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Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2013,01:08) LU, I see a root as having faith.
Kerwin will see a root in any fashion that DOESN'T allow for Jesus having been both before and after David.
But keep talking guys. It is an interesting discussion.
Kerwin,
Perhaps a specific study on what the Bible has to say about 'roots' and particularly the roots of a lineage or nation would be good.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 22 2013,09:28) Kerwin,
Perhaps a specific study on what the Bible has to say about 'roots' and particularly the roots of a lineage or nation would be good.
LU,Perhaps.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2013,02:46) Hi Jack, I believe that the NT quotes the OT 'elohim' in regards to the elohim of Israel, as singular, that is why I don't think that you can make that argument.
Yes, because God is a unity but a plural unity. The singular does not contradict the plural.Example: The U.S. Governnment is composed of three separate powers, the Executive, The Legislative, and the Judicial. Three powers yet one power.
Our Constitution says that ours is a “government (singular) of the people….” This does not mean that we cannot distinguish between the three separate powers.
To all,
The gods of Israel are the Father.
The god of Israel is the Father.The gods of Israel are one.
The gods of Greece are many.
The gods of Egypt are many.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 28 2013,06:38) To all, The gods of Israel are the Father.
The god of Israel is the Father.The gods of Israel are one.
The gods of Greece are many.
The gods of Egypt are many.
Kerwin,Was God the Father the Christ too?
Moses said that God was the Rock and that He went with them:
And Jehovah WENT WITH THEM by day in a pillar of a cloud, to LEAD THEM the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night. Exodus 3:21
Of the Rock that delivered thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten the God that founded thee. Deuteronomy 32:18
Paul said that the Rock that WENT WITH THEM was “THE CHRIST.”
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that WENT WITH THEM: and that Rock was the Christ.
Was God the Father the Christ too? Yes or no?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 28 2013,04:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 16 2013,02:46) Hi Jack, I believe that the NT quotes the OT 'elohim' in regards to the elohim of Israel, as singular, that is why I don't think that you can make that argument.
Yes, because God is a unity but a plural unity. The singular does not contradict the plural.Example: The U.S. Governnment is composed of three separate powers, the Executive, The Legislative, and the Judicial. Three powers yet one power.
Our Constitution says that ours is a “government (singular) of the people….” This does not mean that we cannot distinguish between the three separate powers.
KJ………You are right the word ELOHIM is a uni-plural word , and in revelation it says there are SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD yes seven distinct spirits that make up that ONE ELOHIM .That uni-plural God said let “us” create create man in “our” image
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
KJ,
Quote And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that WENT WITH THEM: and that Rock was the Christ. Christ means Anointed.
Christ can also be the Spirit of God.
Quote And Jehovah WENT WITH THEM by day in a pillar of a cloud, to LEAD THEM the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night. Exodus 3:21 Jehovah tent in believers by the Christ Spirit. Here he tents in a cloud and fire instead.
The situation is that the Law was given to Mosses by angels.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Mar. 27 2013,11:58) The singular does not contradict the plural.
Nor does the use of the plural of majesty to speak of the one Almighty God contradict the fact that Jesus quoted that scripture as a singular “God”.Nor does your original claim even work for you UNLESS you are now claiming that we have MORE THAN ONE Almighty God.
Are you claiming that, Jack?
In Genesis 20:13 our translations have Abraham saying to Abimelech,
“God caused me to wander.”
But the Hebrew literally says,
“The Gods caused me to wander.”
The word “elohim” is always governed by the verb. If the verb is singular the word elohim is singular. But if the verb is plural the word elohim is plural. The verb is plural in Genesis 20:13. So the word elohim is plural. Abraham said, “The Gods caused me to wander.”
No one denies that Abraham said that Gods (pl) caused him to wander. But some Unitarian commentators who are desperate escape the fact that God is a plural unity, have suggested that Abraham was speaking about YHWH in the plural because he was addressing Abimelech, an idolater who worshipped many gods. But this explanation miserably fails for the following reasons:
1. Abimilech's polytheism was NOT the reason that Abraham said that Gods caused him to wander. Abraham had just said that the absence of the fear of God (sing) was the reason he lied about Sarah being his sister. It had nothing to do with his saying that Gods (pl) had caused him to wander.
Why would Abraham boldly confess God to Abimilech in the singular, and then in the next breath shrink back and say that Gods (pl) caused him to wander? The Unitarian explanation makes no sense!
2. In Gen 35:7 we find a second instance of elohim with the plural verb. About Jacob's building the altar at bethel our translations say,
“And he built there an altar and called the place, El Bet El, because there God revealed himself (plural) when he fled from his brother”
The phrase “God revealed himself to him” has the plural verb niglu meaning “they revealed themselves.” The scholars say that we could literally translate this phrase as “the gods revealed themselves to him.”
Here we cannot say that someone is trying to speak in the terms of an idolater since it is the narrator (Moses) himself who says these words.
KJ,
The customs changed between the time of Mosses and the time of Jesus as Mike pointed out.
1 Samuel 5:7
King James Version (KJV)7 And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.
Is Dagon also multiple gods that are one or is it the custom of the peoples of that time to use a plural to refer to a singular?
YHWH said that He will send His Malak to bring the people into the land that He has prepared for them. In verse 21 YHWH said that His Malak has His name in Him. Then in verse 25 YHWH Himself calls His Malak by the name “YHWH your God.”
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Malak before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.
22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
23 For My Malak will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.
24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.25 “So you shall serve YHWH your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
There it is! In verse 21 YHWH says that His name is in His Malak. Then in verse 25 YHWH refers to His Malak by the same name saying, “serve YHWH your God and HE will bless you.” Then He switches to the first person and says, “And I will take away your sickness.” There are clearly two distinct persons which are both identified as GodTherefore, Malak YHWH is YHWH!
Source:
Quote Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is still the major work on the idea of two powers in heaven in Jewish thought. Segal argued that the two powers idea was not deemed heretical in Jewish theology until the second century C.E. He carefully traced the roots of the teaching back into the Second Temple era (ca. 200 B.C.E.). Segal was able to establish that the idea’s antecedents were in the Hebrew Bible, specifically passages like Dan 7:9ff., Exo 23:20-23, and Exo 15:3. However, he was unable to discern any coherent religious framework from which these passages and others were conceptually derived. Persian dualism was unacceptable as an explanation since neither of the two powers in heaven were evil. Segal speculated that the divine warrior imagery of the broader ancient near east likely had some relationship…
…The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief. The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form. The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.
Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monotheism since either figure was indeed Yahweh. There was no second distinct god running the affairs of the cosmos. During the Second Temple period, Jewish theologians and writers speculated on an identity for the second Yahweh. Guesses ranged from divinized humans from the stories of the Hebrew Bible to exalted angels. These speculations were not considered unorthodox. That acceptance changed when certain Jews, the early Christians, connected Jesus with this orthodox Jewish idea.
This explains why these Jews, the first converts to following Jesus the Christ, could simultaneously worship the God of Israel and Jesus, and yet refuse to acknowledge any other god. Jesus was the incarnate second Yahweh. In response, as Segal’s work demonstrated, Judaism pronounced the two powers teaching a heresy sometime in the second century A.D.
From Two Powers in Heaven.And here is Segal's book, you can still buy it: Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism.
Note that the source says that the ancient Israelite knew TWO YHWHs. Did not Abraham say, The Gods have cause me to wander” (Gen. 20:13)? Did not Moses say that “they revealed themselves to Jacob Gen. (35:7)?KJ and all,
2 Chronicles 20:5-9
King James Version (KJV)5 And Jehoshaphat stood in the congregation of Judah and Jerusalem, in the house of the Lord, before the new court,
6 And said, O Lord God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?
7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?
8 And they dwelt therein, and have built thee a sanctuary therein for thy name, saying,
9 If, when evil cometh upon us, as the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name is in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help.In short the Messenger is the temple of Yawheh.
So then the answer to my question is “YES”? You DO now believe in TWO Almighty Gods – both of them named “YHWH”?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 01 2013,09:39) Did not Abraham say, The Gods have cause me to wander” (Gen. 20:13)?
This could have been from Abraham's polytheistic past. Even his grandson Jacob was polytheistic at first. Or it could have been for the benefit of the polytheistic Abimelech – to whom he was speaking. Suffice to say that there are MANY references later in scripture to the GOD (singular) of Abraham, right? Some of those references even came from the mouth of Jesus himself, right? Can you remember any inspired writer of scripture talking about the GODS of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? I can't.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 01 2013,09:39) Did not Moses say that “they revealed themselves to Jacob Gen. (35:7)?
Jacob had seen angels in Gen 28 – and called them gods. He wrestled with an angel in Gen 32, and said he had wrestled with a god. So in 35:7, Jacob could have been referring to gods who revealed themselves to him. One of those would be Jehovah Himself (who wasn't LITERALLY seen by the eyes of Jacob), and the others would be the angels he had seen.Jack, isn't this the same M-O that you used to have for the trinity? Aren't you completely ignoring many CLEAR scriptures just to focus all your attention on the difficult wording of TWO scriptures?
Well, at least Kathi will be happy that she finally has a Binitarian follower.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2013,05:59) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 01 2013,09:39) Did not Abraham say, The Gods have cause me to wander” (Gen. 20:13)?
This could have been from Abraham's polytheistic past. Even his grandson Jacob was polytheistic at first. Or it could have been for the benefit of the polytheistic Abimelech – to whom he was speaking. Suffice to say that there are MANY references later in scripture to the GOD (singular) of Abraham, right? Some of those references even came from the mouth of Jesus himself, right? Can you remember any inspired writer of scripture talking about the GODS of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? I can't.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 01 2013,09:39) Did not Moses say that “they revealed themselves to Jacob Gen. (35:7)?
Jacob had seen angels in Gen 28 – and called them gods. He wrestled with an angel in Gen 32, and said he had wrestled with a god. So in 35:7, Jacob could have been referring to gods who revealed themselves to him. One of those would be Jehovah Himself (who wasn't LITERALLY seen by the eyes of Jacob), and the others would be the angels he had seen.Jack, isn't this the same M-O that you used to have for the trinity? Aren't you completely ignoring many CLEAR scriptures just to focus all your attention on the difficult wording of TWO scriptures?
Well, at least Kathi will be happy that she finally has a Binitarian follower.
Mike,Even the Mesopotamians believed that the gods were children of the primary Gods. Abram might well have been either a monotheist or a bitheist as the later seems to have been common in the region.
The key word is “gods”, Kerwin. They believed in many gods. I don't think it's very likely that Abraham, before even meeting Jehovah for the first time, would have been monotheistic. Nor do I believe he would have had only TWO gods, when the norm was MANY gods.
But I wasn't there.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2013,08:05) The key word is “gods”, Kerwin. They believed in many gods. I don't think it's very likely that Abraham, before even meeting Jehovah for the first time, would have been monotheistic. Nor do I believe he would have had only TWO gods, when the norm was MANY gods. But I wasn't there.
Mike,They are said to believe in two primary gods. The rest are created gods. Some of the people of Canaan also believed in two Gods. In one case one of those so called Gods is called the City. She sounds like the bride/wife transformed from a personalization to a fellow God. I am not sure Abraham was ever a believer in more than one God. The norm was two Gods at that time. Egypt was an exception.
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