- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2010,12:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2010,18:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2010,20:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,16:16) So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God?
Okay WJ,No spin, just a simple question you refuse to answer. Does Scripture say anywhere that ALL things come FROM Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
MikeI see, Answer a question with a question?
Ok, who possesses all things? Then who does all things come from?
WJ
Hi WJ,I'll take that as a “NO”. Thanks.
peace and love,
mike
WJ,I have already given Mike two scriptures which say that grace, peace and mercy or grace and peace come FROM the Father AND Jesus Christ and Mike ignored them. Then there is also the Father's word that Jesus created all things BY HIS OWN HANDS. Therefore, all creation is derived FROM Jesus.
Mike should first answer your questions before he asks questions of you.
thinker
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2010,20:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2010,18:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2010,20:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,16:16) So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God?
Okay WJ,No spin, just a simple question you refuse to answer. Does Scripture say anywhere that ALL things come FROM Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
MikeI see, Answer a question with a question?
Ok, who possesses all things? Then who does all things come from?
WJ
Hi WJ,I'll take that as a “NO”. Thanks.
peace and love,
mike
MikeTake it as no if you like.
But I will take your answer to my 3 questions as a no also!
Hey everyone, Mike doesn't believe Jesus has all things, is that right Mike?
So apparantly somehow all things comes through Jesus to us but yet not from Jesus!
WJ
Hi TT,
Did you not know Jesus is the mediator between God and men?
Did you think they must both be individual gods?
Make sure the light in you is not darkness.Quote (thethinker @ April 22 2010,00:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2010,12:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2010,18:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2010,20:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,16:16) So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God?
Okay WJ,No spin, just a simple question you refuse to answer. Does Scripture say anywhere that ALL things come FROM Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
MikeI see, Answer a question with a question?
Ok, who possesses all things? Then who does all things come from?
WJ
Hi WJ,I'll take that as a “NO”. Thanks.
peace and love,
mike
WJ,I have already given Mike two scriptures which say that grace, peace and mercy or grace and peace come FROM the Father AND Jesus Christ and Mike ignored them. Then there is also the Father's word that Jesus created all things BY HIS OWN HANDS. Therefore, all creation is derived FROM Jesus.
Mike should first answer your questions before he asks questions of you.
thinker
JackNot only that but all creation was made for him!
Blessings Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2010,06:58) Quote (thethinker @ April 22 2010,00:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2010,12:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2010,18:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2010,20:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,16:16) So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God?
Okay WJ,No spin, just a simple question you refuse to answer. Does Scripture say anywhere that ALL things come FROM Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
MikeI see, Answer a question with a question?
Ok, who possesses all things? Then who does all things come from?
WJ
Hi WJ,I'll take that as a “NO”. Thanks.
peace and love,
mike
WJ,I have already given Mike two scriptures which say that grace, peace and mercy or grace and peace come FROM the Father AND Jesus Christ and Mike ignored them. Then there is also the Father's word that Jesus created all things BY HIS OWN HANDS. Therefore, all creation is derived FROM Jesus.
Mike should first answer your questions before he asks questions of you.
thinker
JackNot only that but all creation was made for him!
Blessings Keith
Yes Keith,Proverbs 16:4 says this:
Quote YHWH has made all things for Himself Colossians 1:17 says:
Quote All things were created by Him and for Him (Jesus) thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 22 2010,15:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 23 2010,06:58) Quote (thethinker @ April 22 2010,00:54) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2010,12:47) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 21 2010,18:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2010,20:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 20 2010,16:16) So tell me once again without all the spin how that if all things come through the Father and Jesus how Jesus is not equally God?
Okay WJ,No spin, just a simple question you refuse to answer. Does Scripture say anywhere that ALL things come FROM Jesus?
peace and love,
mike
MikeI see, Answer a question with a question?
Ok, who possesses all things? Then who does all things come from?
WJ
Hi WJ,I'll take that as a “NO”. Thanks.
peace and love,
mike
WJ,I have already given Mike two scriptures which say that grace, peace and mercy or grace and peace come FROM the Father AND Jesus Christ and Mike ignored them. Then there is also the Father's word that Jesus created all things BY HIS OWN HANDS. Therefore, all creation is derived FROM Jesus.
Mike should first answer your questions before he asks questions of you.
thinker
JackNot only that but all creation was made for him!
Blessings Keith
Yes Keith,Proverbs 16:4 says this:
Quote YHWH has made all things for Himself Colossians 1:17 says:
Quote All things were created by Him and for Him (Jesus) thinker
JackAnother one of those “equality” truths!
Keith
Quote (thethinker @ April 22 2010,16:54) WJ, I have already given Mike two scriptures which say that grace, peace and mercy or grace and peace come FROM the Father AND Jesus Christ and Mike ignored them. Then there is also the Father's word that Jesus created all things BY HIS OWN HANDS. Therefore, all creation is derived FROM Jesus.
Hi thinker,Already answered. I showed you that peace, grace and mercy can come from others besides God and Jesus. And apparently those people aren't God. Look back a few pages.
I'm going to finish my debate post for Wj, I might not get back to your bigger post today.peace and love,
mikeI can be absent a week or a year. Still the same merry-go-round. There is no point except added frustration.
martian……..Yes that is true brother, but we need to be patient and just try our best to hopefully add some thought to others, remember some may be new or just never thought of something the way God has Shown US, I have come to see some things here differently then i used to understand them before. Some of your reasonings have enlightened me and i am sure others also. Use you knowledge and understanding to edify us and bring clarification or else you are just burying your talents Brother. We are to put it out there to the money changers that it might be used by others also and a gain be made from it, to the glory of GOD.
Hope your doing better with you diabetic condition Brother.
peace and love to you and yours martian……………………gene
Quote (martian @ April 24 2010,12:08) I can be absent a week or a year. Still the same merry-go-round. There is no point except added frustration.
Hi Martian,I've already expressed my appreciation for what you posted once. I'm doing it again now. Thank you for the info.
Just because WJ and thinker and Is 1:18 are pros at the “bait and switch” tecnique doesn't mean others don't learn from your input. I sure did. And I won't let up on thinker about the fact that elohim actually means “gods”, not “persons in a godhead”. And that kings used it of themselves traditionally. The rest of his posts are just filler and evasive tactics that are off topic.
peace and love,
mikeThanks Gene and Mike. I do not have time much right now. I am only home for about 36 hours and then back to the hospital for 5 days.
I will post this and I hope it does not scare Thinker and WJ away. I am so very thankful that they are on this forum. Every minute they are on here means one less minute they are spreading their lies in the real world. They can cause little harm in this format and it keeps them confined to idle work with no purpose.
Yep, thank God for forums that keep their silliness out of the real populace of Christianity.Quote (martian @ April 25 2010,10:16) I am so very thankful that they are on this forum.
Hi Martian,I think we lost that battle. There's already way more of them than us. But “the road to everlasting life has few finding it”. I also appreciate that they are here. But my reason is that I learn so much from researching their claims. With more time, I will have an informed, Scripturally backed defense for anything a trinitarian ever hits me with. Is it Paul or Peter that says “always be prepared to make a defense for your faith”, or something to that effect. I'm preparing.
peace and love,
mikeYou said:
Quote Again, Jesus said “My Father” but never “My Lord.” And again, the Father also called Jesus “Lord” (Heb. 1:10) Yes. Jesus calls Jehovah “my God”, “my Father in heaven” and “the Lord of heaven and earth”. The Father NEVER called Jesus “my God” or “my Lord”.
You said:
Quote But God called Jesus “God” (Heb. 1:8). He meant that Jesus was the God of men. Did he call Jesus “my God” or not, Jack. Yes or no. It is a simple question.
You said:
Quote You cut n pasted again. I said that God appointed them into existence. Is that English? The word means “made” in this instance and you know it. Your addition of “into existence” means “to be made”. And the Scripture doesn't say, “God appointed the heavens and the earth to “be made” or “into existence”. If you want to use the word “appointed” in this case, then live with the consequences that the Scripture says, “God appointed the heavens and the earth…”. You can't add “into existence” when it's not there. Is that the way the Scripture makes sense to you, Jack? “God appointed the heavens and the earth…”?
You said:
Quote Second, Peter used the same word “poieo” in 2:36 saying, “God has appointed (poieo) Him both Lord and Christ.” Although the word “made” would also fit in this context, the word “appointed” in this case works just fine because there are the words “Lord” and “Christ” that explain what he was “appointed” to. Peter could not have said simply that God appointed him and left it at that. It wouldn't make sense without the words explaining what he was appointed to. And these words are not present in Acts 4.
You said:
Quote Circular. He is not in the flesh anymore. Circular. He still calls Jehovah “my God”.
You said:
Quote The KJV says “by Him.” The Greek “dia” means by direct agency. Online Bible Study Tools says:
Dia 2:65,149
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dee-ah' PrepositionDefinition
through
of place
with
in
of time
throughout
during
of means
by
by the means of
through
the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
by reason of
on account of
because of for this reason
therefore
on this accountWhat is a “half truth”, Jack?
You said:
Quote If it said, God created “by” Him you would have a case. I find it amusing that even while vehemently insisting that Jesus IS God, you and WJ use terminology that implies you think otherwise. Look at what you said. You specify that it is God who may or may not have created “by Jesus”. As if Jesus is not also God.
And WJ is sure that “the God” with whom the Word is in John 1:1 is “the Father”. Why could it not be your equal god “the Holy Spirit”? There are no words indicating it is the Father, yet WJ correctly interprets that the Father is the God who was with the Word in the beginning. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, just where was he in John 1:1? It sounds as if in the beginning, there was only God and the Word. Even if the Word WAS God, where's the third one? 
You said:
Quote Again, the Father said that Jesus created all things by His own hands.[/color][/b] So what? Bezalel created the tabernacle “by his own hands”. Was God not the original and ultimate source behind the creating of the tabernacle?
You said:
Quote The idea of origin had been dropped from the word “monogenes” before the new testament was written. Again, the authoritative Septuagint proves it. It says, “I am lonely and afflicted” (Ps. 25:16).
First, ACCORDING TO WHOM? Second, then we must AlWAYS translate it as “lonely”, right? Like I asked WJ, what is 1+1? Mono means “only”, and ginomai, the root word of genes means “to be made”. The only reason the trinitarian scholars have the “new discovery” of the meaning that has been accepted for thousands of years, is because they can't have one word shooting down their man-made doctrine. So now they add new man-made definitions for long accepted word meanings. But I have already showed you, (and in today's post to WJ in our debate I have showed him) – even using your new definition, it means the same basic thing. Jesus came AFTER Jehovah and is not the same being as Jehovah.
You said:
Quote Where does the Scripture say that Jesus was a servant BEFORE His incarnation? Philippians 2 says that He existed in God's form and BECAME a servant. You are given to a whole lot of presupposition. Again, what is 1+1? If Jesus was a servant on earth, and he is a servant now – after he was raised back to his original glory and position – then he must have been a servant then.
You said:
Quote What other way is there to interpret it? The Father addressed His Son saying, “The heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS.” And the tabernacle was the work of Bezalel's hands.
You said:
Quote But the word “servant” is not present in the text. The word is “child.” The
word is “boy”. The same word that today can be exchanged for “servant”. Are you prepared to change every mention of “boy” in the NT to “child”? Will there be any “servants” left?You said:
Quote Paul teaches that a child is the same as a servant but a son is a servant no more (Galatians 4). You are referring to verse 7 , I assume. Starting with verse 4 it says:
4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.
Are you interpreting that we are no longer servants of God? Look at the first bolded part – the word “sent” shows that Jesus was clearly God's Son before he was born of a woman. He was clearly God's Son after he was born of a woman. But you agree that Jesus was a servant of God while on earth. While he was a Son. But then you say now that he is the Son, he is no longer a servant. The wording is confusing, I'll grant you, but if Jesus is no longer a servant of God because he is a son, then neither are we.
And look at the second part I bolded. If we are sons like Jesus, then we are also heirs like Jesus. Heirs of God, not Jesus. You could say, “Joint heirs with Christ”.
You said:
Quote And Peter was indeed asking for a work to be done on the grounds of Christ's COMPLETED work. His completed work is the ground of all gifts and blessings we receive. You celebrate prematurely. Christ's work and our promise was completed when he was raised. First, you post pages and pages in our debate saying that Jesus wasn't the Son of God or the Christ until he was raised. Now you say they pray through the name of Jesus only when he was on earth – the same Jesus who wasn't even the Son yet according to you. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. So, if he wasn't the Son on earth, how can they be asking for miracles through “God's earthly child”? Admit it Jack, Acts 4 kicks the crap out of the trinity doctrine.
You said:
Quote Jesus has taken full possession of HIS kingdom![/color][/b] There is only one kingdom, Jack. Who does it actually belong to? The king who will rule over it, or the God to whom it belongs?
You said:
Quote The word in Psalm 110:1 is not the same word that appears in verse 5. I indicated this at the beginning. In verse 1 the word is “adon” (see Strong's # 113). In verse 5 the word is “adonay” (Strong's 3 136). Strong's and the TWOT agree that the name in verse 5 applies to God alone. Strong's says that “adonay” is “an emphatic form of “'adown”, the word in verse one. Both words have the definition I posted before. And neither word is EVER translated as God in the KJV. Besides, what's the point? Thomas obviously called Jesus “my god”. He is a god in the sense that was used by the Hebrews. But never “The God”, Jehovah.
You said:
Quote I gave you Paul's statement that the son “WILL BE” subject to the Father. This indicates that Jesus was not subject then. Are you going to get around to answering this soon? Should I plan my funeral waiting on you? Answer it in our debate thread ( if you haven't yet). I hope you have more than that, though.
You said:
Quote Ah, but it doesn't say that all through the Bible. Yes, it does. And everytime, it is referring to God putting Jesus' enemies under his feet. It's funny how you like to take a quote from Paul, who applies something said about someone else to Jesus, and it has to be word for word literal. But when Paul quotes this Scripture, it is all of a sudden Jesus who will put his own enemies as a footstool. Pure denial.
You said:
Quote The scripture says that God will subjugate his enemies. It says also that Christ will subjugate His enemies (Philippians 3:21). I know I know, you're going to answer with your “because” clause in Philippians 3:21. Show your “because” clause. I want proof! Everything including “all power and authority” has been given to Jesus from his God, Jehovah.
You said:
Quote It means “On My authority” in both instances. So my point stands that Jesus would have ALL authority at His exaltation. So “at his exaltation” is when people started asking for miracles from God “through his name”? Like in Acts 4 where they still call him God's “servant”? You can't have it both ways, Jack.
You said:
Quote Second, near the end of the discourse His disciples replied saying, “Now we believe that you know ALL THINGS.” Note that Jesus did not correct them. He answered them saying, “Do you really believe?” Yes, he has learned everything he knows from his Father. And he says as much.
You said:
Quote So even if H was still a servant would prove only a functional inequality. Ah, there's the “break” I knew was inevitable. Now, instead of ignoring what Acts 4 says, you are trying to rationalize it. Equal is equal, Jack. Either Jesus is 100% equal God, or he is not. Which is it?
You said:
Quote The COMPLETED work of Christ in the days of His flesh is the grounds of all blessings we receive. And when was it COMPLETED? When he was raised, right?
You said:
Quote Do you deny that “doxa” means “power” in reference to God raising Jesus from the dead? While I don't see “power” as a definition for the word in OBST, maybe it could mean “majesty” in this referrence. So what? Does that mean it always means majesty? Does it mean it has to mean “majesty” in John 2?
You said:
Quote 1. You did not answer my point inwhich I showed that the Father calls Jesus “Lord” (Heb. 1:10). See my posts to Is 1:18 about that. The ones he never could answer to so he passed it off to you and WJ.
You said:
Quote 2. You have not answered Paul's statement that Christ “will be” subject to the Father (future from the writing of the book). I believe I answered it very intelligently by saying your “Now I'm God, now I'm not God” theory is very flawed. It makes no sense to anybody who has not been brainwashed into believing what they can't even understand, let alone explain to anyone else.
I also answered it by saying it is like God has given the signet ring to Jesus for a while. Later He will take it back and rule directly.
You said:
Quote I should have given you the benefit of the doubt unlike with Martian. I believe you did not intentionally leave out facts from the TWOT. But you are not using it properly. Your post reflects you think the word in Psalm 110:1 & 5 have the same meaning. I DID think they were the same word. I know now that they are not, and that one is “an emphatic way of saying” the other. The OBST gives the same basic definitions for both.
And you are the last person on HN that should be calling anyone else a liar. I don't lie, Jack. I might change my interpretation of what a particular Scripture means in light of new knowledge I've gained, but I don't lie. I don't use TWOT. I use OBST and the Watchtower and the Scriptures. Sometimes a dictionary. What I paste is what is there.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/adonay.html
That's where I got the info I have on “adonay”. Check it out for yourself.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2010,11:46) Quote (martian @ April 25 2010,10:16) I am so very thankful that they are on this forum.
Hi Martian,I think we lost that battle. There's already way more of them than us. But “the road to everlasting life has few finding it”. I also appreciate that they are here. But my reason is that I learn so much from researching their claims. With more time, I will have an informed, Scripturally backed defense for anything a trinitarian ever hits me with. Is it Paul or Peter that says “always be prepared to make a defense for your faith”, or something to that effect. I'm preparing.
peace and love,
mike
I too (at one time) thought I would sharpen my tools with forum debate, but came to a conclusion that no amount of debate can win a soul or change a life. Only the power of God in me can effect lives. My character must be changed to be like his.
I also realized that a simper approach is to see the purpose of doctrine to see if it is a valid concept. What are the fruits of various doctrines. Christ as a man gives me hope that I can actually be like him as scripture demands. Christ as a God denies me that opportunity.
Christ as a God separates him from the rest of humanity and makes him a far off creature. Christ as a man makes him my brother.
Christ as a dual natured creature complicates his nature into an incomprehensible myth that cannot be explained without causing great contradiction.
Christ as a man is straight forward and simple to understand.Regardless of the “so-called” scriptural proof of the divine Christ they cannot show fruit that is possible with Christ as a man.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2010,11:46) Quote (martian @ April 25 2010,10:16) I am so very thankful that they are on this forum.
Hi Martian,I think we lost that battle. There's already way more of them than us. But “the road to everlasting life has few finding it”. I also appreciate that they are here. But my reason is that I learn so much from researching their claims. With more time, I will have an informed, Scripturally backed defense for anything a trinitarian ever hits me with. Is it Paul or Peter that says “always be prepared to make a defense for your faith”, or something to that effect. I'm preparing.
peace and love,
mike
One more thing. I have just about given up on trying to convince anyone on these types of venues. My focus is to actually become like Christ in character. Not just as a nice debate point but to actually do it.
When I become christ like enough I expect to be granted the privledge of exercising God's power on Earth.
It makes no difference to me if the Trinitarians out number me a million to one. When one of their Children becomes sick and their triune God can't heal them I would be blessed to have my God do it. Believe me they will drop their man made doctrines for the real thing.
This is real life and a reality due to come.Quote (martian @ April 25 2010,13:41) When I become christ like enough I expect to be granted the privledge of exercising God's power on Earth.
Hi Martian,It's clear that you have been frustrated by some of the people here. You think it is fruitless to try. Maybe some of it stems from your health issues, maybe not. I pray that I will never give up on trying to bring someone to God.
I'm aware that the Bible implies not to waste time on ones who show no sign of believing, for it takes time away from ones who are willing to accept truth. But Jesus knew the Scriptures inside and out. He was prepared for anything the unbeliever could throw at him. That's one way to be like Jesus. I read the Scriptures front to back over and over and I won't stop until I die, God willing. I want to answer as quickly and authoritively as he did, with no doubt of what the Scriptures actually say. I want to KNOW without hesitation what they do say. Thinker and WJ help me get to that point.
Maybe it will get old and frustrating to me in time. God knows I've pulled my hair out a couple of times. But don't forget the other people who read the posts. If you had given up because of frustration, I would have never gained the knowledge I did from your posts.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2010,14:59) Quote (martian @ April 25 2010,13:41) When I become christ like enough I expect to be granted the privledge of exercising God's power on Earth.
Hi Martian,It's clear that you have been frustrated by some of the people here. You think it is fruitless to try. Maybe some of it stems from your health issues, maybe not. I pray that I will never give up on trying to bring someone to God.
I'm aware that the Bible implies not to waste time on ones who show no sign of believing, for it takes time away from ones who are willing to accept truth. But Jesus knew the Scriptures inside and out. He was prepared for anything the unbeliever could throw at him. That's one way to be like Jesus. I read the Scriptures front to back over and over and I won't stop until I die, God willing. I want to answer as quickly and authoritively as he did, with no doubt of what the Scriptures actually say. I want to KNOW without hesitation what they do say. Thinker and WJ help me get to that point.
Maybe it will get old and frustrating to me in time. God knows I've pulled my hair out a couple of times. But don't forget the other people who read the posts. If you had given up because of frustration, I would have never gained the knowledge I did from your posts.
peace and love,
mike
Unfortunately many believing that “knowing” some fact or debate issue means they are growing in God. It does not necessarily mean that have acquired the knowledge in an experiantial way. I am much less interested in learning some more head knowledge or ability to dissect a book then I am in real living and fruitful relationship with my Father.
Too many people are in love with scripture while leaving the real person of God behind. The Bible is a book about God. I want God himself. I want to give people friendship that comes from God, not just some debate topics.
Most people run from this because it requires real vulnerability to the people around them. Debate requires hiding behind some intellectual data. It is a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. There is no power of God in debating head data.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
