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The brilliant irony of the first post in that thread is that it is designed to inspire doubt about the value of critical thinking. Should we doubt its value?
Stuart
In Boy Scouts, Nick wrote:
Quote The merchants of doubt seducing the unstable are well shown in scripture.
2 Peter 2
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
..and paedophilia, daylight robbery, extortion, oppression……or is that the Catholic church?
I know you have lost once you start comparing things to Nazi Germany, but the little bitter German chap with the silly moustache could have been paraphrasing 2 Peter when he wrote Mein Kampf.
Stuart
In the “FAITH” thread, Samuel said:
Quote We should put FAITH in GOD to open our eyes to HIS TRUTH. Not some mans truth. Man was wrong 2000 some odd years ago when Jesus was on the earth…
Things have only gotten worse, no one wants to listen to the truth. They shun the truth from them. And, “Justify” things that they want to do.
Pleasures of the flesh.
How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. Isn't his death, burial, and resurrection the hope you cling to?
I'd like for you to show me how things are worse considering the various world wars, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, etc.
Hi KJ:
You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?TIm
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,11:23) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?TIm
Hi Tim:The true statement would be that Jesus did what God wanted him to do, and in that he obeyed God even unto death on the cross in spite of what men could do to him. He overcame sin and death learning obedience by the things that he suffered.
Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Thus, he has experiental knowledge in how to live in right standing with God, and therefore, he can say,
Quote Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. To say that men did what God wanted them to do is to make God an accomplice to their evil deeds. Men did it for evil, but God allowed it for the good of all of humanity.
God Bless
Quote (942767 @ April 06 2008,18:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,11:23) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?TIm
Hi Tim:The true statement would be that Jesus did what God wanted him to do, and in that he obeyed God even unto death on the cross in spite of what men could do to him. He overcame sin and death learning obedience by the things that he suffered.
Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Thus, he has experiental knowledge in how to live in right standing with God, and therefore, he can say,
Quote Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. To say that men did what God wanted them to do is to make God an accomplice to their evil deeds. Men did it for evil, but God allowed it for the good of all of humanity.
God Bless
Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'Nuff said.
Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled.
I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?
Hi KJ,
The philosopher said
'Ecclesiastes 10:20
Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.Quote (kejonn @ April 07 2008,14:56) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2008,18:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,11:23) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?TIm
Hi Tim:The true statement would be that Jesus did what God wanted him to do, and in that he obeyed God even unto death on the cross in spite of what men could do to him. He overcame sin and death learning obedience by the things that he suffered.
Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Thus, he has experiental knowledge in how to live in right standing with God, and therefore, he can say,
Quote Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. To say that men did what God wanted them to do is to make God an accomplice to their evil deeds. Men did it for evil, but God allowed it for the good of all of humanity.
God Bless
Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'Nuff said.
Hi KJ:Again, you are jumping to conclusions without understanding every thing that has been said by God about Pharaoh.
God's people were in bondage to Pharaoh who did them much evil.
Quote Exd 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exd 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, [and] my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.
Quote 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, THAT I MAY LAY MY HAND UPON EGYPT, AND BRING FORTH MINE ARMIES, [and] MY PEOPLE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT BY GREAT JUDGMENTS. Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27) Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled. I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?
No, Mandy:God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.
Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,16:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27) Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled. I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?
No, Mandy:God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.
I struggle with this idea that God knows how everything plays out and who will obey the evil in their hearts and who will serve him till the end.I mean, you could be one that turns to the evil in your heart? Sure, you serve him now, but what about in five years time? Perhaps you will wonder from the path? God knows this even now as you praise him. Doesn't that make you feel a little uneasy. Like if he knows you will curse him eventually, can he even enjoy your praises today?
Hi not3,
How could we be seduced from the path?
One day and one step at a time.
But lest we boast
1 Corinthians 10:12
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!Hi not3,
His god was mammon,
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
Quote (942767 @ April 06 2008,23:39) Quote (kejonn @ April 07 2008,14:56) Quote (942767 @ April 06 2008,18:57) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,11:23) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?TIm
Hi Tim:The true statement would be that Jesus did what God wanted him to do, and in that he obeyed God even unto death on the cross in spite of what men could do to him. He overcame sin and death learning obedience by the things that he suffered.
Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Thus, he has experiental knowledge in how to live in right standing with God, and therefore, he can say,
Quote Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. To say that men did what God wanted them to do is to make God an accomplice to their evil deeds. Men did it for evil, but God allowed it for the good of all of humanity.
God Bless
Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'Nuff said.
Hi KJ:Again, you are jumping to conclusions without understanding every thing that has been said by God about Pharaoh.
God's people were in bondage to Pharaoh who did them much evil.
Quote Exd 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exd 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, [and] my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.
Quote 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, THAT I MAY LAY MY HAND UPON EGYPT, AND BRING FORTH MINE ARMIES, [and] MY PEOPLE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT BY GREAT JUDGMENTS.
I understand the symbolism of what is going on, it just reminds me of a bad kung-fu movie. Ya know, the one's where the premise is all about revenge?Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,00:35) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,16:48) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 07 2008,15:27) Yes, Kevin, I have also wondered about Pharaoh and Judas for that matter, that they were basically used for evil so that prophesy could be fulfilled. I guess God will have mercy on their souls because they had a role to play?
No, Mandy:God allowed them to obey their own evil thoughts, but He did not use them for evil. He forsaw what they would do in the course of the fulfillment of his plan.
I struggle with this idea that God knows how everything plays out and who will obey the evil in their hearts and who will serve him till the end.I mean, you could be one that turns to the evil in your heart? Sure, you serve him now, but what about in five years time? Perhaps you will wonder from the path? God knows this even now as you praise him. Doesn't that make you feel a little uneasy. Like if he knows you will curse him eventually, can he even enjoy your praises today?
Mandy,Sadly the majority fundamental Christian view is that we basically have no free will. Everything we do is determined already. I'd hate going through life knowing I really had no choice in things.
Nick:
Quote Hi KJ,
The philosopher said
'Ecclesiastes 10:20
Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber: for a bird of the air shall carry the voice, and that which hath wings shall tell the matter.Quote kejonn: And? “And” so be careful not to curse the king or his rich friends from your bedroom for fear that a passing bird will tell tales. If a snake can speak pre-Babel, I would have thought birds should be expected to be articulate in Shakespearean english.
Stuart
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