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hi all here
except TT and WJ
this debate as i see it, does not in any way, is useful,for the ones that are true Christians, it will leave some absinthe taste in you,
because the spirit of your debate is of man's glory,and the purpose of your opponents are to show that your wrong in your believe just as the devil tempted Jesus,but Jesus stay away of him.
and so try to promote there pagan believes to there kind of believers,who are you really serving???
Quote (thethinker @ April 10 2010,09:57) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,05:13) The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament says,
This word [elohim], which is generally viewed as the plural of eloah [Strong's #433], is found far more frequently in Scripture than either el or eloah for the true God. The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular. [4]
The New International Version Study Bible tells us,
“God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” [5]
Mercer Dictionary of the Bible states,
“The plural Elohim is used frequently, a phenomenon sometimes called the majestic plural. Although the form is plural the one referred to or who is speaking is singular.” [6]
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states,
“The Divine name (’Elohim) most frequently used in the Old Testament, a plural form of Eloah, which appears only in poetical books (34 of the 57 times in Job alone). The form Elohim, when used of the God of Israel, is a plural of majesty, signifying the one God who embodies in Himself all the qualities of divinity, and is almost always accompanied by singular verbs and adjectives.” [7]
HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary says,
“Elohim is one of the three common generic names for God in the OT, occuring almost 2600 times. The term is a plural, probably of El or Eloah, hebrew words for “god”, and on occassions means “gods” (e.g. Exod. 20:3). Most often it is a plural of majesty for israel’s “God” (e.g. , Gen. 1:1) and thus is translated in the singular.” [8]
Martian,I am well aware of these sources which promote the “plural of majesty” theory. Did you notice that the sources give no examples from the scripture where a human king spoke in such a manner? God accomadated Himself to the culture and the speech which the people used. So we must find an example where human kings used the so called “plural of majesty.”
We are not obliged to consider any theory that is without examples from scripture.
“Some have seen the solution of the difficulty to lie in calling this the majestic plural, such as sovereigns are wont to employ edicts. This type of plural, cannot be demonstrated as used in the scriptures….” Genesis, vol. 1, p. 86-87, H.C. Leupold D.D.
The majestic plural cannot be shown from the scriptures. Therefore, it is just a theory that cannot be proven.
Then there is the problem with Jehovah calling His Messenger “Jehovah your God.” I duplicate a post from earlier today:
In Exodus 3 the Messenger of Jehovah appeared to Moses in the burning bush and identified Himself as the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Then in verse 14 the Messenger says OF HIMSELF, “I am that I am.”
In Exodus 23:20-25 Jehovah said that He will send His Messenger to bring the people into the land that He has prepared for them. Then in verse 25 Jehovah Himself calls His Messenger by the name “Jehovah.” He said,
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Jehovah refers to His Messenger by the same name saying, “serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you.” Then He switches to the first person and says, “And I will take away your sickness.”Note these three points:
1. Jehovah said that His Messenger has His name. (vs. 21)
2. The people shall not serve false gods but shall serve Jehovah's Messenger (vs.24-25).
3. Note the first and third persons “HE will bless you” and, “I will heal you.” Then note that Jehovah the first person called the third person, “Jehovah your God.”
Jehovah is indeed a plural unity.
thinker
Elohim is translated “God” in the English bibles.
King David uses the word all through Psalms.A Hebrew plural such as Elohim has only two possibilities.
Either it is really a plural of Gods or it is a plural of majesty. There is no other possibility. The
Hebrew language allows no other possibility. There is nothing to indicate persons or co equal gods or any other of the non scriptural made up phrases used by Trinitarians to explain their theories.
Example –The word for multiple trees in Hebrew is identical to the description of one (singular) magnificent tree.
Like plural trees, Elohim is used to indicate multiple false Gods. So when David uses the term Elohim is he speaking of false multiple Gods or of one magnificent God.
O God(Elohim), restore us
And cause Your face to shine upon us, and we will be saved.
— Is David praying to multiple Gods or to one supreme God?—-
O God (Elohim) of hosts, turn again now, we beseech You;
Look down from heaven and see, and take care of this vine,
—Is David asking multiple Gods to take care of the vine or to one magnificent God—-
Sing for joy to God (Elohim) our strength;
—Is David asking us to sing to multiple Gods or to one majestic God?—-
Shout joyfully to the God of Jacob.
—Who do we shout joyfully to multiple Gods or one great God?—
For it is a statute for Israel,
An ordinance of the God(Elohim) of Jacob.
(these are only four examples of hundreds all through the OT)
The choice is yours. Do you except that Elohim is a plural of majesty or do you admit believing in multiple Gods. You have no other course that follows and agrees with Hebrew language.Martin…..i believe plural majesty of ONE GOD also. There are Seven Spirits (intellects) or attributes of that ONE GOD, These Spirits are GODs EYES or INTELLECTS and Jesus has these on him now connected with horns (POWERS). and with these he will establish his Kingdom on the earth when He returns. These seven Spirits is what the LORD YHWH, uses to bring about all his purposes in creation , they are the (US) referred to in Geneses, the LORD YHWH, sends forth his Spirits and creates everything that exists. IMO
Hope you are feeling better brother.
peace and love to you and your brother…………….gene
Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,09:44) Quote (thethinker @ April 10 2010,09:57) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,05:13) The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament says,
This word [elohim], which is generally viewed as the plural of eloah [Strong's #433], is found far more frequently in Scripture than either el or eloah for the true God. The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular. [4]
The New International Version Study Bible tells us,
“God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” [5]
Mercer Dictionary of the Bible states,
“The plural Elohim is used frequently, a phenomenon sometimes called the majestic plural. Although the form is plural the one referred to or who is speaking is singular.” [6]
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states,
“The Divine name (’Elohim) most frequently used in the Old Testament, a plural form of Eloah, which appears only in poetical books (34 of the 57 times in Job alone). The form Elohim, when used of the God of Israel, is a plural of majesty, signifying the one God who embodies in Himself all the qualities of divinity, and is almost always accompanied by singular verbs and adjectives.” [7]
HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary says,
“Elohim is one of the three common generic names for God in the OT, occuring almost 2600 times. The term is a plural, probably of El or Eloah, hebrew words for “god”, and on occassions means “gods” (e.g. Exod. 20:3). Most often it is a plural of majesty for israel’s “God” (e.g. , Gen. 1:1) and thus is translated in the singular.” [8]
Martian,I am well aware of these sources which promote the “plural of majesty” theory. Did you notice that the sources give no examples from the scripture where a human king spoke in such a manner? God accomadated Himself to the culture and the speech which the people used. So we must find an example where human kings used the so called “plural of majesty.”
We are not obliged to consider any theory that is without examples from scripture.
“Some have seen the solution of the difficulty to lie in calling this the majestic plural, such as sovereigns are wont to employ edicts. This type of plural, cannot be demonstrated as used in the scriptures….” Genesis, vol. 1, p. 86-87, H.C. Leupold D.D.
The majestic plural cannot be shown from the scriptures. Therefore, it is just a theory that cannot be proven.
Then there is the problem with Jehovah calling His Messenger “Jehovah your God.” I duplicate a post from earlier today:
In Exodus 3 the Messenger of Jehovah appeared to Moses in the burning bush and identified Himself as the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Then in verse 14 the Messenger says OF HIMSELF, “I am that I am.”
In Exodus 23:20-25 Jehovah said that He will send His Messenger to bring the people into the land that He has prepared for them. Then in verse 25 Jehovah Himself calls His Messenger by the name “Jehovah.” He said,
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Jehovah refers to His Messenger by the same name saying, “serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you.” Then He switches to the first person and says, “And I will take away your sickness.”Note these three points:
1. Jehovah said that His Messenger has His name. (vs. 21)
2. The people shall not serve false gods but shall serve Jehovah's Messenger (vs.24-25).
3. Note the first and third persons “HE will bless you” and, “I will heal you.” Then note that Jehovah the first person called the third person, “Jehovah your God.”
Jehovah is indeed a plural unity.
thinker
A Hebrew plural such as Elohim has only two possibilities.
Either it is really a plural of Gods or it is a plural of majesty. There is no other possibility. The
Hebrew language allows no other possibility.
martianSo you say with your bias, but you have no Biblical proof!
We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God as Jack has pointed out, and our Lord Jesus speaks of the Trinity, whether you see it that way or not!
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of “the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“: (All having the definite article) Matt 28:19
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,02:48) martian So you say with your bias, but you have no Biblical proof!
We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God as Jack has pointed out, and our Lord Jesus speaks of the Trinity, whether you see it that way or not!
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of “the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”: (All having the definite article) Matt 28:19
WJ
Hi WJ,Knowing how the Hebrew language works on this issue, do you have a third, alternative answer?
And what does Matt 28:19 have to do with the trinity? Does it say or even imply that all are co-eqaul members of a godhead?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,12:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,02:48) martian So you say with your bias, but you have no Biblical proof!
We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God as Jack has pointed out, and our Lord Jesus speaks of the Trinity, whether you see it that way or not!
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of “the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”: (All having the definite article) Matt 28:19
WJ
Hi WJ,Knowing how the Hebrew language works on this issue, do you have a third, alternative answer?
And what does Matt 28:19 have to do with the trinity? Does it say or even imply that all are co-eqaul members of a godhead?
mike
MikeThey all share the same name “singular”. Names in the Hebrew speaks of nature. There is nothing anywhere that implies in any way the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit do not share the exact same nature, or essence of Spirit!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,12:07)
And what does Matt 28:19 have to do with the trinity? Does it say or even imply that all are co-eqaul members of a godhead?mike
MikeFor one they all are spoken of with the definite article.
Two, Jesus definitely does not imply they are not co-equal!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,05:31) Two, Jesus definitely does not imply they are not co-equal!
Whoa!Which NT have you been reading? I can't even count the times or ways that Jesus refers to his subserviance to God.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,15:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,05:31) Two, Jesus definitely does not imply they are not co-equal!
Whoa!Which NT have you been reading? I can't even count the times or ways that Jesus refers to his subserviance to God.
mike
MikeYou are sticking your head in the sand again. Hello?
Verse 28 the verse right before verse 29 Jesus says he has “ALL” authority and power!
Jesus is not in the flesh as the servant Messiah any longer Mike, so the “My Father is greater than I” statement (at least your interpretation of it) was made while Jesus was in the flesh subject to do the Fathers will.
The Father has now turned it all over to Jesus Mike! When are you gonna get that?
So look at Matt 28:18-20 in its context and you will see that he is not impying inequality among the three at all!
WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 10 2010,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,11:49) Second, your rant proves nothing because it doesn't even say what you think it does.
Was it a rant? I don't think so. Unlike a lot of his detractors Thethinker's posts are well structured, focused and follow a logical line of reasoning. Very rarely do I see the core of his points addressed. Very rarely. That tells me that either he has the intellectual upper hand or that he is on the right side of truth or a combination of both.
Paul,
Thanks for the support my bro! I do get pretty frustrated because the core and essence of my posts are rarely addressed. For instance, Martian said that the Messenger merely has “the character of God in Him.” But Jehovah refers to His Messenger in the third person throughout the narrative and at the end identifies His Messenger as “Jehovah your God.”Note the distinction between the first and third persons throughout. First person in bold and third person in red bold:
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
The first and third persons are very clear in the passage. Jehovah told the people that He would send His Messenger to guide them to the place that He had prepared for them. Jehovah told the people not to provoke Him but to obey Him or He may not forgive their sins.
The first and third person distinction is maintained in verse 25.
“So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.”
It's clear! Jehovah said, “Serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you and I will heal you.”
All Martian could say to this was that the Messenger merely had “the character of God in Him.” But Jehovah Himself called His Messenger, “Jehovah your God.” The Messenger Himself when He manifested Himself to Moses in the burning bush said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
If the Messenger had “the character of God in Him” then He would not falsely claim that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” How can a liar have “the character of God in Him?”
This Messenger who led the people was Jesus Christ Himself. The Novum Testamentum which is based in the oldest Greek manuscripts we have to date identify the one who saved the people from Egypt as Jesus:
Jude 1:4-5: 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV (Critical text)
It was JESUS who led the people out of the land of Egypt to the place wthat Jehovah had prepared for them. It was JESUS who destroyed those who did not believe. Therefore, JESUS was the Messenger who Jehovah had sent and who was to be obeyed and served. Jehovah HIMSELF called His Messenger “JEHOVAH YOUR GOD.”
So Jehovah spoke it. So it is written. So men must obey!
OUR GOD IS INDEED A PLURAL UNITY!
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,02:48) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,09:44) Quote (thethinker @ April 10 2010,09:57) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,05:13) The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament says,
This word [elohim], which is generally viewed as the plural of eloah [Strong's #433], is found far more frequently in Scripture than either el or eloah for the true God. The plural ending is usually described as a plural of majesty and not intended as a true plural when used of God. This is seen in the fact that the noun elohim is consistently used with singular verb forms and with adjectives and pronouns in the singular. [4]
The New International Version Study Bible tells us,
“God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” [5]
Mercer Dictionary of the Bible states,
“The plural Elohim is used frequently, a phenomenon sometimes called the majestic plural. Although the form is plural the one referred to or who is speaking is singular.” [6]
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states,
“The Divine name (’Elohim) most frequently used in the Old Testament, a plural form of Eloah, which appears only in poetical books (34 of the 57 times in Job alone). The form Elohim, when used of the God of Israel, is a plural of majesty, signifying the one God who embodies in Himself all the qualities of divinity, and is almost always accompanied by singular verbs and adjectives.” [7]
HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary says,
“Elohim is one of the three common generic names for God in the OT, occuring almost 2600 times. The term is a plural, probably of El or Eloah, hebrew words for “god”, and on occassions means “gods” (e.g. Exod. 20:3). Most often it is a plural of majesty for israel’s “God” (e.g. , Gen. 1:1) and thus is translated in the singular.” [8]
Martian,I am well aware of these sources which promote the “plural of majesty” theory. Did you notice that the sources give no examples from the scripture where a human king spoke in such a manner? God accomadated Himself to the culture and the speech which the people used. So we must find an example where human kings used the so called “plural of majesty.”
We are not obliged to consider any theory that is without examples from scripture.
“Some have seen the solution of the difficulty to lie in calling this the majestic plural, such as sovereigns are wont to employ edicts. This type of plural, cannot be demonstrated as used in the scriptures….” Genesis, vol. 1, p. 86-87, H.C. Leupold D.D.
The majestic plural cannot be shown from the scriptures. Therefore, it is just a theory that cannot be proven.
Then there is the problem with Jehovah calling His Messenger “Jehovah your God.” I duplicate a post from earlier today:
In Exodus 3 the Messenger of Jehovah appeared to Moses in the burning bush and identified Himself as the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Then in verse 14 the Messenger says OF HIMSELF, “I am that I am.”
In Exodus 23:20-25 Jehovah said that He will send His Messenger to bring the people into the land that He has prepared for them. Then in verse 25 Jehovah Himself calls His Messenger by the name “Jehovah.” He said,
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Jehovah refers to His Messenger by the same name saying, “serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you.” Then He switches to the first person and says, “And I will take away your sickness.”Note these three points:
1. Jehovah said that His Messenger has His name. (vs. 21)
2. The people shall not serve false gods but shall serve Jehovah's Messenger (vs.24-25).
3. Note the first and third persons “HE will bless you” and, “I will heal you.” Then note that Jehovah the first person called the third person, “Jehovah your God.”
Jehovah is indeed a plural unity.
thinker
A Hebrew plural such as Elohim has only two possibilities.
Either it is really a plural of Gods or it is a plural of majesty. There is no other possibility. The
Hebrew language allows no other possibility.
martianSo you say with your bias, but you have no Biblical proof!
We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God as Jack has pointed out, and our Lord Jesus speaks of the Trinity, whether you see it that way or not!
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of “the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost“: (All having the definite article) Matt 28:19
WJ
There is only two alternatives for Elohim. If you do not want to accept a plural majesty then you must accept plural Gods.
You in so much as say it here –
“We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God”Elohim is plural. I have posted several examples of the plural nouns used in scripture. What other evidence do you need. Elohim is no different.
The truth is that the Hebrew Scriptures do often use the plural word Elohim (as well as some other plural nouns, such as *chayim*, literally plural, meaning “lives”, but used singularly: life; Genesis 27:46; Job 10:12) in singular settings, usually with the singular article or singular verbs, etc. This has been called the “plural intensive” — where the plural is used in a singular context to denote the superlative degree or superiority. It has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine.
We should note that Moses is also called elohim. (Exodus 4:16; 7:1) The scriptures concerning Moses indicate that elohim, although plural, is applied to the singular person, Moses (who is a type of Jesus — Deuteronomy 18:18,19; Acts 3:19-23). Moses is not more than one person, so why the plural usage here? It is plural used in a singular setting to denote the superlative (plural intensive), that is, to denote the supremacy of the power given to Moses by Yahweh over the power of Pharaoh and the gods of Pharaoh.We should also note that elohim in the plural means “gods” — not persons. Thus the argument that its plural usage means a trinity would tend to mean that there are three gods, not three persons.
Additionally, if elohim means more than one person in one godhead, then in Psalm 45:6,7 we would have one “godhead of persons” anointing another “godhead of persons”.
There was only one golden calf called Elohim. (Genesis 32:4) This provides another example of the usage of “elohim” as a plural intensive.
In Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title ‘elohim’ is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god.
“Elohim” can be used as either singular or plural! In the Hebrew OT it is most frequently used with singular verbs and/or pronouns. Scholars call this “plural intensive”. But don't be fooled by the word PLURAL. Plural intensive isn't really plural at all ! In Hebrew grammar, it is one of those “scholar's big words” which make things sound more complicated than they really are. In simpler layman's language, all it says is that Elohim looks plural but is being used in a way that actually means singular!
The common mistake made, especially by Trinitarian theologians, is to fail to distinguish between these TWO different uses of “Elohim” just described above. And THAT leads to all sorts of illogical conclusions! (Such as the Trinity, or Oneness, or Arianism)Although there is no direct equivalent for “plural intensive” in English, we could use “sheep” singular and “sheep” plural, to illustrate the important point that words in English can have identical spelling, but be either singular or plural in meaning. We have no way of knowing which is intended until we read the verb and/or pronoun which accompanies the word. Then we can tell at a glance. i.e.
If we say “the sheep IS in the field”, the SINGULAR verb tells us that there is only ONE!
But if we say “the sheep ARE in the field”, the PLURAL verb tells us that there is MORE than one.
For simplified practical layman's purposes, that is how it is with the great majority of appearances of ELOHIM in the Hebrew Old Testament.
Trinitarians claim that because the most common Hebrew name of God is “ELOHIM” — and because the word ends in “IM”, it must always be the PLURAL form of “ELOAH” — and it must therefore mean that God is more than one person! To “explain” this, they often resort to desperate and totally illogical examples.
One of these is water! They say it can be in the form of “water, steam, or ice”. Therefore Q.E.D. the Trinity! But how does that even begin to “explain” three co-existent, co-eternal, equally infinite, equally omniscient, and equally all powerful beings, in ONE single essence?
Another is “eggs” — “shell, yolk, and white”. Hey — you can separate an egg from its shell! And, like poor old Humpty Dumpty in the nursery rhyme, it often finishes up scrambled, uncooked, and never put back together! But — how does it help to make the Trinity even a remote possibility?
Even more illogical still is the absurdity which they call “compound unity”! (That's the one where the incredibly credulous are invited to scramble their brains with the mathematically preposterous 1+1+1=1!)
If you get too awkward about any of those, they simply retreat behind saying that it is “impossible to understand” — although of course they still insist that believing this illogical “mystery” is essential for salvation! Alas ….. that doesn't get even close to worshipping God with all our mind ….. does it?EXAMPLES OF SINGULAR USE
Translated With An Upper Case “G”:
Always about the ONE LORD of the Shema – THE ONE TRUE GOD who Jesus calls Father. (John 17:3)
Deut 6:4-5 – The Shema -“Hear O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.
That means – The LORD (YHWH) is ONE (Echad). Our God (elohim) is ONE (Echad). [Note – Echad is Hebrew for the number ONE. It means exactly what it says — ONE. It does not, and cannot ever mean that God is somehow mysteriously 1+1+1=1!]
This greatest commandment of all, is repeated by Jesus for disciples, in Matt 22:38.
Isa 45:21,22 – There is no God (elohim) else beside me; ….. for I am God, (elohim) and there is none else.
Translated With A Lower Case “g”:
About men
Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 – about Moses, speaking as God's representative to Aaron and Pharoah.
About idols – god, goddess
1Kings 11:33 – Referring to Ashtoreth the goddess (elohim-singular) of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god (elohim-singular) of the Moabites, and Milcom the god (elohim-singular) of the children of Ammon. ___
EXAMPLES OF PLURAL USE
Translated With A Lower case “g”
About Men –
Psalm 82:6 – The word translated as “gods”, is Elohim
About Angels
Psalm 8:3-4 – The word translated in the KJV as “angels”, is Elohim.
About human judges
Exodus 22:8,9 – The word translated in the KJV as “judges”, is Elohim – Referring to men appointed as God's human representatives to administer the laws of God
About Idols
Exodus 34:15,16; Deut 12:30; 1 Kings 11:2; – The word translated as “gods” is “elohim” – Referring to the idols of the nations surrounding Israel.Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,17:45) There is only two alternatives for Elohim. If you do not want to accept a plural majesty then you must accept plural Gods.
No we do not have to accept anything you say! You have no proof, we do!Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,17:45) You in so much as say it here –
“We do have evidence in the Hebrew scriptures of a plural God”
No I did not ad an “s” to God did I?Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,17:45) Elohim is plural. I have posted several examples of the plural nouns used in scripture. What other evidence do you need. Elohim is no different.
I am glad you see that 'elohiym is plural, now you just have to explain the examples in scriptures given where God refers to himself as “us”!Don't forget Jesus words!
WJ
Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,18:10) Even more illogical still is the absurdity which they call “compound unity”! (That's the one where the incredibly credulous are invited to scramble their brains with the mathematically preposterous 1+1+1=1!)
1+1+1=3 yet the number three is “One Number”!
More faliled logic! Debunked!
WJ
hi martian
how you feel dealing with WJ;
terrariccaGroup: Members
Posts: 2801
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: April 10 2010,12:56——————————————————————————–
this debate as i see it, does not in any way, is useful,for the ones that are true Christians, it will leave some absinthe taste in you,
because the spirit of your debate is of man's glory,and the purpose of your opponents are to show that your wrong in your believe just as the devil tempted Jesus,but Jesus stay away of him.
and so try to promote there pagan believes to there kind of believers,who are you really serving???
————–
PR
i am just a fishermanQuote (terraricca @ April 11 2010,16:56) hi martian how you feel dealing with WJ;
terrariccaGroup: Members
Posts: 2801
Joined: Oct. 2009 Posted: April 10 2010,12:56——————————————————————————–
this debate as i see it, does not in any way, is useful,for the ones that are true Christians, it will leave some absinthe taste in you,
because the spirit of your debate is of man's glory,and the purpose of your opponents are to show that your wrong in your believe just as the devil tempted Jesus,but Jesus stay away of him.
and so try to promote there pagan believes to there kind of believers,who are you really serving???
————–
PR
i am just a fisherman
Actually I usually laugh after the sessions on here. So silly are the arguments that they are beyond comprehension. When he stops being entertaining I will stop debating him.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 11 2010,10:55) Quote (martian @ April 10 2010,18:10) Even more illogical still is the absurdity which they call “compound unity”! (That's the one where the incredibly credulous are invited to scramble their brains with the mathematically preposterous 1+1+1=1!)
1+1+1=3 yet the number three is “One Number”! More faliled logic! Debunked!
WJ
Are you kidding me? You would actually make that absurd argument? I think others on here are right. You have really started losing it.
1+1+1 =3 not 1
One God +One God +One God= three Gods.
Any other argument is totally irrational.
What's next WJ are you going to use water as liquid, frozen and steam to prove the Trinity?
How about the egg as in shell yoke and white.
Always the mystery with you.Because of a greater ability to understand the languages of the Bible most modern theologians do not employ Elohim=multiple persons argument. Even Trinitarian theologians have abandoned that approach.
It makes me wonder if WJ got into some “Hot Tub Time Machine” and traveled back 150 years to an anna-baptist bible college to get his education. I do not know why he did not just complete the journey and come back in the robes and trappings of a druid priest of the dark ages.I can envision a conversation today between Yeshua and the false prophets of the Christian world:
“What think ye of Christ? Is he God?” The Theologians say unto him, “Yes Lord God.” 43 He saith unto them, “How then doth David in spirit clearly distinguish him from LORD God, saying, 44 YHWH (LORD) said unto my Adon (lord), Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then did not refer to him as God (or YHWH), how is he God (or YHWH)? 46 And no Trinitarian was able to answer him a word, neither durst any prophets of the Beast from that day forth ask him any more questions.”Martian,
I am disappointed in you because you dodged my last post on Exodus 23. I duplicate it again. Please reply specifically to it or be quiet:
Martian said that the Messenger merely has “the character of God in Him.” But Jehovah refers to His Messenger in the third person throughout the narrative and at the end identifies His Messenger as “Jehovah your God.”
Note the distinction between the first and third persons throughout. First person in bold and third person in red bold:
Quote 20 “Behold, I send My Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Messenger will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. 24 You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars. 25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
The first and third persons are very clear in the passage. Jehovah told the people that He would send His Messenger to guide them to the place that He had prepared for them. Jehovah told the people not to provoke Him but to obey Him or He may not forgive their sins.
The first and third person distinction is maintained in verse 25.
“So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.”
It's clear! Jehovah said, “Serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you and I will heal you.”
All Martian could say to this was that the Messenger merely had “the character of God in Him.” But Jehovah Himself called His Messenger, “Jehovah your God.” The Messenger Himself when He manifested Himself to Moses in the burning bush said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
If the Messenger had “the character of God in Him” then He would not falsely claim that He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” How can a liar have “the character of God in Him?”
This Messenger who led the people was Jesus Christ Himself. The Novum Testamentum which is based in the oldest Greek manuscripts we have to date identify the one who saved the people from Egypt as Jesus:
Jude 1:4-5: 4For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our ONLY Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that JESUS, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ESV (Critical text)
It was JESUS who led the people out of the land of Egypt to the place wthat Jehovah had prepared for them. It was JESUS who destroyed those who did not believe. Therefore, JESUS was the Messenger who Jehovah had sent and who was to be obeyed and served. Jehovah HIMSELF called His Messenger “JEHOVAH YOUR GOD.”
So Jehovah spoke it. So it is written. So men must obey!
OUR GOD IS INDEED A PLURAL UNITY!
thinker
Hi Thinker,
I wish you could go out of body as an unbiased person and read the way you butcher the Scriptures to prove a flawed man-made doctrine that isn't even mentioned in the Bible.
You said:
Quote “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.” It's clear! Jehovah said, “Serve Jehovah your God and HE will bless you and I will heal you.”
Thinker, when Jehovah refers to Himself in the third person, He uses the pronoun “he”. When in first person, the pronoun “I”. Sometime He switches from third to first in the middle of a sentence. While the wording does seem odd, He said something that is worded similarly before He ever started talking about sending a messenger. Look at Exodus 15:
Quote 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, who heals you.” Besides, your godhead is only one God, right? If God says “I”, it means God. If God says “he”, and it isn't referring to Himself in the third person, it means the “he” is referring to someone other than Himself, right? So your breakthrough proof breaks down like this:
25 “So you shall serve Jehovah your God, and HE (someone other than Jehovah your God) will bless your bread and your water.And I hope you're taking notice that even though “God” is plural, all the pronouns are singular. Not an “us” to be found.
peace and love,
mike
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