Doubt

Participant

Quote (Stu @ April 07 2008,06:07)

Nick:

Quote

Hi KJ,
The philosopher said
'Ecclesiastes 10:20
Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.

Quote

kejonn: And?

“And” so be careful not to curse the king or his rich friends from your bedroom for fear that a passing bird will tell tales. If a snake can speak pre-Babel, I would have thought birds should be expected to be articulate in Shakespearean english.

Stuart

Maybe the snake was given a new speech as well. Maybe all of God's creatures could speak some language that was recognizable to mankind pre-babel. Now, all the have is “hiss”, “chirp”, “bark”, “moo”, “baa” and “oo ee oo aa”.

April 7, 2008 at 11:58 am#86234

Participant

Which makes you think that the trip on the ark with animals that could speak would be a very trying time :laugh: .

April 7, 2008 at 5:23 pm#86242

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ April 07 2008,23:00)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,00:35)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,16:48)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27)

Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled.

I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?

No, Mandy:

God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.

I struggle with this idea that God knows how everything plays out and who will obey the evil in their hearts and who will serve him till the end.

I mean, you could be one that turns to the evil in your heart? Sure, you serve him now, but what about in five years time? Perhaps you will wonder from the path? God knows this even now as you praise him. Doesn't that make you feel a little uneasy. Like if he knows you will curse him eventually, can he even enjoy your praises today?

Mandy,

Sadly the majority fundamental Christian view is that we basically have no free will. Everything we do is determined already. I'd hate going through life knowing I really had no choice in things.

I agree with you, Kevin.

If I knew that one of my children would end up a child-molester, for instance, I would no longer take joy in the fact that this child enjoys playing with babies. You see my point. And it just goes on from there. I don't think God knows the end, because what about the flood? What about? Again, too many questions that stem from this type of dogma.

April 7, 2008 at 5:25 pm#86243

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,23:08)

Hi 94,
You said “And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.”

Tim

Yes! Yes! Exactly. Thanks for reminding me of these passages Tim.

Same goes for Judas, I believe. They really didn't have a choice because it was prophesied. Unless you believe as brother 94 does and that is everything is already known. My question then would be….what good is prophesy?

April 7, 2008 at 6:30 pm#86261

Participant

Hi Stu,
It is too easy, even facile to mock the Word of God,
but it shows little maturity or wisdom.

April 7, 2008 at 6:36 pm#86265

TimothyVI

Participant

Since stu hasn't even posted on this thread I am not certain to
whom you are speaking, but I guess it is me.

Tim

April 7, 2008 at 6:40 pm#86267

Participant

Hi Tim4,
No not you.
The mockers.

April 7, 2008 at 6:44 pm#86270

TimothyVI

Participant

Thank you Nick.

Tim

April 7, 2008 at 9:23 pm#86288

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 07 2008,13:40)

Hi Tim4,
No not you.
The mockers.

I'm sure you include me in that group.

Here's the thing Nick: if you can show us differently, why don't you? Your answer is always “don't question”. That answer is fine for those who want to accept illogical concepts and brutal tales, but the rest of us were unfortunate to have been given the ability to reason. I guess knew we'd have that ability though, right?

April 7, 2008 at 9:27 pm#86291

Participant

Hi KJ,
If Jesus did not judge scripture and the God Who wrote it through men
why should we who follow him do so?

April 7, 2008 at 10:31 pm#86299

Participant

As I said “don't question”. Many a cultic leader has lead his followers to doom because they did not question.

Don't drink the kool-aid Nick.

April 7, 2008 at 11:11 pm#86307

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,17:35)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,16:48)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27)

Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled.

I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?

No, Mandy:

God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.

I struggle with this idea that God knows how everything plays out and who will obey the evil in their hearts and who will serve him till the end.

Hi Mandy:

God does know every thing from the beginning to the end. An example, of this is the incident where the Lord told the Apostle Peter that he would deny him when Peter insisted that he would never do this, but as with Peter, I know that the Lord is merciful.

There is no evil in my heart to obey. That doesn't mean that I cannot be tempted and yeild to an evil temptation, but if I do fall, I know I will be forgiven when I repent, and I will repent if that happens.

And so, no, I am not uneasy of what the future brings. I love God and my Lord and I appreciate what he has done for me, and I serve Him because I love Him. I will always love him. This love for Him is not something that is temporary.

God's purpose is not to condemn me but to save me from the consequence of sin.

Perfect Love casts out all fear. I walk in perfect liberty because I know God loves me and I love Him.

April 7, 2008 at 11:58 pm#86311

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,23:08)

Hi 94,
You said “And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.”

Tim

Hi Tim:

God's ultimate purpose through the plagues was to deliver the Children of Israel out of bondage to Pharaoh. If I am understanding all of this correctly, Pharaoh's hardened heart (stubborness), allowed God to show his power through the plagues so that the people of the nation of Israel would know that it was God who had come to deliver them out of bondage, and to bring judgment upon the Pharaoh and his armies and upon the first born of Egypt. (This is symbolic. The first born of Egypt are those who have not been born again. God says that Israel is His firstborn. The death angel passed over them because of the blood of the lamb on the door posts of their house.)

God's purpose:

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ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, רָאֹה רָאִיתִי אֶת-עֳנִי עַמִּי אֲשֶׁר בְּמִצְרָיִם; וְאֶת-צַעֲקָתָם שָׁמַעְתִּי מִפְּנֵי נֹגְשָׂיו, כִּי יָדַעְתִּי אֶת-מַכְאֹבָיו. 7 And the LORD said: 'I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their pains;
ח וָאֵרֵד לְהַצִּילוֹ מִיַּד מִצְרַיִם, וּלְהַעֲלֹתוֹ מִן-הָאָרֶץ הַהִוא, אֶל-אֶרֶץ טוֹבָה וּרְחָבָה, אֶל-אֶרֶץ זָבַת חָלָב וּדְבָשׁ–אֶל-מְקוֹם הַכְּנַעֲנִי, וְהַחִתִּי, וְהָאֱמֹרִי וְהַפְּרִזִּי, וְהַחִוִּי וְהַיְבוּסִי. 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
ט וְעַתָּה, הִנֵּה צַעֲקַת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל בָּאָה אֵלָי; וְגַם-רָאִיתִי, אֶת-הַלַּחַץ, אֲשֶׁר מִצְרַיִם, לֹחֲצִים אֹתָם. 9 And now, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto Me; moreover I have seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them
[/QUOTEט וַאֲ]

יט וַאֲנִי יָדַעְתִּי–כִּי לֹא-יִתֵּן אֶתְכֶם מֶלֶךְ מִצְרַיִם, לַהֲלֹךְ: וְלֹא, בְּיָד חֲזָקָה. 19 And I know that the king of Egypt will not give you leave to go, except by a mighty hand.
כ וְשָׁלַחְתִּי אֶת-יָדִי, וְהִכֵּיתִי אֶת-מִצְרַיִם, בְּכֹל נִפְלְאֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּקִרְבּוֹ; וְאַחֲרֵי-כֵן, יְשַׁלַּח אֶתְכֶם. 20 And I will put forth My hand, and smite Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in the midst thereof. And after that he will let you go.

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כב וְאָמַרְתָּ, אֶל-פַּרְעֹה: כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, בְּנִי בְכֹרִי יִשְׂרָאֵל. 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh: Thus saith the LORD: Israel is My son, My first-born.
כג וָאֹמַר אֵלֶיךָ, שַׁלַּח אֶת-בְּנִי וְיַעַבְדֵנִי, וַתְּמָאֵן, ל&
#1456;שַׁלְּחוֹ–הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי הֹרֵג, אֶת-בִּנְךָ בְּכֹרֶךָ. 23 And I have said unto thee: Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and thou hast refused to let him go. Behold, I will slay thy son, thy first-born.'–

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לא וַיַּאֲמֵן, הָעָם; וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ כִּי-פָקַד יְהוָה אֶת-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְכִי רָאָה אֶת-עָנְיָם, וַיִּקְּדוּ, וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ. 31 And the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD had remembered the children of Israel, and that He had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.

If I am understanding correctly, Pharaoh refused to let the people of Israel go prior to “God's hardening his heart”.

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ב וַיֹּאמֶר פַּרְעֹה–מִי יְהוָה אֲשֶׁר אֶשְׁמַע בְּקֹלוֹ, לְשַׁלַּח אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל: לֹא יָדַעְתִּי אֶת-יְהוָה, וְגַם אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל לֹא אֲשַׁלֵּחַ. 2 And Pharaoh said: 'Who is the LORD, that I should hearken unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, and moreover I will not let Israel go.

Also, sometimes the scriptures state that Pharaoh hardened his heart, and then some scriptures say that God hardened his heart.

But the ulitimate point is that there is no unrighteousness with God. He did what he did so that the people of the Nation of Israel would know that He had come to deliver them out of bondage, and also to bring judgment upon those who had oppressed them.

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Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

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Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

April 8, 2008 at 12:04 am#86312

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ April 07 2008,22:57)

Quote (942767 @ April 06 2008,23:39)

Quote (kejonn @ April 07 2008,14:56)

Quote (942767 @ April 06 2008,18:57)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,11:23)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06)

Hi KJ:

You say:

Quote

How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death.

They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.

But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?

TIm

Hi Tim:

The true statement would be that Jesus did what God wanted him to do, and in that he obeyed God even unto death on the cross in spite of what men could do to him. He overcame sin and death learning obedience by the things that he suffered.

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Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Thus, he has experiental knowledge in how to live in right standing with God, and therefore, he can say,

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Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

To say that men did what God wanted them to do is to make God an accomplice to their evil deeds. Men did it for evil, but God allowed it for the good of all of humanity.

God Bless

Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

'Nuff said.

Hi KJ:

Again, you are jumping to conclusions without understanding every thing that has been said by God about Pharaoh.

God's people were in bondage to Pharaoh who did them much evil.

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Exd 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exd 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, [and] my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.

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7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, THAT I MAY LAY MY HAND UPON EGYPT, AND BRING FORTH MINE ARMIES, [and] MY PEOPLE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT BY GREAT JUDGMENTS.

I understand the symbolism of what is going on, it just reminds me of a bad kung-fu movie. Ya know, the one's where the premise is all about revenge?

Hi KJ:

It is not about revenge. It is about judgment against those who persist in evil. Should God allow evil to go unpunished?

April 8, 2008 at 1:02 am#86316

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 08 2008,05:25)

Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,23:08)

Hi 94,
You said “And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.”

Tim

Yes! Yes! Exactly. Thanks for reminding me of these passages Tim.

Hi Mandy:

Quote

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] none like me,

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

The prophesies serve to give us hope to continue to trust in God's Word knowing that His promises are true in spite of our circumstances. He has given me some personal prophecy that my Son would be saved, and so, although he is not serving God at the present, I know that what God has said to me will come to pass.

Through the scriptures he has shown us the end result.

April 8, 2008 at 3:41 am#86329

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,11:11)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,17:35)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,16:48)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27)

Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled.

I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?

No, Mandy:

God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.

I struggle with this idea that God knows how everything plays out and who will obey the evil in their hearts and who will serve him till the end.

Hi Mandy:

God's purpose is not to condemn me but to save me from the consequence of sin.

Perfect Love casts out all fear. I walk in perfect liberty because I know God loves me and I love Him.

Thanks, 94, however we do not know that God perhaps allowed Peter to deny Jesus so that it was a “sign” to him. To help him realize his vulnerability. Just as God allowed Satan to enter Judas and Pharoah's heart to be hardened.

No evil in your heart to obey? I'm confused. All men have fallen short and no man is without sin. Some sin is even considered “wicked”. Have you bypassed these sins? Lying is even considered as loathsome to God as those who did what they did in Sodom. I'm sorry, it's just hard for me to buy that you are completely sure that you will not turn on God. After all, Peter said he loved the Lord and that he would feed his sheep! Jesus even asked him 3 times and he said he loved him – he said he would die for him! Now, Peter was sure man. Anyway, my sister loved God and served him all her young and teen life, then she fell into the use of heroin and ended up killing herself in 2004 – not after she committed terrible, terrible crimes and those against God as well. Where does she rest? What is her outcome? Did God know that that would be her end when she was leading youth group? I really can't buy that, I'm sorry.

April 8, 2008 at 3:44 am#86331

Participant

Hi not3
2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

April 8, 2008 at 4:11 am#86345

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 08 2008,15:41)

Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,11:11)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,17:35)

Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,16:48)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27)

Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled.

I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?

No, Mandy:

God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.

I struggle with this idea that God knows how everything plays out and who will obey the evil in their hearts and who will serve him till the end.

Hi Mandy:

God's purpose is not to condemn me but to save me from the consequence of sin.

Perfect Love casts out all fear. I walk in perfect liberty because I know God loves me and I love Him.

Hi Mandy:

I did not say that I have not sinned. My sins have been forgiven and washed away by the blood of my Lord Jesus. I as a born again Christian do not practice sin intentionally. I may make a mistake which is still sin, but I do not have evil in my heart to obey.

I really wish that I could comfort you regarding your sister, but I cannot.

You also cannot do anything regarding her now, but what you have to decide is whether or not you want to obey God.

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Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

April 8, 2008 at 4:20 am#86351