- This topic is empty.
- Posts
To all,
I have revealed a Trinity 'change of doctrine' to some in this forum by PM, but I now reveal it in public:
The Trinity doctrine 'now' does NOT state that the three are 'CoEqual Gods' but that they are 'CoExistent and CoEternal'.
This is a very significant shift in their belief.
But wait, I love that, …there's more…
The Father is now the Source of ALL things and the initiator and is superior to the Son.
And, the Son is superior to the Holy Spirit.But they are, all three, the One God at all times.
Now, please think about this……….
Ok, that's enough time. What did you make of it?The Father is NOT the God of the Son, He is just superior.
The Holy Spirit is NOT the Holy Spirit of the Father but the Holy Spirit IN The God, just as the Father is just the Father IN the God, but wait again… Jesus is The Son… the Son of God… The Son of God, NOT of the Father.
(The one called)The Father is just 'God' who isn't 'The God' just the superior one in the God.
(The one called) the Son is just another 'God' who isn't 'The God' but just the lesser superior one in the God.
The Holy Spirit is 'of the God'.So who, what 'is' God, by Trinity creed?
Ok, coeternal? Jesus died…
Coexistent, Jesus became man…Enough…
Hi JA,
I just checked out the got questions site. I see where you are getting this, but I would like to know if that is the “official” satement of any church now.
Hey WJ, Roo, Paul…has the “official” creed been changed like JA asserts?
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Even if the 'change' that was read is just from that site, it drew out some interesting impossible concepts about the Trinity.Like, Who is God?
'previously/currently', it is believed that NONE of the Three is God alone.Therefore, how can the Holy Spirit be the Spirit of the Father, and be a separate person, and be the Spirit of God?
And the Son is the Son of God, but the Father is NOT God, just IN God, but not In God but IS God, the SaMe God that the Son IS?
Therefore there IS NO Son, just another person inthe Godhead of a lesser order,…except that the doctrine …said… That they are COEQUAL, so how can he be lesser?
The new view makes this possible…
WJ and KJ are already saying that Jesus was not equal in status, level, heirachy, with God, haha.., the Father, they really meant to say…haha but is lesser in heirachy BUT equal in Nature (Not CoEqual, but CoExistent and CoEternal).Ask them to explain this.
I can't cos WJ says he ain't talking with me because he put together what he thought was a really smart “this'll get'im” theology thesis, to which I answered him without batting an eyelid so he complained that I hadn't answered him (I didn't say what he wanted me to say), so, i, again answered him, but he still claimed that I wasn't answering him so now he's going to do like me ……… and not answer me? His logic escapes me…
Quote (JustAskin @ May 31 2010,05:06) WJ and KJ are already saying that Jesus was not equal in status, level, heirachy, with God, haha.., the Father, they really meant to say…haha but is lesser in heirachy BUT equal in Nature (Not CoEqual, but CoExistent and CoEternal).
Hi JA,
They do that all the time! I usually just laugh to myself.
Don't worry about WJ. He'll love you again tomorrow. He has a quota of 10,000 words a day he must post. I'm only doing short posts from now on if I can help it. He'll need to use up some of those words on you eventually.
peace brother,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2010,09:41) Quote (Lightenup @ May 28 2010,16:32) Hi Mike,
What would you think if Jesus was called Jehovah Saves, or Jehovah our Righteous? Do you think that those names would fit Him?Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
KJV6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, “Jehovah OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
KJV“Y@hovah tsidqenuw” is the Hebrew term here.
You wrote:
Quote
Who do you think Jesus refers to when he says God?I think He is referring to He and His Father.
Quote
Fair enough if I speak as Mike who lives in 2010. But what if I speak as Moses or any other Israelite who lived during and after the exodus? As Moses, I only know Jehovah, the God and Father and Creator of us all. I know of no “Jehovah the Son”. So inspired or not, anytime I read the Law and the Prophets, I know for a fact that when it says YHWH, it means Jehovah God. And I know for a fact that He is ONE.THe OT oneness is made more clear in the NT when Jesus said that the Father and Him are one.
I worship them as united, not divided…don't worry so much.
Blessings,
Kathi
Hi Kathi,You said:
Quote “Jehovah OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
KJV“Y@hovah tsidqenuw” is the Hebrew term here.
Yes. And it is translated “Jehovah is our righteousness.”
Do you know that many people in the Bible have “Jehovah” in their name? Are they all God? Take “Immanuel” for instance. It means “God is with us”. What if it was Moses who had that name? Would it mean “God is with us” or would it mean that Moses IS the God who is with us? Don't read more into it than what is there.You said:
Quote I think He is referring to He and His Father. How do you get that from, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God”?
You said:
Quote THe OT oneness is made more clear in the NT when Jesus said that the Father and Him are one. I worship them as united, not divided…don't worry so much.
You worship two as God, period. It doesn't matter what spin you put on it. Were are to worship and serve as God only One, not two.
And there are some followers of Jesus who may already be one with him and his God – do you worship them also because they are one with Jesus and God?
In the OT, there is only one God Almighty, right? Same in the NT. In the whole Bible, this is the One we are to worship – no other. Is the Son this Almighty God?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,you said:
Quote Yes. And it is translated “Jehovah is our righteousness.” Actually it is translated as Jehovah Our Righteousness and is the name that Jesus will be called. There does not seem to be the verb 'is' in the Hebrew so I do not know why some translations add it, maybe they are uncomfortable with it like you seem to be. You do know that Jesus is our righteousness, right?
I know that many people have the word Jehovah in their name but they were given that name by man. Jesus, on the other hand is given the name Jehovah Our Righteousness, or Jehovah Saves by His Father, Jehovah.
You are correct that Emmanuel means 'God with us' and I do believe that Jesus is the begotten God…it's simple to me. The begotten God is with us.
Quote How do you get that from, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God”? I think that Jesus was looking for the evidence of faith by asking that question. He didn't find it with him though. If the guy had answered 'but you are God as the Son of God would be' then Jesus might have responded that he wouldn't have known that unless it had been given him by the Father. And yes, I am speculating here but you asked my opinion.
Quote You worship two as God, period. It doesn't matter what spin you put on it. Were are to worship and serve as God only One, not two. And there are some followers of Jesus who may already be one with him and his God – do you worship them also because they are one with Jesus and God?
In the OT, there is only one God Almighty, right? Same in the NT. In the whole Bible, this is the One we are to worship – no other. Is the Son this Almighty God?
I worship them together as the Almighty God of our salvation. Take away the Son from the Father and you do not have a God of our salvation. Many religions see the Father apart from the Son in their salvation but Christians don't. Jesus is the only way to the Father.
Kathi said:
Quote Jesus, on the other hand is given the name Jehovah Our Righteousness, or Jehovah Saves by His Father, Jehovah.
Hi Kathi,Your statement above is not totally accurate though it is certainly much better than Mikeboll's views. Jesus is “Jehovah our righteousness” properly and not just “by the Father” as you say. In Romans 5 Paul said that we are justified by the obedience of Christ. Paul said that we are the righteousness of God “IN HIM” (Jesus).
The prophet did not say that Jesus is Jehovah saves “by His Father.” This is your over activeimagination in operation again.
Mike is totally lost. But you are always so close and yet so far.
the Roo
Roo,
The angel told Mary that the Son's name would be Jesus, and the angel is the messenger of God and Jesus means Jehovah Saves, does it not? Isn't Jesus' Father, God, and therefore God gave His Son the name 'Jesus.' Mary and Joseph did not come up with His name.Quote (JustAskin @ May 30 2010,11:32) The Trinity doctrine 'now' does NOT state that the three are 'CoEqual Gods' but that they are 'CoExistent and CoEternal'
This is untrue and I would like to see where the Creeds or any Trinitarian has said that they are “Co-equal Gods”.No one has changed anything.
As far as your ad hominems, they also are untrue and simply more of you distortions and misrepresentations!
Show a single post on this forum where Jack, Paul or myself has ever claimed what you are saying or changed our doctrine!
Quotes please?
Please cough up the proof!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2010,10:04) Roo,
The angel told Mary that the Son's name would be Jesus, and the angel is the messenger of God and Jesus means Jehovah Saves, does it not? Isn't Jesus' Father, God, and therefore God gave His Son the name 'Jesus.' Mary and Joseph did not come up with His name.
Sorry Kathi but I don't follow you. We were condemned by Adam's disobedience and justified by Christ's obedience. Christ's obedience was credited to our account. Jesus Himself and by Himself is “Jehovah our righteousness.”
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who was made (appointed) for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 1 Corinthians 1:30
Christ Himself was appointed to be our righteousness. His Father is not our righteousness. The Father appointed and accepted His Son as our righteousness. Therefore, Jesus is “Jehovah our righteousness” in His own right.
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 01 2010,18:51) Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2010,10:04) Roo,
The angel told Mary that the Son's name would be Jesus, and the angel is the messenger of God and Jesus means Jehovah Saves, does it not? Isn't Jesus' Father, God, and therefore God gave His Son the name 'Jesus.' Mary and Joseph did not come up with His name.Sorry Kathi but I don't follow you. We were condemned by Adam's disobedience and justified by Christ's obedience. Christ's obedience was credited to our account. Jesus Himself and by Himself is “Jehovah our righteousness.”
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who was made (appointed) for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 1 Corinthians 1:30
Christ Himself was appointed to be our righteousness. His Father is not our righteousness. The Father appointed and accepted His Son as our righteousness. Therefore, Jesus is “Jehovah our righteousness” in His own right.
the Roo
Hi Roo,
I don't believe that Jesus could be Jehovah Our Righteousness apart from the wisdom and power that He received from the Father. Together they are our righteousness. Jesus did His part well.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 02 2010,10:51) 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who was made (appointed) for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 1 Corinthians 1:30
Hey Jack,Don't you think that when you have to start adding parenthesis and words that explain to us how YOU understand the scripture, something is wrong?
It says “made for us wisdom from God.” Maybe like in Proverbs, huh?
Btw, about Jehovah our righteousness, OBST says:
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Y@hovah tsidqenuw None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ye-ho-vaw' tsid-kay'-noo Proper Name MasculineDefinition
Jehovah is our righteousness
a sacred name symbolically applied to Jerusalem and the Messiahhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicon….uw.html
I mentioned to Kathi, and OBST confirms that the name is used for Jerusalem as well as Jesus. In Jer 33:16, it is used for Jerusalem:
. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem itself will reside in security. And this is what she will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.’”Is Jerusalem also now “Jehovah Junior”?
And this is the question I asked both Kathi and WJ: If it was Moses who had the name Immanuel, would you take it to mean simply “God is with us” or would you take it to mean that Moses IS the God who is with us?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ June 02 2010,09:26) Actually it is translated as Jehovah Our Righteousness and is the name that Jesus will be called. There does not seem to be the verb 'is' in the Hebrew so I do not know why some translations add it, maybe they are uncomfortable with it like you seem to be. You do know that Jesus is our righteousness, right? I know that many people have the word Jehovah in their name but they were given that name by man. Jesus, on the other hand is given the name Jehovah Our Righteousness, or Jehovah Saves by His Father, Jehovah.
Hi Kathi,Read the post to Roo above.
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
