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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2008,21:48) Hi Stu,
The old self doubt sucker punch eh?
Are you jealous of those who have faith ?
Why would you do this sort of negative evangelising?
What evangelising? What “old self doubt sucker punch eh”?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2008,21:50) Hi Stu,
Take off your religious glasses.
Your own origins confuse your view.
More dogma. No explanation, just libel.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2008,21:52) Hi Stu,
Poor diddums.
You never mean any harm do you?
I don't preach from a book that commands death for non-believers, adulterers, gays and ark-catchers.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2008,22:01) Hi Stu,
Our God is merciful
to the merciful.
But you on the other hand want to stone people.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2008,21:45) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,14:39) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2008,20:46) Hi Kj,
Indeed he met him on the way to Damascus.
By their fruit you will know them and few have shown equal quality fruit
That was no answer. What fruit did Paul bear?
Hi KJ,gentleness.
I see nothing particularly gentle in Paul's writings.Quote wisdom.
Perhaps, but he was sexist.Quote patience.
He was in prison, not like he was going anywhere.Quote longsuffering.
Don't we all suffer now and again?Quote love.
Define “love”.Quote joy.
Did you read the same letters I did?Quote goodness
He said he was the chief of sinners.Quote and more
What?Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,21:52) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,14:41) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,20:52) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,13:27) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,20:03) Did Jesus have an evil grin on his face as he suffered all that he did in our behalf? I am striving to walk in his footsteps, and like him I expect to suffer persecution as I strive to obey God, but nevertheless, how can I deny the truth? And, I can only share the truth as I know it whether or not you believe me.
Hmmm, are you expecting to die a martyr's death?
Maybe and maybe not. I may be still alive when Jesus comes for the church. If I die, God has not revealed to me how I will die, but I am not afraid to die the death of a martyr. If I someone would threaten to kill me because I am proclaiming the gospel, then I would have to say go ahead an kill me. How can I deny the truth.
How do you know it is the truth? How do you know that Koran is not the real truth?Quote Similarly, the church has been teaching the doctrine “trinity” and they expect me to sign a form indicating that I agree with their doctrines in order to become a member. I cannot do this either otherwise I would be lying.
Membership is just another means to control people.
Hi KJ:I know that the gospel is the truth, by virtue that the Spirit of God dwells within me testifying that it is the truth. Also, I have had many personal experiences in addition to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit which leaves no doubt. Also, I know because God answers my prayers.
What if a Muslim says the very same thing (except doesn't use the word gospel). Would you believe him and then accept the Koran as valid?Check this out: Benefits of Becoming a Muslim
Quote Yes, membership is a way of controlling people. God did not intend for there to be all of these various denominations.
Regardless of this, there are. Why is this? Could it be that the bible is a very unclear document and is not readily applicable to life beyond the 1st century? See my first tagline.Quote (kejonn @ April 13 2008,22:01) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2008,18:34) Quote (942767 @ April 13 2008,11:27) Quote (Cato @ April 13 2008,11:03) 1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'So God rendered judgement on the wicked Children, Infants and animals?
Hi Cato:Children are the responsibility of their parents. If the parents are wicked, their children will not be spared either.
So glad that rule doesn't apply now……think of all the children who would be wiped out. Ridiculous, if you really think about it.
In today's society, if parents are truly “wicked”, the children are taken away from them, not thrown in prison with their parents. Sadly, they may end up in foster care with a less than promising future, but they are not put in jail. At least they are given some chance to make a better life.Not so in the OT. Yahweh either kills the children or has the Israelites kill them.
When a man falls away from the given grace of God he becomes as a man seven times worse than his first state.I have witnessed this first hand with a person who is now dead.
He had strong faith in Yahweh, but chose sin and eventually disbelief, even after seeing heavenly things.
I honestly do not know if he is saved or not. I would like to think he is, but that depends on things that I do not know.
Anyway, it is better to have never known the way than to know it and then turn away. It is even worse to speak badly about God after knowing him.
Or maybe you never actually knew him Kejonn?
From what I can tell, you once knew him and now speak badly of him or you never knew him to begin with.
Either choice is not a good one is it?
Quote (t8 @ April 15 2008,05:35) Quote (kejonn @ April 13 2008,22:01) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2008,18:34) Quote (942767 @ April 13 2008,11:27) Quote (Cato @ April 13 2008,11:03) 1 Samuel 15:3
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'So God rendered judgement on the wicked Children, Infants and animals?
Hi Cato:Children are the responsibility of their parents. If the parents are wicked, their children will not be spared either.
So glad that rule doesn't apply now……think of all the children who would be wiped out. Ridiculous, if you really think about it.
In today's society, if parents are truly “wicked”, the children are taken away from them, not thrown in prison with their parents. Sadly, they may end up in foster care with a less than promising future, but they are not put in jail. At least they are given some chance to make a better life.Not so in the OT. Yahweh either kills the children or has the Israelites kill them.
When a man falls away from the given grace of God he becomes as a man seven times worse than his first state.I have witnessed this first hand with a person who is now dead.
He had strong faith in Yahweh, but chose sin and eventually disbelief, even after seeing heavenly things.
What “sin” did he choose? What “heavenly things” did he see?Quote I honestly do not know if he is saved or not. I would like to think he is, but that depends on things that I do not know. Anyway, it is better to have never known the way than to know it and then turn away. It is even worse to speak badly about God after knowing him.
You are guilty of what Nick and some others are: I do not speak badly about God, I speak poorly of a book written about Him. MAJOR difference.Quote Or maybe you never actually knew him Kejonn?
I thought you above this usual Christian approach. It always comes down to the “he was never a Christian anyways” line.Quote From what I can tell, you once knew him and now speak badly of him or you never knew him to begin with. Either choice is not a good one is it?
I know God. I don't know Yahweh.Quote (t8 @ April 15 2008,05:35) From what I can tell, you once knew him (Yahweh) and now speak badly of him or you never knew him to begin with.
Upon reflection, I will agree with this. I didn't really know Yahweh until I studied more of the OT.Quote (t8 @ April 15 2008,22:35) It is even worse to speak badly about God after knowing him.
Once you have read of god's brutality, is it then acceptable to speak up for justice against the tyrant?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 15 2008,06:41) Quote (t8 @ April 15 2008,22:35) It is even worse to speak badly about God after knowing him.
Once you have read of god's brutality, is it then acceptable to speak up for justice against the tyrant?Stuart
“An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.”Quote (942767 @ April 15 2008,10:25) Quote (Cato @ April 15 2008,02:55) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,12:30) No, Cato: Sin is not inherited. Sin is the transgression of God eternal law. The Children of parents who are not in a relationship with God are unclean because of the sin of their parents. If one of the parents is saved, then that parent will teach his children the Word of God.
Ok sin is not inherited, but if I have bad parents I am unclean because of their sins? So what is the difference?
Hi Cato:If a child of the bad parents should die as a child before that child can exercise a decision whether of not to believe the gospel, the child will die physically.
But if the parents die in their sins, they will both physically and spiritually. Their body and their soul will be destroyed.
942767,
I'm afraid I don't understand your answer.You say if a child of bad parentage (who is therefore, unclean) dies, he dies only physically (like any other child I take it so what difference did it make).
Their parents however will die both physically and spiritually.
So what is the consequence of this inherited uncleanliness of the child? How is he different from other children?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 15 2008,06:46) Quote (Cato @ April 15 2008,03:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2008,18:31) Hi cato,
Mankind is imbued with sin inherited from Adam, the first human servant of Satan.
According to the myth Adam was deceived and made a mistake, how do you then extrapolate that this made him a servant of Satan? I can see how you can infer that his mistake led to sin, but I think you are pushing it with the servant of Satan bit or I am taking issue with just a literary device for flair.
Hi cato,
The Bible is not a book of myths.
The favourite myth here is that men can find their own way by reason.
1 Timothy 1:4
nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.2 Timothy 4:4
and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.Titus 1:14
not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
Nick,I have to agree with KJ in that your quotes from Timothy seem to support my belief that much of Genesis is myth rather then anything else, strange choices indeed.
Secondly, as is your want, you never answered my question as to why you assert Adam was a servant of Satan? He evidently made a mistake, but to leap to the idea he was a servant of Satan seems a strech, could you explain your reasoning or was it as I suspect a statement made for dramatic effect rather then an actual belief.
Quote (kejonn @ April 16 2008,00:02) “An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.”
This quote speaks to me this morning. It speaks to my current situation and state of mind.The other night sister Irene asked me if I would have ever started doubting if it wasn't for Tow? I have given this much thought. In fact, last night I spent some time researching the logs and pin-pointed the exact moment when I began to doubt. As irony would have it, it was when I was preaching against doubt, and against the message that Tow was bringing.
But as the quote above eludes, once you have been shown the error of your thinking a light comes on. And from that moment on you cannot deny it. Because it is there everytime you try to return to the comforting zone of the error you once believed. I know, I've tried and tried.
So the answer to your question Irene, is no. No I wouldn't have began doubting if it wasn't for Tow. But once I began to listen to what he was saying and compared it to scripture, and then compared it against the arguments (read: excuses) that other's were combating him with, I decided that he was right. This was very painful for me. I cannot even begin to tell you all what I have been through as I have wrestled with certain knowledge.
You can certainly deny some knowledge and evidence and just “have faith”. I tried that, too. But my desire to know him, pressed me in further to really want the truth. While I haven't exactly found the elusive truth, I have found the errors (and don't ask me to list them – that is your homework).
I think the plan is flawed. If God intended to be defined and intended a book to be written about him and his “rules”, then I would expect this word to be like him – perfect. After all, whenever you give your children rules and expect them to follow them for their safety – you are not vague. You certainly do not leave those rules open for interpretation! No, you just don't do that. That is bad parenting.
So, I have concluded that the bible is not THE word of God. It may contain, under inspiration, words about him but it is not directly from God. Therefore it is a book that should be taken under consideration, but not followed to save your life.
Jesus may be the Messiah, and he may not be. The book is too vague to determine, and interpretations too loose to demonstrate blind faith.
I don't think we are supposed to know for sure. I think we are supposed to enjoy the life God has given us. We are to enjoy one another. We are to take care of the earth – our home – and our famlies. We are to worship God, as we understand him. When it's over, it's over. All the holy books may be laid open and we'll see what the “truth” was/is.
Children of all nations have a name for father. Perhaps, all religions do also? Some call God Allah, some call him Jehovah, some call him El, some call him the Sky or Sun. But perhaps he is the same God and this is my belief regardless of what one flawed book says about him. Other books speak of him as well. All books want to bind you to fear – the glue that keeps you stuck.
I'm un-stuck. I'm not lost. I'm grateful to Tow and other's who have helped me to see that no matter how much you deny the elephant that is standing in the middle of the room – you still have to move around him to get by him. I'm embracing the elephant!
Love to all and thanks for caring about me,
MandyMandy! First you told me ” I am loosing Faith” Then you denied that Jesus is the Messiah. Now you are denying the Bible? What are you going to deny next? There is not much left is there, Mandy. I tell you what is next, you will deny God as the Father of us all. Even tho the Bible has many errors, I am not denying that, but it is the Bible were I learned that the trinity is wrong. The Bible is full of Ancient History, my Husband has many articles on it. Rather then listen to how wrong the Bible is, maybe you should have read up on prophecy, it proves what has happened and of course what will happen again. It proves that the Bible is right. You also cant read the Bible like a Book. Take precepts upon precepts, here a little and there a little, that is what is says to do. Your logic on that the O.T. should agree with the New is therefore bull. If it would not have been for the Bible I would be still doing the Abomination of Desolation. Meaning to sacrifice up the body of Christ on a daily basis. The Mass. I would not have known Jesus on a personal basis, rather then just in the word of God. About fear, that is not what a Christian is to do, if that what you thought that the Bible was teaching you. The greatest Commandments of all is to Love God with all of your Heart and your neighbor as thyself. Fear is what man puts into it. Man has denied God from the very beginning so what you doing is nothing new.
You will learn it all in the millenium when nothing but the truth will be thought. The truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea. Jesus died for all of us and all have fallen short of the glory of God, and deserve dead because we all have sinned. But we all have a Savior who came down from Heaven became a man and died for us, so we can have eternal life. It is a free gift of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Not by our works so none can boast. All that I found in the Bible. I would have not known any of this, if the Bible was not around. The other Books that you are talking about is nothing concerning God. When you read in the Old Testament that is why God destroyed mankind once before, because there were so many other so called religions around. So many other Gods. But there is only one True God, the God of the Universe, that we worship, and His Son Jesus Christ our King. Believing in this has set me free. I am not afraid to die, I know were I am going to be. Just getting there is kind of scary to me, since I hate pain.
So my friend Mandy I wish you well, with all my Love Irene
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