed them as a group or was speaking to one as lord and in those days the term Lord refered to Jehovah and that name refered only to God…I can see how this could be construed as a physical gathering involving a face to face conversation with God/Christ…..Let us not loose sight of the purpose for the visit…It involved Sarah having a child…..Angels historically have always been charged with the task of delivering messages from God directly….My question is ….Why was it necessary for three visitors…
So Ted,
You think that the Son is an angel or was He simply with two angels and He was God's Son in the appearance of a man. I would think that the Son being the Word of God would also be giving the messages from the Father and in only that sense could He be viewed as being called the same word that the angels are called, meaning messengers. I do not believe that the Son of God falls into the class of beings called the angels.
What do you think?
Kathi in no way are we to deminish the deity of Jesus…Iam just not sure that Abrahams address as lord was directed at one of the angels or all three…They did not declare themselves in name ….according to the translation it appears that they just spoke to abraham….In the final analysis we agree in principle that the son is as timeless as the father although the son has manefested as human perhaps more than once….Ok Ted but you continue to call Jesus an angel and I guess that is confusing me. In the story of Abraham, two of the 'men,' who we find out in the next chapter are definitely angels, were going on ahead and Abraham was left talking with the third 'man' and this is the account:
22Then (W)the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before (X)the LORD.
23Abraham came near and said, “(Y)Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24″Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?
25″Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not (Z)the Judge of all the earth deal justly?“
26So the LORD said, “(AA)If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”
27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but (AB)dust and ashes.
28″Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”
29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.”
30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.”
32Then he said, “(AC)Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.”
33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham (AD)the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
Isn't it obvious that Abraham is calling one of the LORD, Jehovah? He also said that He was the judge of the whole earth.
Anyway, IMO, this one was not an angel that is also judge of the whole earth.
LU,
You say that Jesus delivering the message of God, would be called a Messenger, but not a Messenger like the Angels are called Messengers.
Why?
A Messenger is a Messenger.
A Messenger Angel is an Angel delivering a message from GodJesus was a Messenger Angel and delivered the word of God.
Why do you create a different category of 'Messenger'.
“He makes his Angels into Messengers”
Scriptures doesn't mention classes of messengers, just messengers, doe it?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,06:39) Ok Ted but you continue to call Jesus an angel and I guess that is confusing me. In the story of Abraham, two of the 'men,' who we find out in the next chapter are definitely angels, were going on ahead and Abraham was left talking with the third 'man' and this is the account: 22Then (W)the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before (X)the LORD.
23Abraham came near and said, “(Y)Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24″Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?
25″Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not (Z)the Judge of all the earth deal justly?“
26So the LORD said, “(AA)If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”
27And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but (AB)dust and ashes.
28″Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.”
29He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.”
30Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.”
32Then he said, “(AC)Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.”
33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham (AD)the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
Isn't it obvious that Abraham is calling one of the LORD, Jehovah? He also said that He was the judge of the whole earth.
Anyway, IMO, this one was not an angel that is also judge of the whole earth.
Kathi….Iam not sure that it was Jesus among the three men that Abraham refered to….not sure….need to study and to prove ….we must not forget that translation is not infailable and in this case my understanding is limited….I have no doubt that Jesus is the son of God and is not an angel…Kathi…..You are opening doors….please,have patients with me and afford me the time needed to read through, and at that point Iam reasonably sure we will be in agreement…Thanks
Sure Ted…take all the time you need and I am relieved that you clearly said that Jesus was not an angel.
Enjoy your reading!
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 18 2010,17:07) LU, You say that Jesus delivering the message of God, would be called a Messenger, but not a Messenger like the Angels are called Messengers.
Why?
A Messenger is a Messenger.
A Messenger Angel is an Angel delivering a message from GodJesus was a Messenger Angel and delivered the word of God.
Why do you create a different category of 'Messenger'.
“He makes his Angels into Messengers”
Scriptures doesn't mention classes of messengers, just messengers, doe it?
JA,
Do you think that someone could be a messenger of God's word and not be an angel?Angels are a group of a certain type of heavenly beings but not every heavenly being is in that group. The Son is not in that group…the kind of being He is isn't the angel kind. He is the deity kind.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 19 2010,10:13) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 18 2010,17:07) LU, You say that Jesus delivering the message of God, would be called a Messenger, but not a Messenger like the Angels are called Messengers.
Why?
A Messenger is a Messenger.
A Messenger Angel is an Angel delivering a message from GodJesus was a Messenger Angel and delivered the word of God.
Why do you create a different category of 'Messenger'.
“He makes his Angels into Messengers”
Scriptures doesn't mention classes of messengers, just messengers, doe it?
JA,
Do you think that someone could be a messenger of God's word and not be an angel?Angels are a group of a certain type of heavenly beings but not every heavenly being is in that group. The Son is not in that group…the kind of being He is isn't the angel kind. He is the deity kind.
JA: Here is a possible idea. Maybe Angels or at least some of the messenger Angels are thoughts or words of our minds.
Words deliver messages from one to another. We createwords in our minds from the thoughts we draw from the desires we emitt.
A thought of truth of God formed into words for expression would be an Angel delievering a message or making a demand from universal source.I believe there may be ranks of Angels we create, both of God/truth or deception/illusion of truth.
Some rank as Seraphs, Teraphs, principalities, powers, rulers etc.! (spelling probably wrong) Paul said are they not all ministeringspirits, sent/spoken forth for those who are heirs of salvation? Maybe like servants sent out to bring forth the desire of the master. They can be messengers of light or dark which ever one is created and sent forth.
James said our entire lives are steered by the words of our mouths. Like a small rudder on a great ship words determine the direction of ones life. If the tongue is set on fire or destruction, that will also be the circumstances brought forth in our lives by our own created
Angel/messenger/words. Just for thought! TK
LU,
Was 'Jesus' called 'the Angel of God' in the Old Testament?
Did Jesus deliver the Word of God?
Did God call Jesus, 'His Servant'?
LU,
Can you prove anything of what you posted to me.
You just made a whole lot of statements with absolutely no proof.
Where, for instance, does it say that Jesus was deity? Do you even begin to understand what diety means?
If Jesus was 'Deity' then he should be worshipped. But God said, Before ME, there was no Diety formed, and After Me also, there shall be none'.
Neither before Him, during, nor after, shall a deity be formed.So, how was Jesus a deity?
And when he Emptied himself, hewas fully 'MAN, not a God'.Then when he was raised up again, was he again a God??
Remember this…Jesus was Raised to a HIGHER Position to that which he left…..
Please show me, from your reckoning, how there is a higher position above 'Deity'…from your own reckoning….
And from mine, He was still not Deity after he was risen…'Not after me'
How can there be TWO Complete Rulers in Heaven? And if Jesus was 'STILL' God when he was MAN on earth, LU, you open up a whole new can of worms.
JA,
you ask so many questions, let's start here:Quote Where, for instance, does it say that Jesus was deity?
The literal Son of God with God's own nature would be deity.
He is called:
Mighty God, everlasting Father.
The word was God. John 1:1
The only begotten God. John 1:18
My Lord and my God…Thomas called Him that.
The EXACT representation of God's nature.
The form of God.Quote If Jesus was 'Deity' then he should be worshipped. But God said, Before ME, there was no Diety formed, and After Me also, there shall be none'.
Neither before Him, during, nor after, shall a deity be formed.He is worshiped as the Son of God or as one from God several times and I do worship Him as the Son of God:
Quote And here is a list of passages that show that Jesus is receiving the worship “proskuneo” of others: Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJVMatt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJVMatt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJVMatt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJVMatt 9:18-35
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
KJVMatt 14:26-36
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
KJVMatt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJVMatt 20:20-28
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exerc
ise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
KJVMatt 28:8-10
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
KJVMatt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJVMark 5:1-20
5 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJVLuke 24:44 – 53
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.John 9:30-39
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
KJVHeb 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
KJVIs that not enough proof for you?
When God said there was no deity formed, that is true. The deity of God, the Father is the same as the deity of the Son, not a different form of deity. Like begat like, not like begat not like. The deity of the Son is of the eternal kind, and at one point the Father begat Him in a sense where the Son's deity was outstretched like the sun turning on the ray was like the Father begetting the Son. The Son was always within the Father like the potential ray was always within the sun. By the Father's word, “Let there be Light,” the perfect nativity of the Son was produced as far as Tertullian and I see it.
Quote So, how was Jesus a deity?
As an only begotten Son of God.Quote And when he Emptied himself, hewas fully 'MAN, not a God'.
We aren't given specifics. He became flesh and was made in the appearance as a man, He felt suffering and pain and hunger and tiredness etc. but never did He nor could He stop being deity, He handicapped Himself by emptying Himself of whatever was necessary to become an infant with the memory of an infant. During His life in the flesh, He grew in wisdom as God identified Him and taught Him and gave Him all things. No one can deny their past history, He was who God created the world through and much later He became like the created man that He took part in creating. He never stopped being the deity that was involved in creation, He just handicapped Himself to become a man too.Quote Then
when he was raised up again, was he again a God??He never stopped being deity, that would be impossible.
Quote Remember this…Jesus was Raised to a HIGHER Position to that which he left…..
You ought to make a distinction between the Pre-Jesus who was not man and the Jesus who was man and deity. The Pre-Jesus, some call Him 'the Word,' was the Outstretched Arm of God as God's only Son, the Son of God. The one that is exalted after dying is the Son of God/Son of Man, the Messiah. He receives the office of High Priest and Mediator because of His victory over sin. Before creation the Son had no need to be in the position of a High Priest and Mediator because there were no people. Before coming in the flesh, the Son did not hold those positions, that doesn't make Him less deity. After the resurrection He received those positions. Those positions weren't available before coming as a man.Quote How can there be TWO Complete Rulers in Heaven? And if Jesus was 'STILL' God when he was MAN on earth, LU, you open up a whole new can of worms. God's rule is through the Son. There is one Ruler, the Father, and the one He does that ruling through who in a sense can be considered a ruler too, the Son expressing the one rule of the Father.
Maybe it would help to realize there are three distinctions of God, the Father who is the one true God, and His Son who is the one true 'God of/from God,' and the Spirit of God. All three distinctions cooperate to accomplish the fullness of deity. Some call this a Godhead. The Father is distinct, the Son is distinct, and the Spirit is distinct although, imo is not a person like the other two but maybe is the inner-person of the Father. Our spirit is our 'inner-person.'
If you need specific scriptural references let me know but I think you probably can figure them out.
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 21 2010,08:48) LU, Was 'Jesus' called 'the Angel of God' in the Old Testament?
Did Jesus deliver the Word of God?
Did God call Jesus, 'His Servant'?
JA,
Yes I believe that He was called the Angel of God in the OT but I don't believe that He was ever of the angelic nature and therefore not one of the angel kind. Angels were called 'men' in the OT but they didn't have human nature, nor were they part of mankind. My point is, just because the angels were called men, that didn't make them men. They appeared as men though. The pre-Jesus may have appeared as an angel but not truly have been an angel.Jesus delivered the word of God and is called the Word of God…two different senses.
Jesus was a servant as a deity Son to a deity Father, always. The Son is perfect.
Think about what perfect means. I think we cannot truly grasp the fullness of it but a perfect Son would always serve His perfect Father.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 22 2010,08:02) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 21 2010,08:48) LU, Was 'Jesus' called 'the Angel of God' in the Old Testament?
Did Jesus deliver the Word of God?
Did God call Jesus, 'His Servant'?
JA,
Yes I believe that He was called the Angel of God in the OT but I don't believe that He was ever of the angelic nature and therefore not one of the angel kind. Angels were called 'men' in the OT but they didn't have human nature, nor were they part of mankind. My point is, just because the angels were called men, that didn't make them men. They appeared as men though. The pre-Jesus may have appeared as an angel but not truly have been an angel.Jesus delivered the word of God and is called the Word of God…two different senses.
Jesus was a servant as a deity Son to a deity Father, always. The Son is perfect.
Think about what perfect means. I think we cannot truly grasp the fullness of it but a perfect Son would always serve His perfect Father.
Greetings Kathi……It is always enlightening to read through the passages chapter and verse….I have to agree with you on several facts that I have overlooked through time…I could't ignore the fact that Lot was refering to the two men that visited as, Lords…And the conversation Abraham had was with God in the personage of a man…The man was indeed the Word in the flesh…as I read further God announced that sarah was to have a child and his name would be Isaac….at the same time Abraham pleaded for Ishmaels' favor and God promised that the seed of both would bring forth great nations,however,his covenant will be with Isaac and from his seed would come the Christ….This is where I go off the track….from these passages I get the sense that the Jesus we know through the Virgin birth was present at these events but was in the capacity of the word and became the Christ….this not to say or deminish his existence from the beginning….Iam convinced that the Bible reveals itself as God sees fit and by design it is meant to confuse and confound wise and learned…Please note I do not consider myself either Wise nor Learned…..Just somewhat unsettled and confused….The most intricate part of believing is knowing why you believe…
LU,
Doesn't Scriptures say that Jesus was 'perfected' through the Holy Spirit, 'the Spirit of Holiness'
Then how was Jesus 'Perfect' before he was 'perfected'….see the word…'to become…perfect'. If he 'became perfect', how then was he 'perfect' before.
And, If Jesus was always Deity when he was Man, how did he die?
And if Jesus were Deity while he was Man, then he did not 'EMPTY' himself …completely…and you make him a liar, and you make Scriptures a liar, and, 'Then Man is still in Sin', and we still await the Scriotures to be fulfilled, to crucify Christ again.
I'm getting a feeling of what you are thinking, of how you are thinking…and you are both right ,….and wrong….
By your thinking…yes, you are right…Jesus was 'Holy', eternally Holy, even as man, before as Spirit, and after as SpiritMan. See, you mistake 'Deity' for 'Holy'…just as you mistake, 'Praise, Glory and Honor' for 'Worship'.
Yes, by all means 'Praise, Glorify and Honor Jesus…as you do God.'
But…'Worship God only'….And, No, you are wrong….
There is only one God…you do not know what nor WHO God is…you do not know WHAT 'God' means, hence you dwell in sin of a sort, believing an aberation.
'God' in the context of rulership, means, Supreme Ruler.There can only ever be one Supreme Ruler….it is impossible for there to be two or more….
Jehovah, is that Supreme Ruler.Before Jehovah there was no God…Supreme Ruler…and since Jehovah never dies, He will Always be God.
Jesus, is the Son of God…you do noteven begin to understand what this means, hence you sin in your aberation…
LU, how many Son of God will there be when the new heaven and earth are established…..
144,000….
LU, are you saying that there will be 144,000 Gods, Deities…??Jesus is made 'Son of God' when he is raised from the dead and glorified by God as Romans 1:~ says.
Also, as Hebrews and Ephesians declares, 'Today, I have become your father'
….see the word 'Become'?
That means the Subject (Jesus) was already in existence…
There are three instances where Jesus is a 'Son':
In Heaven with the other 'Sons of God'
As Son of Man…and Son of God in the flesh,. Remember that even Jesus himself said, 'What of it…!, did God himself not call others 'gods' who also walked in HIS way having heard HIS word…then what of it if i say i am Son of God?[Do i not also walk in HIS way?]'
And lastly, the TRUE Son of God. 'Begotten', 'raised up', 'Spiritually Adopted', 'firstborn', the 'first' to become the True Son, after which others will be led to Sonship by his example, Adopted….hence the 'become your father'.
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