Dual Nature of Christ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 27 2006,20:52)

Exactly my point, why would God need another Saviour.

Well God is a Spirit and invisible and no one has ever seen him.

So it's not like he could just come to earth and say “Hi I am God, I have come here to save you.”

No, he sent his son (the image of the invisible God) and made him to be the mediator between God (himself) and man.

So God is the saviour and Jesus complied with God's will. Jesus even asked for the cup to be removed but then said “your will not mine”.

Ultimately God is the saviour. Even if I preach the gospel and reach my hand out to a sinner and lift him up to God's grace, it is still God who saves. I am only the vessel that he worked through.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So God was in Christ. God saved us through Christ.

This is the essence of the message.

This is the point.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Dec. 13 2006,02:58)

God is a Trinity..without one member of the Trinity you do not have God.

Above is an example of the words and wisdom of men.

Do not listen to them.

Let the Spirit of Truth be your guide and let scripture reproof, correct, admonish, and support you.

[david]

Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Jehovah is our saviour and saves us through his son. His son is of course also a saviour, in that it was his actions that saved us, but really, if we took Jehovah out of the equation, there would be no anything.

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shi′a‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

[Proclaimer]

Amen to that david.

[NickHassan]

topical

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

I already addressed Matthew 22:44-46 but that does not seem to be the root of our disagreement as you are stating Jesus is both a deity and a human being.   I will address that issue later but first I wish to point out that God promised David that one of his descendents would always sit on his throne and thus Jesus is really David’s descendant.  

Any Jew that had been properly trained in the law knew what being a son of God meant and that by divine nature it is meant the righteous nature and not the nature of being a deity.  They would automatically discount the later because scripture clearly states there is one God and that is not the Messiah.  As with the Jews it is with the Christians as well.

So Jesus does have two natures just like anyone else that has the Holy Spirit to live by as the Holy Spirit is the spirit of righteousness just like Romans 1:4 states.  Please note the similarity between Romans 1:4 and Romans 8:13-17.   Was not Romans 8:13 proven to be true by Jesus’ resurrection from the dead and thus that resurrection testified that he was led by the Spirit and therefore is the Son of God and heir of God?   Is it not through him that we to become sons by adoption and thus coheirs?

Are you arguing that Jesus is the ancestor of Jesse and backing it up by citing Isaiah 11:10?  An alternative translation is written in Romans 15:12 but Paul does not address the mystery you brought up.  Offhand the title “root of Jesse” seems vague so I will need to look into it before venturing any ideas.

It is true that no contradictions exist in scripture and that there are things that you we do not understand but a contradiction in scripture as regards the message of salvation is a red flag that we may well be in error and on the wrong path unless it can be resolved.  It is certainly a sign that you do not yet understand the message of salvation and therefore have more to learn.

Do you understand these proverbs?

Proverbs 14:6(NIV) reads:

Quote

The mocker seeks wisdom but finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.

And

Proverbs 4:5(NIV) reads:

Quote

Get wisdom, get understanding, do not forget my words or swerve from them.

And

Proverbs 2:2-5(NIV) reads:

Quote

Turning your ear to wisdom and your heart to understanding and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Note: I meant Preexistence not Predestination in subtitle. Sorry for the confusion.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,03:11)

Mike Boll, I already addressed Matthew 22:44-46 but that does not seem to be the root of our disagreement as you are stating Jesus is both a deity and a human being.   I will address that issue later but first I wish to point out that God promised David that one of his descendents would always sit on his throne and thus Jesus is really David’s descendant.   Any Jew that had been properly trained in the law knew what being a son of God meant and that by divine nature it is meant the righteous nature and not the nature of being a deity.  They would automatically discount the later because scripture clearly states there is one God and that is not the Messiah.  As with the Jews it is with the Christians as well. So Jesus does have two natures just like anyone else that has the Holy Spirit to live by as the Holy Spirit is the spirit of righteousness just like Romans 1:4 states.  Please note the similarity between Romans 1:4 and Romans 8:13-17.   Was not Romans 8:13 proven to be true by Jesus’ resurrection from the dead and thus that resurrection testified that he was led by the Spirit and therefore is the Son of God and heir of God?   Is it not through him that we to become sons by adoption and thus coheirs? Are you arguing that Jesus is the ancestor of Jesse and backing it up by citing Isaiah 11:10?  An alternative translation is written in Romans 15:12 but Paul does not address the mystery you brought up.  Offhand the title “root of Jesse” seems vague so I will need to look into it before venturing any ideas. It is true that no contradictions exist in scripture and that there are things that you we do not understand but a contradiction in scripture as regards the message of salvation is a red flag that we may well be in error and on the wrong path unless it can be resolved.  It is certainly a sign that you do not yet understand the message of salvation and therefore have more to learn. Do you understand these proverbs? Proverbs 14:6(NIV) reads: Quote The mocker seeks wisdom but finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning. And Proverbs 4:5(NIV) reads: Quote Get wisdom, get understanding, do not forget my words or swerve from them. And Proverbs 2:2-5(NIV) reads: Quote Turning your ear to wisdom and your heart to understanding and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Note: I meant Preexistence not Predestination in subtitle.  Sorry for the confusion.

Kerwin

i answer you as well because i also believe in preexistence of Christ;

so first you are a liar because you bring upon the ones who believe in preexistence what is not said and what we do not believe ;

you like to make others believe your lies;YOU SAY;;;;I already addressed Matthew 22:44-46 but that does not seem to be the root of our disagreement as you are stating Jesus is both a deity and a human being

WE NEVER SAID THAT CHRIST WAS NOT A MAN,WE SAID THAT HE PREEXISTED HIS COMING TO EARTH,AND THAT HE IS THE FIRST CREATION OF GOD AND THE SON OF GOD,AND AS SCRIPTURES SAYS ;Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

THOSE SCRIPTURES ARE BUT A FEW THERE ARE MUCH MORE,

it seems that you can not get rid of those false believe that men have put in your head,this is preventing you to see the truth of God in many other truths,you are not putting the son of God as he is really,

those scriptures i give you tells the truth of Gods spirit trough John and Paul,do not make liars out of them,you do not have the Holy spirit ,you just go with men s ideas,if not explain everyone of the scriptures about 40 who tells Christ preexistence one to one ,this is the third time i think i ask you this but you still did not answer that question.are your action or lack of it do not show your truth as not being truth of God that is.

So your words are merely opinions from men.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

You are rather confused in your words as you do say the Jesus is a spiritual being clothed in flesh that is decended from David.

That description is not a human being that is a Spiritual being animating a human body. They are two different kinds.

You also contradict this by stating Jesus has two natures. One that of being a deti and the other a human being. If that is correct then Jesus is more than just a animaty human body but a human bing that has become possesed by a Spiritual being.

I am attempting to iron out the confusion that exists in your words by getting you to ask God to lead you to the truth and then seek understanding and knock on the door of oppotunity find that understanding.

Calm down and allow God to show you the truth.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,04:06)

Pierre, You are rather confused in your words as you do say the Jesus is a spiritual being clothed in flesh that is decended from David. That description is not a human being that is a Spiritual being animating a human body.  They are two different kinds. You also contradict this by stating Jesus has two natures.  One that of being a deti and the other a human being.  If that is correct then Jesus is more than just a animaty human body but a human bing that has become possesed by a Spiritual being. I am attempting to iron out the confusion that exists in your words by getting you to ask God to lead you to the truth and then seek understanding and knock on the door of oppotunity find that understanding. Calm down and allow God to show you the truth.

Kerwin

you are trying to bring in your confused opinion and see if you can sell it;i do not buy it;

you are a soul ;right ;you are made of flesh and spirit ;right

were is the spirit come from? from God right ??because wen we die it s return to God ,right??

and now you saying God is not able to do just that you are blind;

Christ as received the flesh body trough his mother Marie,right ??

and the spirit from God ,right ??
THE FACT THAT HE PREEXISTED AS NO BARING ON THE MATTER,
did all the spirits not existed in a way before creation??because God is spirit,and he is the source of creation.is he not???whatever transformation took place is Gods will.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,04:06)

Pierre, You are rather confused in your words as you do say the Jesus is a spiritual being clothed in flesh that is decended from David. That description is not a human being that is a Spiritual being animating a human body.  They are two different kinds. You also contradict this by stating Jesus has two natures.  One that of being a deti and the other a human being.  If that is correct then Jesus is more than just a animaty human body but a human bing that has become possesed by a Spiritual being. I am attempting to iron out the confusion that exists in your words by getting you to ask God to lead you to the truth and then seek understanding and knock on the door of oppotunity find that understanding. Calm down and allow God to show you the truth.

kerwin

all can see how you avoid to answer the questions and put forth your man made opinions
Christ was not a deity he was a man,you still do not understand Gods word.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

I do not yet know for sure if the spirit that drives a person’s behavior is also the breath of life that causes a person to live. I do know that the breath of life and the soul are at times called spirit but the definitions differ. The breath of life may just be one aspect of the sprit that drives one. We do get a new spirit that drives us at baptism and yet we do not literally die and become resurrected at that time. This may be because we still retain the old spirit even though it was figuratively put to death at baptism.

Jesus gave up his spirit, life, on the cross but I am convinced he did not give up the Holy Spirit that drove him as it caused him to be resurrected according Romans 1:1-4. When the witch of Endor summoned the ghost of Samuel he seemed clearly to be driven by his spirit though he did not have the breath of life, being dead.

I can quote plenty of scriptures where the Spirit and Soul are treated as different parts of a person. The soul is regarded as the essential person in still other scripture as it is the soul that Jesus states cannot be killed by man who can kill the body, Matthew 10:28.

I agree that God created the soul of Jesus when he breathed life into his body as he began forming it in Mary’s womb. At that time Jesus became a living soul. I also agree that God’s breath existed before even Adam was created. I am not sure about the spirit that drives each human being though it seems to be inherited to some extent, perhaps like the body.

[Baker]

kerwin

Jesus never had two natures, and he doesn't now.
His true nature is spirit, he gave up his spirit nature to become man, when he did, he was all man, not both. At his resurrection, God gave him back his true nature, spirit; that is what he is now, only now he is a glorified, divine, spirit being.
We are human beings, flesh and blood, and always will be that, unless we should be so fortunate to be in the first resurrection. When God gives you his Holy Spirit, that does not give you another nature. with or without his Holy Spirit, you will always be of one nature.
Jesse was of the tribe of Judah, he is the root. David was the son of Jesse, Mary was from the same linage as was David, Jesus was born by Mary.
The invasion by the Babylonians in 606 BC, ended the kingship in Judah; the next king will be Jesus Christ.

Georg

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2010,20:11)

I will address that issue later but first I wish to point out that God promised David that one of his descendents would always sit on his throne and thus Jesus is really David’s descendant.

Hi Kerwin,

Sorry it took so long.  Yes, Jesus is David's descendent “according to the flesh”.  At least three times in the NT, they make a distinction by adding the words “according to the flesh”.  Why do you think they do that?  If Jesus's existence consisted of nothing but flesh, then why say “according to the flesh”?

You wouldn't say that about me, would you?  You wouldn't say, “Mike is a descendant of David (really!  my dad's name) ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”, would you?  Wouldn't one's first reaction to hearing those words be to ask what you meant by “according to the flesh”?

Think about it Kerwin.  It definitely ties into Matt 22 and what Jesus tried to teach the mistaken Pharisees who also thought the Messiah would be nothing BUT a son of David.

peace and love,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,08:16)

Pierre, I do not yet know for sure if the spirit that drives a person’s behavior is also the breath of life that causes a person to live.  I do know that the breath of life and the soul are at times called spirit but the definitions differ.  The breath of life may just be one aspect of the sprit that drives one.  We do get a new spirit that drives us at baptism and yet we do not literally die and become resurrected at that time.  This may be because we still retain the old spirit even though it was figuratively put to death at baptism. Jesus gave up his spirit, life, on the cross but I am convinced he did not give up the Holy Spirit that drove him as it caused him to be resurrected according Romans 1:1-4.  When the witch of Endor summoned the ghost of Samuel he seemed clearly to be driven by his spirit though he did not have the breath of life, being dead. I can quote plenty of scriptures where the Spirit and Soul are treated as different parts of a person.  The soul is regarded as the essential person in still other scripture as it is the soul that Jesus states cannot be killed by man who can kill the body, Matthew 10:28. I agree that God created the soul of Jesus when he breathed life into his body as he began forming it in Mary’s womb.  At that time Jesus became a living soul.  I also agree that God’s breath existed before even Adam was created.  I am not sure about the spirit that drives each human being though it seems to be inherited to some extent, perhaps like the body.

Kerwin

man is made with tree things;first the body,then to move that body who is working on oxy; and the blood who distribute the oxy;to the entire body, need s the breath of live,
with out it the body is dead;this i call the outer soul.

but God as given us our inner soul what will become what we really are,and who registers all we think we do ,and the reasons why we do it,
this is the part that return to God and is in wait for the judgement,the body and the breath of live have no bearing on nothing else than the physical body,and only men can kill it but men can not kill the inner soul that is truly you and that goes back to God who has given it to us at birth but as an clean board to be filled by us personally.as we grow.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Kerwin

Christ never ad two natures ,he only ad two jobs, and the second job was to come down to us ,but to do just that he ad to leave his high level position,and get some cheap clothing so he would look like one of us,
so he could no be one including the other ,it is either this one or the other but not both.

the qualities of Christ are the same in both position,just as we will be resurrected and we have become holy and complete in righteousness it will be still us that inner soul,but totaly overhaul but things ad to be learn it is not given .

God will not change our inner soul otherwise it will not be us,
the scriptures God has given us are driven to help us with the wisdom of God his map and plan for us ,show us the way,and send his son,to prepay our unpaid bills,and does not hold a Grinch against us for it,now this is true love..

Pierre

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

Georg believes scripture states that Jesus only had a human nature while on earth and a godly nature before and after. You say otherwise. Do you have scriptural support for your position.

I have limited time and will strive to get back to you on your own post as soon as I can.

[kerwin]

Pierre,

We are currently addressing the topics of soul, spirit, and breath of life on the thread of that same name. I hope to address your points there but my time is limited.

I asked Mike Boll for scriptural support for the two nature position in my last post to him. Hopefully he will be able to answer soon.

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…………..Jesus was not born with two natures no more then we are, He had the exact same nature as we all have in the flesh, He was not a son of GOD until he became a Son at the Jordan river, He was SON OF MAN the same in every way as we are, GOD the Father Perfected Him, He learned obedience to GOD as we all must also. We can become exact Sons of GOD as He (BECAME) by the (exact same process)> By having GOD Spirit added (INTO) Us that is the “seed” of God as John said FOR HIS SEED ABIDES (IN) YOU, AND AGAIN “KNOW YOU NOT THAT (NOW) WE ARE THE SONS OF GOD”. We (ALL) can attain to the measure and the fullness of the stature of Christ we are told. We are born with a Carnal Nature and when we recieve the Holy Spirit we recieve a New Nature of GOD the same way Jesus did, this new Nature transforms our thinking and we become Sons of the Living GOD at that Point, GOD said to Jesus “THOU ART MY SON (THIS DAY) I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU” what part of that people do not understand. If GOD said (THIS DAY) THAT DOES NOT MEAN ANOTHER DAY AT SOME PREEXISTING TIME PERIOD BEFORE THAT TOOK PLACE. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………………………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,08:16)

Pierre, I do not yet know for sure if the spirit that drives a person’s behavior is also the breath of life that causes a person to live.  I do know that the breath of life and the soul are at times called spirit but the definitions differ.  The breath of life may just be one aspect of the sprit that drives one.  We do get a new spirit that drives us at baptism and yet we do not literally die and become resurrected at that time.  This may be because we still retain the old spirit even though it was figuratively put to death at baptism. Jesus gave up his spirit, life, on the cross but I am convinced he did not give up the Holy Spirit that drove him as it caused him to be resurrected according Romans 1:1-4.  When the witch of Endor summoned the ghost of Samuel he seemed clearly to be driven by his spirit though he did not have the breath of life, being dead. I can quote plenty of scriptures where the Spirit and Soul are treated as different parts of a person.  The soul is regarded as the essential person in still other scripture as it is the soul that Jesus states cannot be killed by man who can kill the body, Matthew 10:28. I agree that God created the soul of Jesus when he breathed life into his body as he began forming it in Mary’s womb.  At that time Jesus became a living soul.  I also agree that God’s breath existed before even Adam was created.  I am not sure about the spirit that drives each human being though it seems to be inherited to some extent, perhaps like the body.

kerwin
you say;
I do not yet know for sure if the spirit that drives a person’s behavior is also the breath of life that causes a person to live.
——————————————–
the difference is the breath make you body function;the spirit make it work.or if you want put it in action.
THIS IS WHY SCRIPTURES SAYS YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR BODY CLEAN,AND YOUR SPIRIT CLEAN;
YOUR BODY CLEAN MEANS YOU DO NOT MAKE UNGODLY USE OF IT,
THE SPIRIT TO PREVENT UNGODLY USE OF THE BODY,WE HAVE TO CHANGE TO GODLY KNOWLEDGE SO TO PRACTICE WHAT IS GODLY,AND TO DO THAT THE REASON WOULD BE THAT WE BELIEVE IN GOD AND HAVE FAITH THAT SAVE US FROM DEAD.

THIS IS WHY WE GO INTO JUDGEMENT.

Pierre

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………..Notice WE. WE, We have to, We Must ,WE Do, WE Chose , We, we we or I, I , I. Seems God is not (really) in the Picture but the WE Must and I Must and the Self WILLED Must and The So called “FREE WILL” MUST. It appears Jesus died in vain, and who need GOD'S Help because it all up the WE'S and the I musts and the “FREE WILLS” of SELF>

Self Glorifying has no part with GOD or His Work (IN) His Childern or His work in the MAN Jesus, Who said “THE FATHER (IN) HE DOES THE WORKS” Jesus did not ever have the nature of GOD until he recieved it at the Jordan river after He was Baptized. With that new Nature He recieved He was able to put his captivated WILL to death and by the power of the Holy Spirit (IN) him chose GOD'S WILL over HIS WILL in all He did and Accomplished Just (EXACTLY) as we also can do with GODS Spiirt guiding our hearts and minds. It is all a matter of FAITH (IN) GOD The Father not the SELF or anyone Else no not even IN Jesus, because Jesus said He could do Nothing of Himself, and Also told us the GOD who is the ROCK was the one who would Build the Church.

“FOR you are save by GRACE and that (NOT) of or FROM YOURSELVES” it is a (GIFT) from God. Do not let egotistical self centered people move God out of the true Picture of you salvation> Jesus' old nature was conquered by His New Nature He recieved from GOD at the Gordan river , Just as Our old natures can be changes to a new nature by the (EXACT SAME PROCESS).

Paul said “tell me this he that does Miricales among you does he do it by (WORKS) of Law or by hearing of your FAITH”. Why don't these (egotist) tell us what miracles are being done among them. Answer (NONE) because they seek righteousness on their own terms by their falsely assumed “FREE WILLS” WillS that operate “FREE” alright “FREE” from GODS WILL, that is for sure. IMO

peace and love to all who seek GOD honestly and truthfully………………………………………..gene

[Author]

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