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Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 24 2010,16:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2010,14:45) First and foremost, if it says Jehovah in the OT, it means the Father.
That's a presupposition. I'd like to see you try to prove it. Good luck!
And I would like to see you prove that there is such a creature as “Jehovah the Son”.I don't believe in luck. I think the Bible frowns on that kind of superstitious stuff.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 25 2010,05:47) Paul, This is why I decided to follow your advice and drop my debate with Mike. He is indeed a “stiff necked scoffer”!
Jack
Tell the truth, Roo.You stopped with our debate about the time I showed you the Eusebius letter from your buddy's post.
All that time and energy spent trying to convince me that monogenes didn't have the meaning of only begotten by the time of the septuagint.
All to be ruined by one letter that a trinitarian posted.Remember? The letter where Eusebius said that Jesus was the only begotten (monogenes) Son, and then one sentence later said he was begotten (genao) by the Father before time or something like that? The letter that was written at least 300 years after you say only begotten wasn't the definition anymore?
And you also knew that once you lost on the only begotten point (as you had already given up hope on pasa ktisis), you would have to deal with the fact that being at someone's right hand NEVER EVER meant equality with that person. And since that's where your #2 God is right now – at the right hand of his God – he cannot be equal, let alone the same exact being as the one he is at the right hand of.
And further, since he was raised to a position higher than the one he left to come to earth, and that position is not equality with his God, then you must concede that your #2 God was NEVER equal to his God.
Sorry for the rant, Kathi. It is off topic, but come to think of it, so is our conversation.
I don't mind Paul and Roo's comments until they lie about me. Seriously, I'm a “stiff necked scoffer” because I don't believe in a trinity? 
I'll get to your post hopefully tomorrow. It's late, good night.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2010,15:32) You misspoke. You posted what is not true.
I agree I took a little licence with the paraphrased statement on your position, but I think I got it generally right. The later part was an inference that can rightly be taken based on the position you have taken.Quote For the record, I said exactly what I told JA. If you are so sure that applying what was formerly said of Jehovah to Jesus means he is the exact same being as Jehovah, then applying what was formerly said of Solomon to Jesus must therefore mean that he is the exact same being as Solomon.
Umm no. Yeshua is the subject of Hebrews 1, not Solomon – so your point here is not valid.Quote (david @ May 24 2010,16:22) These words in Hebrews 1:10,11 also apply to Jesus, for he acted as Jehovah’s Agent in creating the universe. The Son is the one through whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (Colossians 1:15,16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) So Jesus, too, could be said to have “laid the foundations of the earth.” As we have discerned, scripture is often applied to more than one. It often “dual applications” as mentioned.
David,Hebrews 1:10 says nothing of Jehovah creating the physical universe “through” Christ. The Father HIMSELF said that the creation is the work of the Son's own hands.
I repeat: The Father Himself said that the Son created the physical universe by His own hands.
Verse 2 says that through Him God appointed the “ages” (human history). But verse 10 clearly says that the physical creation was created by the Son's own hands. Neither does John 1:1-3 or Colossians 1:15 say a word about God creating through Christ. Jesus is presented as the immediate agent in creation in those passages.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,08:14) Neither does John 1:1-3 or Colossians 1:15 say a word about God creating through Christ. Jesus is presented as the immediate agent in creation in those passages.
Hi Roo,Scripture begs to differ with you. John 1:1-3 NIV:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
As far as Col 1:15, various translations render it “by him”, “through him”, and “in him”. The Greek word “en” can mean any of them. If in doubt, remember what Paul said,
1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Bezalel was the “immediate agent” who built the tabernacle. Did he do it without God's help? Did not the tabernacle truly come FROM God? Read the scriptures, man. Everything comes FROM God THROUGH someone who is NOT God named Jesus. We live FOR God THROUGH someone who is NOT God, but a mediator between us and God, named Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Is 1:18 @ May 25 2010,19:39) Umm no. Yeshua is the subject of Hebrews 1, not Solomon – so your point here is not valid.
Hi Paul,Umm, okay. Jesus is the subject. So something said about Jehovah is applied to this subject. You think that makes the subject Jehovah. The same reasoning has to apply when something said about Solomon is applied to the subject, right?
peace and love,
mikeLightenup,May wrote:[/quote]
Hi Kathi,You said:
Quote Great! Is He Lord or lord? He is lord in the Greek. Don't get so hung up on the capital letters. A noble man is lord. King David was lord. Christ is lord. Jehovah is lord.
You said:
Quote So, don't limit yourself by what Jesus taught about Himself. I don't. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus said to be “Jehovah the Son”. Can God have a God, Kathi? We are told to worship ONLY the God who has no other God. The Almighty God Jehovah the Father.
You said:
Quote So, you mentioned that there is only one who is good and then you tack on “your Father in heaven.” What verse adds “your Father in heaven?” My bad. I went by memory instead of looking it up. So much for my memory.
You are right, it says God. Who do you think Jesus refers to when he says God?You said:
Quote I read a commentary that suggested that the ruler sees the Good Teacher as God and that is why he calls Him good. I wonder if Jesus was looking for faith in the ruler. Un-scriptural poppycock. Jesus said that OUR God was HIS God. He never claimed to be God, or even “a god”.
You said:
Quote Big speculation on your part. If the writers of the Bible were inspired to write 'Jehovah' then they wrote 'Jehovah.' They didn't write only things they understood. The 'Jehovahs' listed in scripture could refer to the Father or the Son if the Father had given His name to His Son. Fair enough if I speak as Mike who lives in 2010. But what if I speak as Moses or any other Israelite who lived during and after the exodus? As Moses, I only know Jehovah, the God and Father and Creator of us all. I know of no “Jehovah the Son”. So inspired or not, anytime I read the Law and the Prophets, I know for a fact that when it says YHWH, it means Jehovah God. And I know for a fact that He is ONE.
And since we are discussing many of the same things in two different threads, I don't know if you answered this: I agree the writers were inspired DURING the writing. But why did no one read it later and think what you and Roo think?
You said:
Quote There is no scripture that specifically says it was Jehovah the Father, or Jehovah the Angel or the Angel of Jehovah either. But as Moses, I know that Jehovah our God is ONE.
Don't worship more than one God, Kathi. It is forbidden throughout scripture. Why do you think the pagans try to fit their three gods into one Godhead?
Maybe we should combine our discussions in a new thread. We could call it, “Lighten up and all her nonsense”?
Just kidding. 
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2010,22:26) Lightenup,May wrote:[/quote]
Hi Kathi,You said:
Quote Great! Is He Lord or lord? He is lord in the Greek. Don't get so hung up on the capital letters. A noble man is lord. King David was lord. Christ is lord. Jehovah is lord.
You said:
Quote So, don't limit yourself by what Jesus taught about Himself. I don't. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus said to be “Jehovah the Son”. Can God have a God, Kathi? We are told to worship ONLY the God who has no other God. The Almighty God Jehovah the Father.
You said:
Quote So, you mentioned that there is only one who is good and then you tack on “your Father in heaven.” What verse adds “your Father in heaven?” My bad. I went by memory instead of looking it up. So much for my memory.
You are right, it says God. Who do you think Jesus refers to when he says God?You said:
Quote I read a commentary that suggested that the ruler sees the Good Teacher as God and that is why he calls Him good. I wonder if Jesus was looking for faith in the ruler. Un-scriptural poppycock. Jesus said that OUR God was HIS God. He never claimed to be God, or even “a god”.
You said:
Quote Big speculation on your part. If the writers of the Bible were inspired to write 'Jehovah' then they wrote 'Jehovah.' They didn't write only things they understood. The 'Jehovahs' listed in scripture could refer to the Father or the Son if the Father had given His name to His Son. Fair enough if I speak as Mike who lives in 2010. But what if I speak as Moses or any other Israelite who lived during and after the exodus? As Moses, I only know Jehovah, the God and Father and Creator of us all. I know of no “Jehovah the Son”. So inspired or not, anytime I read the Law and the Prophets, I know for a fact that when it says YHWH, it means Jehovah God. And I know for a fact that He is ONE.
And since we are discussing many of the same things in two different threads, I don't know if you answered this: I agree the writers were inspired DURING the writing. But why did no one read it later and think what you and Roo think?
You said:
Quote There is no scripture that specifically says it was Jehovah the Father, or Jehovah the Angel or the Angel of Jehovah either. But as Moses, I know that Jehovah our God is ONE.
Don't worship more than one God, Kathi. It is forbidden throughout scripture. Why do you think the pagans try to fit their three gods into one Godhead?
Maybe we should combine our discussions in a new thread. We could call it, “Lighten up and all her nonsense”?
Just kidding. peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
What would you think if Jesus was called Jehovah Saves, or Jehovah our Righteous? Do you think that those names would fit Him?Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
KJV6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, “Jehovah OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
KJV“Y@hovah tsidqenuw” is the Hebrew term here.
You wrote:
Quote Who do you think Jesus refers to when he says God? I think He is referring to He and His Father.
Quote Fair enough if I speak as Mike who lives in 2010. But what if I speak as Moses or any other Israelite who lived during and after the exodus? As Moses, I only know Jehovah, the God and Father and Creator of us all. I know of no “Jehovah the Son”. So inspired or not, anytime I read the Law and the Prophets, I know for a fact that when it says YHWH, it means Jehovah God. And I know for a fact that He is ONE. THe OT oneness is made more clear in the NT when Jesus said that the Father and Him are one.
I worship them as united, not divided…don't worry so much.
Blessings,
KathiKathi,
And then what of Jesus saying that 'they' would be 'One' with Him as He is 'One' with His Father?Expand and expound that for me, please.
As a pointer…'One in Purpose' not 'One in Person'
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2010,03:55) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 29 2010,11:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2010,23:40) KJ……….JA, is right in this, GOD the FATHER is the Head over Jesus who is the Head over Us. Jesus plainly said the Father was Greater then He was. Come out of those false TRINITARIAN teachings, why should you remain in confusion when you don't have to? peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Gene,Here we go again. The Father was greater than Jesus when He was in the flesh. Jesus is not in the flesh now. At the right hand of the Father Jesus is God:
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”
2 The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion;
you will rule in the midst of your enemies.3 Your troops will be willing
on your day of battle.
Arrayed in holy majesty,
from the womb of the dawn
you will receive the dew of your youth. [a]4 The LORD has sworn
and will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”5 My Adonay (God) is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrathDavid acknowledged that the exalted Messiah was His “Adonay”, that is, His God. He said to Jehovah “My ADONAY is at your right hand.” The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God Gene.
Read it and weep Gene.
Kangaroo Jack
JackThomas understood what David did. He also called Jesus his Lord and his God.
Many say Jesus is “a god” but yet they do not call him their God like David and Thomas! Maybe they are smoking something?
WJ
Keith,Though I am addressing you I am instructing our opponents. The word “Adonay” ALWAYS refers to God. Strong's Concordance, the TWOT and Young's Analytical Concordance all agree that Adonay always refers to God.
Mikeboll once tried to explain this away by the fact that the word adonay is from adon which often refers to men. Thus Mike erroneously concludes that adonay also may refer to men. But this is not true at all!
The TWOT says this about Adonay:
“When adon appears in the special plural form, with a first common singular pronominal suffix (adonay), IT ALWAYS REFERS TO GOD“, TWOT p. 13 (all emphasis mine)
In Psalm 110:5 David CLEARLY said, “My Adonay (God) is at your right hand.
Therefore, the Messiah who was David's “adon” (master) according to verse 1 was also his “adonay” (God) according to verse 5.
So it is written.
Jack
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2010,06:57) Hi KJ,
You are an appointed teacher?
then why do you not teach the truth of the Word?
Nick,King David is the teacher. He said that Messiah was his “Adonay” (God).
Let the Messiah be your God too!
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 30 2010,07:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2010,06:57) Hi KJ,
You are an appointed teacher?
then why do you not teach the truth of the Word?
Nick,King David is the teacher. He said that Messiah was his “Adonay” (God).
Let the Messiah be your God too!
KJ
Just because Christ is called God does not make him deity. Many are called God in the OT that are not deity. It is the way in which Hebrews use their language. Anyone that acted as a God was called God. Check psalms 82. The Hebrews were called Gods by YHWH. Are they therefore Deity?Kangaroo wrote:[/quote]
Hi Roo,So many things wrong here…I don't know where to start.
First of all, Gene is right. Paul said the Father IS the head of Christ, not WAS the head of Christ. And he said this AFTER Christ had been raised. So your “only when he was in the flesh” arguement doesn't work here any more than it works in Acts 4 where it is made clear that Jesus is STILL a servant of God.
You said:
Quote Mikeboll once tried to explain this away by the fact that the word adonay is from adon which often refers to men. Thus Mike erroneously concludes that adonay also may refer to men. But this is not true at all! This is the info I gave you:
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
'Adonay TWOT – 27b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ad-o-noy' Noun MasculineDefinition
my lord, lord
of men
of God
Lord – title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverenceAnd this is where I got it:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/kjv/adonay.htmlFinally, the one at the right hand of another is not equal nor the same being.
ps Verse 5 actually has YHWH in the oldest, best MSS. It's one of the 134 places the scribes admitted to changing YHWH to Adonay. Verse 5 is about Jehovah being at the right hand of Jesus as his strength and power. Before you get all excited, this usage is different from Jesus sitting at the right hand of Jehovah. I've got info if you want it.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ May 28 2010,16:32) Hi Mike,
What would you think if Jesus was called Jehovah Saves, or Jehovah our Righteous? Do you think that those names would fit Him?Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
KJV6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, “Jehovah OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
KJV“Y@hovah tsidqenuw” is the Hebrew term here.
You wrote:
Quote
Who do you think Jesus refers to when he says God?I think He is referring to He and His Father.
Quote
Fair enough if I speak as Mike who lives in 2010. But what if I speak as Moses or any other Israelite who lived during and after the exodus? As Moses, I only know Jehovah, the God and Father and Creator of us all. I know of no “Jehovah the Son”. So inspired or not, anytime I read the Law and the Prophets, I know for a fact that when it says YHWH, it means Jehovah God. And I know for a fact that He is ONE.THe OT oneness is made more clear in the NT when Jesus said that the Father and Him are one.
I worship them as united, not divided…don't worry so much.
Blessings,
Kathi
Hi Kathi,You said:
Quote “Jehovah OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
KJV“Y@hovah tsidqenuw” is the Hebrew term here.
Yes. And it is translated “Jehovah is our righteousness.”
Do you know that many people in the Bible have “Jehovah” in their name? Are they all God? Take “Immanuel” for instance. It means “God is with us”. What if it was Moses who had that name? Would it mean “God is with us” or would it mean that Moses IS the God who is with us? Don't read more into it than what is there.You said:
Quote I think He is referring to He and His Father. How do you get that from, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God”?
You said:
Quote THe OT oneness is made more clear in the NT when Jesus said that the Father and Him are one. I worship them as united, not divided…don't worry so much.
You worship two as God, period. It doesn't matter what spin you put on it. Were are to worship and serve as God only One, not two.
And there are some followers of Jesus who may already be one with him and his God – do you worship them also because they are one with Jesus and God?
In the OT, there is only one God Almighty, right? Same in the NT. In the whole Bible, this is the One we are to worship – no other. Is the Son this Almighty God?
peace and love,
mikeMike……….That is the whole Problem with trinitarians they read into scriptures more then what is stated, to force the text to meet their dogmas, all the while ignoring other that clearly show there errors. They have so conditioned their minds to reject the truth and stick to their own conjectures they just can't see the truth at all. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
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