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Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 17 2013,00:24) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2013,12:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2013,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2013,19:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2013,00:53) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2013,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 05 2013,02:16) Jesus is also Lord of all and the First and the Last and Jehovah of hosts. I don't see anywhere that He was 'appointed' as Lord of all or the First and the Last or Jehovah of hosts. All things were made through Him and for Him.
LU,Jesus is the First in the Last Messiah as there is no other. He is also the Alpha and Omega Heir as their is no other.
Jesus was appointed King over heaven and earth which means he was not already King over heaven and earth.
There nowhere that Scripture states Jesus is or was Jehovah of hosts.
All thing were made through him by his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead.
Kerwin,
You are adding your own bias to these. Can you admit that?you said:
Quote Jesus is the First in the Last Messiah as there is no other. He is also the Alpha and Omega Heir as their is no other. You added the word 'Messiah' and the word 'Heir' which is NOT in the scripture. You are forcing your opinion and adding to scripture. If left alone as inspired you will see that Jesus is identifying Himself with Jehovah.
Quote Jesus was appointed King over heaven and earth which means he was not already King over heaven and earth. Jesus was born 'King of the Jews” and after His resurrection He became King of kings from my understanding and possibly alludes to His human nature.
Quote There nowhere that Scripture states Jesus is or was Jehovah of hosts. Peter identifies Jesus as Jehovah of hosts from Isa 8, in 1 Peter 2.
Quote All thing were made through him by his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. What scripture do you have for that? Here you are adding to scripture AGAIN. You must surrender your own understanding in order to be able to see more clearly, Kerwin. You are stumbling over the stone who is Jehovah of hosts/Jesus.
LU,I am putting it like it is.
There is no evidence First and Last or Alpha and Omega are attempts by Jesus to identify himself with Jehovah. What they are is titles that state Jesus is the First and Last of a series just like Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega is the last letter.
First and the Last when in reference to Jehovah mean he is the only God. Jesus is the only Messiah, Heir, and perhaps other titles any of which can apply as neither he or God chose to be explicit.
I can not figure out what you are talking about that involves 1 Peter 2 and Isaiah 8. Please go into more detail.
Any Scripture that speaks of the new creation is teaching you that all things are made through him by his death and resurrection. Romans 8:22 is one.
Hi Kerwin,you said:
Quote
There is no evidence First and Last or Alpha and Omega are attempts by Jesus to identify himself with Jehovah. What they are is titles that state Jesus is the First and Last of a series just like Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega is the last letter.First and the Last when in reference to Jehovah mean he is the only God. Jesus is the only Messiah, Heir, and perhaps other titles any of which can apply as neither he or God chose to be explicit.
There is evidence that Jehovah alone in the OT claimed to be the 'First and the Last.' This was not a common title for random things of which there were just one of. The Jews must have known this title and that it was used for Jehovah alone. If a first century Jew heard someone take this title as their own, I would think they would consider it blasphemous. Wouldn't you agree? Jesus does not give us ANY evidence that He meant that He was the First and the Last “Messiah” in the context of Rev. 1.
You have to ask yourself what the first century Jew would think of when things were mentioned like this.
Quote I can not figure out what you are talking about that involves 1 Peter 2 and Isaiah 8. Please go into more detail. Any Scripture that speaks of the new creation is teaching you that all things are made through him by his death and resurrection. Romans 8:22 is one.
Regarding Jesus being identified as Jehovah of hosts…answer these two questions:
Who is the stone that is spoken about in 1 Peter 2:6, 7 and 8?What are the Bible passages that contain the specific scriptures which are being referenced from the OT here, do you know?
LU,Jehovah does not actually use first and the last a title in the Old Testament, he uses it to say he is the only God. Most of the time it is used to mean entirety. I am not sure it is a title in any of the cases in Revelations but I am curious why he did not say what he is first and last of. It is certainly not time as far as God is concerned. It may have been left vague in order to cover all things God is first and last of. The same thing may have been done in Jesus' case but I lack knowledge to say so. Of course Jesus is the pioneer and finisher of the true gospel.
The rock is the Law of Mosses but it sym
bolized Christ. The Law is rock both physically and spiritually as it is God's word written on rock. Through Christ we have access to the new covenant that is written in heats but is still rock.The Law is not God nor is that which it symbolizes.
Hi Kerwin,
I asked you what OT passages that 1 Peter 2 was referring to. Can you tell me? When you find them, can you show me in those contexts that the 'stone/rock' is the law?Regarding the 'first and the last' comment that Jesus made about Himself…can you admit that Jesus used a description that was known to the Jews to describe YHVH and applied it to Himself?
LU,It is from Isaiah 28:16. It is a stone as is what the first 10 commandments of are written on. It is laid in Zion. He is speaking to those who led Jerusalem at that time, v14.
Peter uses the passage as symbolism of Christ as that covenant is a shadow of the new covenant.
No, I do not acknowledge that the first and last only applied to Yawheh. It is like any other title and truthfully applies to those it is true of.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,19:48)
God chose to explain His relationship to Jesus as “Father/Son”. He explained it this way to HUMAN BEINGS, who would only understand a “father/son” relationship in one way, ie: the father ALWAYS exists before the son does.And I suppose you agree that all God's other SPIRIT sons were brought forth AFTER God had already existed for a while, right?
So it's not just because of “human sons” that I say this, Kathi.
So IMO, the “irresponsible argument” is YOUR out of the blue, unscriptural, and unsubstantiated claim that Jesus is the ONLY son in existence who has existed for as long as his father has.
Really tired of this argument, Mike. Do humans understand every human father to also have a father? Yes or No?
No. Because smart humans can understand that Adam, as the first human, did NOT have a human father……… but all who came after him did.So who exactly DOESN'T have a father, Kathi? The one WHO CAME FIRST, right?
So, which one DOESN'T have a father, Kathi? Jehovah, or Jesus? Because the one WITHOUT a father is the one WHO CAME FIRST.
I didn't bother reading the rest of the post, since your premise was flawed from the first statement.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:23) Was Jesus always alive in the flesh, Mike?
If so, then He did not become flesh.
If not, then he had to be given life in the flesh.
Are you saying that between spirit and flesh, Jesus completely died, ceased to exist, and had to be GIVEN life again?I don't believe that. I believe the spirit servant of God, Jesus, was transformed from spirit to flesh. I don't believe he ceased to exist before he was made in the likeness of a human being.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:25) My claim is that this further identifies the two powers of heaven.
Well then, go back and read verse 12 again…….. because that verse further identifies that one is a SERVANT of God, and one is God, who deemed that SERVANT worthy to receive much glory, honor, and power.So yes, Jesus and his God Jehovah are both “powers in heaven”. But so are Jesus' spirit brothers. The fact that all of them are “powers in heaven” doesn't diminish the fact that only ONE is ever called “the MOST High”.
And it is only the MOST High who deserves our worship. We don't worship the servant AND the Master, Kathi. Only the MOST High Master.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2013,09:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:25) My claim is that this further identifies the two powers of heaven.
Well then, go back and read verse 12 again…….. because that verse further identifies that one is a SERVANT of God, and one is God, who deemed that SERVANT worthy to receive much glory, honor, and power.So yes, Jesus and his God Jehovah are both “powers in heaven”. But so are Jesus' spirit brothers. The fact that all of them are “powers in heaven” doesn't diminish the fact that only ONE is ever called “the MOST High”.
And it is only the MOST High who deserves our worship. We don't worship the servant AND the Master, Kathi. Only the MOST High Master.
MikeB.Have you turned into islam?
wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 16 2013,14:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 17 2013,00:24) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 10 2013,12:14) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 10 2013,02:12) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2013,19:26) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 08 2013,00:53) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2013,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 05 2013,02:16) Jesus is also Lord of all and the First and the Last and Jehovah of hosts. I don't see anywhere that He was 'appointed' as Lord of all or the First and the Last or Jehovah of hosts. All things were made through Him and for Him.
LU,Jesus is the First in the Last Messiah as there is no other. He is also the Alpha and Omega Heir as their is no other.
Jesus was appointed King over heaven and earth which means he was not already King over heaven and earth.
There nowhere that Scripture states Jesus is or was Jehovah of hosts.
All thing were made through him by his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead.
Kerwin,
You are adding your own bias to these. Can you admit that?you said:
Quote Jesus is the First in the Last Messiah as there is no other. He is also the Alpha and Omega Heir as their is no other. You added the word 'Messiah' and the word 'Heir' which is NOT in the scripture. You are forcing your opinion and adding to scripture. If left alone as inspired you will see that Jesus is identifying Himself with Jehovah.
Quote Jesus was appointed King over heaven and earth which means he was not already King over heaven and earth. Jesus was born 'King of the Jews” and after His resurrection He became King of kings from my understanding and possibly alludes to His human nature.
Quote There nowhere that Scripture states Jesus is or was Jehovah of hosts. Peter identifies Jesus as Jehovah of hosts from Isa 8, in 1 Peter 2.
Quote All thing were made through him by his death on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. What scripture do you have for that? Here you are adding to scripture AGAIN. You must surrender your own understanding in order to be able to see more clearly, Kerwin. You are stumbling over the stone who is Jehovah of hosts/Jesus.
LU,I am putting it like it is.
There is no evidence First and Last or Alpha and Omega are attempts by Jesus to identify himself with Jehovah. What they are is titles that state Jesus is the First and Last of a series just like Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega is the last letter.
First and the Last when in reference to Jehovah mean he is the only God. Jesus is the only Messiah, Heir, and perhaps other titles any of which can apply as neither he or God chose to be explicit.
I can not figure out what you are talking about that involves 1 Peter 2 and Isaiah 8. Please go into more detail.
Any Scripture that speaks of the new creation is teaching you that all things are made through him by his death and resurrection. Romans 8:22 is one.
Hi Kerwin,you said:
Quote
There is no evidence First and Last or Alpha and Omega are attempts by Jesus to identify himself with Jehovah. What they are is titles that state Jesus is the First and Last of a series just like Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet and Omega is the last letter.First and the Last when in reference to Jehovah mean he is the only God. Jesus is the only Messiah, Heir, and perhaps other titles any of which can apply as neither he or God chose to be explicit.
There is evidence that Jehovah alone in the OT claimed to be the 'First and the Last.' This was not a common title for random things of which there were just one of. The Jews must have known this title and that it was used for Jehovah alone. If a first century Jew heard someone take this title as their own, I would think they would consider it blasphemous. Wouldn't you agree? Jesus does not give us ANY evidence that He meant that He was the First and the Last “Messiah” in the context of Rev. 1.
You have to ask yourself what the first century Jew would think of when things were mentioned like this.
Quote I can not figure out what you are talking about that involves 1 Peter 2 and Isaiah 8. Please go into more detail. Any Scripture that speaks of the new creation is teaching you that all things are made through him by his death and resurrection. Romans 8:22 is one.
Regarding Jesus being identified as Jehovah of hosts…answer these two questions:
Who is the stone that is spoken about in 1 Peter 2:6, 7 and 8?What are the Bible passages that contain the specific scriptures which are being referenced from the OT here, do you know?
LU,Jehovah does not actually use first and the last a title in the Old Testament, he uses it to say he is the only God. Most of the time it is used to mean entirety. I am not sure it is a title in any of the cases in Revelations but I am curious why he did not say what he is first and last of. It is certainly not time as far as God is concerned. It may have been left vague in order to cover all things God is f
irst and last of. The same thing may have been done in Jesus' case but I lack knowledge to say so. Of course Jesus is the pioneer and finisher of the true gospel.The rock is the Law of Mosses but it symbolized Christ. The Law is rock both physically and spiritually as it is God's word written on rock. Through Christ we have access to the new covenant that is written in heats but is still rock.
The Law is not God nor is that which it symbolizes.
Hi Kerwin,
I asked you what OT passages that 1 Peter 2 was referring to. Can you tell me? When you find them, can you show me in those contexts that the 'stone/rock' is the law?Regarding the 'first and the last' comment that Jesus made about Himself…can you admit that Jesus used a description that was known to the Jews to describe YHVH and applied it to Himself?
LU,It is from Isaiah 28:16. It is a stone as is what the first 10 commandments of are written on. It is laid in Zion. He is speaking to those who led Jerusalem at that time, v14.
Peter uses the passage as symbolism of Christ as that covenant is a shadow of the new covenant.
No, I do not acknowledge that the first and last only applied to Yawheh. It is like any other title and truthfully applies to those it is true of.
Thanks Kerwin for showing me one of the passages. Here are the passages that are being referred to by Peter:Quote 1 Peter 2:6
For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”This quotes Isaiah 28:16
Therefore, thus said the Lord Jehovah: 'Lo, I am laying a foundation in Zion, A stone — a tried stone, a corner stone precious, a settled foundation, He who is believing doth not make haste.1 Peter 2:7
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”That quotes Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.1 Peter 2:8
and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.Which quotes Isaiah 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.Can you see that these are the OT verses that are being referred to, Kerwin?
you said:
Quote No, I do not acknowledge that the first and last only applied to Yawheh. It is like any other title and truthfully applies to those it is true of. Can you show me what other person besides God is referred to as the 'First and the Last?'
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2013,17:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:25) My claim is that this further identifies the two powers of heaven.
Well then, go back and read verse 12 again…….. because that verse further identifies that one is a SERVANT of God, and one is God, who deemed that SERVANT worthy to receive much glory, honor, and power.So yes, Jesus and his God Jehovah are both “powers in heaven”. But so are Jesus' spirit brothers. The fact that all of them are “powers in heaven” doesn't diminish the fact that only ONE is ever called “the MOST High”.
And it is only the MOST High who deserves our worship. We don't worship the servant AND the Master, Kathi. Only the MOST High Master.
Mike,
The two Powers of Heaven are together the Most High and worship is due them both. The Jews worshiped the Jehovah of hosts of Isaiah 8, which is who Peter identified Jesus as. The Jews worshiped as God the 'Word of Jehovah,' btw.Also, the only begotten Son of God who MADE all things in heaven cannot have any spirit brothers since HE directly made them and His Father indirectly made them through the only begotten Son. The Father and the Son would be the creator Father of any other beings in heaven, not a brother to any other heavenly beings.
According to the flesh, Jesus is a brother to His followers but according to the eternal Spirit of Jesus, He is their direct creator.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,23:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2013,09:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:25) My claim is that this further identifies the two powers of heaven.
Well then, go back and read verse 12 again…….. because that verse further identifies that one is a SERVANT of God, and one is God, who deemed that SERVANT worthy to receive much glory, honor, and power.So yes, Jesus and his God Jehovah are both “powers in heaven”. But so are Jesus' spirit brothers. The fact that all of them are “powers in heaven” doesn't diminish the fact that only ONE is ever called “the MOST High”.
And it is only the MOST High who deserves our worship. We don't worship the servant AND the Master, Kathi. Only the MOST High Master.
MikeB.Have you turned into islam?
wakeup.
Please explain, Wakeup. What I've said comes straight from the scriptures. Show me where I've spoken incorrectly.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 18 2013,14:32) The Father and the Son would be the creator Father of any other beings in heaven……….
Listen to yourself, Kathi.The Father and Son together are the Father of the spiritual beings?
We know that angels are called “sons of God”. And we know that Jesus is a son of God. That makes them brothers, as far as I'm concerned.
We also know that WE are sons of God, and that we will be BROTHERS to Jesus, and SONS to God in the new order. Perhaps you think you'll be God's SISTER in the new order, instead of His DAUGHTER?
Anyway, do you suppose since God calls the angels “son”, they call Him “father”? And doesn't Jesus call God “father” too? So if both the angels and Jesus are sons of God, and both of them call their God “father”, doesn't it make sense that they are brothers?
Or does it make more sense to you that the angels call Jesus AND Jehovah “father”? Because if Jesus is their “father”, then the father OF Jesus would be their GRANDFATHER.
Anyway, I can't compute any more of this. My brain is getting frazzled just thinking about the implication of what you claimed. And I'm getting flashbacks of that old TV series, My Two Dads.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 16 2013,16:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,19:48)
God chose to explain His relationship to Jesus as “Father/Son”. He explained it this way to HUMAN BEINGS, who would only understand a “father/son” relationship in one way, ie: the father ALWAYS exists before the son does.And I suppose you agree that all God's other SPIRIT sons were brought forth AFTER God had already existed for a while, right?
So it's not just because of “human sons” that I say this, Kathi.
So IMO, the “irresponsible argument” is YOUR out of the blue, unscriptural, and unsubstantiated claim that Jesus is the ONLY son in existence who has existed for as long as his father has.
Really tired of this argument, Mike. Do humans understand every human father to also have a father? Yes or No?
No. Because smart humans can understand that Adam, as the first human, did NOT have a human father……… but all who came after him did.So who exactly DOESN'T have a father, Kathi? The one WHO CAME FIRST, right?
So, which one DOESN'T have a father, Kathi? Jehovah, or Jesus? Because the one WITHOUT a father is the one WHO CAME FIRST.
Kathi? Any thoughts?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,10:59) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,23:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2013,09:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:25) My claim is that this further identifies the two powers of heaven.
Well then, go back and read verse 12 again…….. because that verse further identifies that one is a SERVANT of God, and one is God, who deemed that SERVANT worthy to receive much glory, honor, and power.So yes, Jesus and his God Jehovah are both “powers in heaven”. But so are Jesus' spirit brothers. The fact that all of them are “powers in heaven” doesn't diminish the fact that only ONE is ever called “the MOST High”.
And it is only the MOST High who deserves our worship. We don't worship the servant AND the Master, Kathi. Only the MOST High Master.
MikeB.Have you turned into islam?
wakeup.
Please explain, Wakeup. What I've said comes straight from the scriptures. Show me where I've spoken incorrectly.
MikeB.You said: no need to worship Jesus.
He just deserve honour.
And yet the scripture says to eat His flesh to have life.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 19 2013,06:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,10:59) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 17 2013,23:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2013,09:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 16 2013,13:25) My claim is that this further identifies the two powers of heaven.
Well then, go back and read verse 12 again…….. because that verse further identifies that one is a SERVANT of God, and one is God, who deemed that SERVANT worthy to receive much glory, honor, and power.So yes, Jesus and his God Jehovah are both “powers in heaven”. But so are Jesus' spirit brothers. The fact that all of them are “powers in heaven” doesn't diminish the fact that only ONE is ever called “the MOST High”.
And it is only the MOST High who deserves our worship. We don't worship the servant AND the Master, Kathi. Only the MOST High Master.
MikeB.Have you turned into islam?
wakeup.
Please explain, Wakeup. What I've said comes straight from the scriptures. Show me where I've spoken incorrectly.
MikeB.You said: no need to worship Jesus.
He just deserve honour.
And yet the scripture says to eat His flesh to have life.wakeup.
wthat is an allegory
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 18 2013,18:14) MikeB. You said: no need to worship Jesus.
I worship the ONE that Jesus himself worships, and taught us to worship.But we are already having this “worship” discussion in a different thread. No need to double up on it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,12:43) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 18 2013,18:14) MikeB. You said: no need to worship Jesus.
I worship the ONE that Jesus himself worships, and taught us to worship.But we are already having this “worship” discussion in a different thread. No need to double up on it.
Mike B.So that is your final desicion.
You worship only God.
Thats what the muslems teach.
For Jesus is only another prophet.Jesus said:Every knee shall bow down.
This includes your knees.wakeup.
w
Quote Jesus said:Every knee shall bow down.
This includes your knees.this practice was already in use at the time of King David ,the bend of one knee that is ,to render great honor and submission
Exactly Pierre.
Wakeup is reluctantly learning these things in another thread……. which is why I won't bother to reply to his last post in this one.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,12:08) Exactly Pierre. Wakeup is reluctantly learning these things in another thread……. which is why I won't bother to reply to his last post in this one.
MikeB.THe whole host in heaven bowed diwn to worship God and the Lamb.
Why would you seperate The Lamb from God,
and only worship God?Excuse me Lamb,could you just stand over there
so I can worship God only.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 20 2013,17:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,12:08) Exactly Pierre. Wakeup is reluctantly learning these things in another thread……. which is why I won't bother to reply to his last post in this one.
MikeB.THe whole host in heaven bowed diwn to worship God and the Lamb.
Why would you seperate The Lamb from God,
and only worship God?Excuse me Lamb,could you just stand over there
so I can worship God only.wakeup.
WWHAT PART OF THE WORD “WORSHIP” ARE THE PRACTICE
Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 20 2013,05:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,12:08) Exactly Pierre. Wakeup is reluctantly learning these things in another thread……. which is why I won't bother to reply to his last post in this one.
MikeB.THe whole host in heaven bowed diwn to worship God and the Lamb.
Why would you seperate The Lamb from God,
and only worship God?Excuse me Lamb,could you just stand over there
so I can worship God only.wakeup.
Hmmm………..So the whole congregation BOWED before God, and God's SERVANT, huh? Very good. That must have been one worthy and faithful SERVANT for everyone to bow before him and pay homage to him.
But is that “worship”? Or is “worship” something else, that is to be given ONLY to Jehovah, our God, like His SERVANT Jesus Christ told us?
Consider 1 Chronicles 29:20 in the KJV. Do you suppose the congregation BOWED before both Jehovah and His SERVANT David, to pay homage?
Or does it make more sense to you that these Israelites WORSHIPED the SERVANT of God, David, who they knew was just a man?
Let's put it this way: If you believe the Lamb, who is a SERVANT of God, was truly “worshiped”, then you must also believe that David, the SERVANT of God, was truly “worshiped”.
And if the “worship” of the Lamb is because the Lamb is God Himself, then the “worship” of David must also be because David was God Himself.
See? They are both similar examples of people bowing before God and one of His SERVANTS. So if one of the examples means the SERVANT actually IS “God”, then so does the other one.
And to answer your question, I would ABSOLUTELY worship ONLY God, and NOT His servant, the Lamb. (His Lamb is the one who taught me this.)
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