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Maybe at this point we should consider why God has allowed for his name not to be shown in the NT or for it to be unclear.
1 Cor 11:18,19
1 Cor 13:1-10
Another thought is in 1 Corinthians 15:27,28
Jeremy,
Did you see the first two posts that I wrote to you on the previous page. There were several places where YHWH was written in the NT. The HRV Bible has translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts which have clear indications where the name YHWH would be. Many scholars say that the NT was written in Aramaic and not in Greek.David,
Go here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….16;st=0Thank you Lightenup, it does make alot more sense for the first copies to be in Aramaic and then translated. First the Jews and then the Greeks.
Quote (david @ July 25 2012,01:04) “that seems an interesting topic and could very easily HAVE IT'S OWN THREAD.”–David.
David and Jeremy,This thread is about whether or not God's personal name appears in the NT. How is Kathi “off topic” in this regard?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2012,20:34) Mike
Again, I ask:Did you look into this translation to see how they translated this version before you made your claim, yes or no??
No. Can you post a brief history of this NT in which the name “YHWH” is used?Here is some information of the Hebrew Roots Bible and Hebrew Roots Version:
Go to this website and scroll down to the “Hebrew Roots Bible” and click on the link to read it online. Also, the Hebrew Roots Version below it has a very informative intro as to how it was translated. Go to page 54 of the intro and you can read about how they knew where the YHWH went in the NT.http://www.angelfire.com/hi2….es.html
Here is what page 54 and 55 say about the placement of the name YHWH is objective and not subjective:
The Sacred Name
In the past, sacred name versions of the New Testament have depended largely
on guesswork to determine where “Lord” means YHWH and where “Lord” means
ADON/ADONAI. This is because the Greek New Testament (at least as we have it
today) does not distinguish between the two, having Greek KURIOS for both YHWH and
ADON/ADONAI. However we know from both the Tosefta and Talmuds (ancient Jewish
writings) that certain New Testament manuscripts contained the name of YHWH in their
text (t.Shab. 13:5; b.Shab. 116a; j.Shab. 15c). Now our Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts
preserve for us knowledge of where “Lord” in the NT was YHWH and where it was
ADON/ADONAI. The DuTillet Hebrew manuscript of Matthew repeats the Hebrew
letter YUD two or three times encircled as to mark places where the name of YHWH
should go. The Shem Tob Hebrew version of Matthew has the Hebrew letter HEY
standing alone (and in one place the word HASHEM spelled out) to mark places where
the name of YHWH belongs. The Munster Hebrew text of Matthew actually contains the
name of YHWH spelled out where it belongs. The Old Syriac, Peshitta and Crawford
Aramaic manuscripts of NT books also distinguish between YHWH and
ADON/ADONAI. As a rule103 the Aramaic Peshitta Tanak (Old Testament) renders
EL/ELOAH/ELOHIM with ALAHA; ADONAI/ADON with MAR and YHWH with MARYA. For Example:
Psalm 110:1a Hebrew: YHWH said to my ADON…
Psalm 110:1a Aramaic: MARYA said to my MAR…
This pattern continues through the Aramaic NT as well. These Aramaic manuscripts
have Aramaic MARYA for YHWH and Aramaic MAR (or MARI or MARAN) for
ADON/ADONAI. Now we have objective manuscript evidence to support placement of
the sacred name into the NT text, the era of guesswork is over. The Hebraic Roots
Version will be the first “sacred name” NT to use such objective manuscript evidence to
restore the sacred name to the New Testament.There is so much more info in that intro to the Hebraic Roots Version. You really ought to skim through it.
I was hoping you would have a date of the oldest Hebrew or Aramaic NT. What is the oldest one ever found?
(Any scribe AFTER THE FACT can add things to original mss, Kathi. We see it all the time. In fact, there are additions to the Hebrew text of Genesis that were made by a much later scribe. One example is:
Genesis 14:14
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.Dan hadn't even been born yet, let alone given a portion of Canaanite land.
So what's to say that scribes (like the JW's) didn't later ADD the divine name into the texts whereever THEY thought the name belonged?
Also, who did Paul write his letters to? Hebrews? Or Gentiles? Why on earth would Paul write in Hebrew to people who spoke Greek, and not Hebrew?
These are just a few off the top of my head.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2012,11:09) Genesis 14:14
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan.peace,
mike
Hi Mike, (Link)Barnabas 8:12-13 Mark, first the eighteen, and next the three hundred. For the numeral letters of ten and eight are I H. And these denote Jesus.
13. And because it was by the cross we were to find grace, he said, three hundred; the note of which is T (the figure of his cross). Therefore by two letters he signified Jesus, and by the third his cross.
14. He who has put the engrafted gift of his doctrine within us, knows that I never taught to anyone a more certain truth; but I trust that you are worthy of it.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike,
Those are all good questions. This resource is very interesting. It is in a PDF form and I can't copy and paste from it. You can find it by going to this google search link and clicking on the fourth option “Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek.”https://www.google.com/search?….bih=821
Within chapter 6 regarding the historical (external proofs), you can find part of this quote from Josephus about Greek not being his own tongue. You can read his writings here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.xxi.xi.htmlFor those of my own nation freely acknowledge that I far exceed them in the learning belonging to Jews; I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.
I encourage you to read the PDF publication because it is very thorough.
For those of my own nation freely acknowledge that I far exceed them in the learning belonging to Jews; I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains.
who as written this Kathi
To all………..I found a Greek Linear translation and am reading it and what a difference in the wording we have in our translations of what and how scripture in the original Greek was changed to meet our Language., Words like “beginning” , in Greek is “Origin”, and “word” is “saying”, and “near” is “toward”, and on an on it goes hundreds if not thousands of different way of expressing thoughts, No wonder Mill said He found over 20,000 grammatical error in the English bibles. I have been trying to read in the Greek (direct translations) from what is written and it does make an impact on the way i view some scriptures and i believe would with all of us. I believe if we could all find one common Greek interlinear text and work together off of it we might all Grow in our understands here. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………….Gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 29 2012,09:03) To all………..I found a Greek Linear translation and am reading it and what a difference in the wording we have in our translations of what and how scripture in the original Greek was changed to meet our Language., Words like “beginning” , in Greek is “Origin”, and “word” is “saying”, and “near” is “toward”, and on an on it goes hundreds if not thousands of different way of expressing thoughts, No wonder Mill said He found over 20,000 grammatical error in the English bibles. I have been trying to read in the Greek (direct translations) from what is written and it does make an impact on the way i view some scriptures and i believe would with all of us. I believe if we could all find one common Greek interlinear text and work together off of it we might all Grow in our understands here. IMO peace and love to you all………………………………….Gene
well were is itQuote (Gene Balthrop @ July 28 2012,09:03) I found a Greek Linear translation and am reading it and what a difference in the wording we have in our translations of what and how scripture in the original Greek was changed to meet our Language.
That's good stuff, Gene. If you look up any scripture on Net Bible, it will list 9 English translations, plus the actual Hebrew or Greek words below. If you scroll over the Strong's numbers on the Hebrew and Greek translations below, you can piece together the verse word by word. (Remember to read the Hebrew from right to left, ie: last word in the verse backwards to the first word in the verse.)Pierre,
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (37 CE – circa 100 CE) .For centuries Josephus' works were more widely read in Europe than any book other than the Bible. They are an invaluable eye-witness to a momentous turning point in Judaism, Christianity, and Western civilization.
He wrote in Aramaic and another translated it into Greek from what it says here about one of his works:
“Flavius Josephus wrote first work, the Jewish War, in Aramaic, and presented it to Vespasian between 75 and 79. An assistant translated it into the language of scholars of his days, Greek; this second edition was dedicated to Titus, who had become emperor in 79.”
from here: http://www.livius.org/jo-jz/josephus/josephus.htmYou can find his writings here:
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/JOSEPHUS.HTM
or
http://www.josephus.org/Hi Gene,
Greek interlinears are good but there is plenty of evidence that the original NT was written in Aramaic/Hebrew. So an Aramaic interlinear would be better then. The way to find it is to go to here: http://bible.cc/matthew/1-1.htm and then put in your Bible verse that you want to read in the search box, then scroll down to the translation that says 'Aramaic Bible in Plain English.' Click on that name of the translation and then on the page which then comes up, click on 'NT Interlinear' which will download a PDF document which has that Bible chapter in Aramaic with English translation.It is really very interesting to read.
Hi Kathi,
I haven't yet had the time to really delve into the origin or the HRV, but you quoted this scripture from it in another thread:
Revealing the Trinity, I Cor. 12:4-6 (HRV) says, “there are distributions of gifts but the SPIRIT IS ONE (the Holy Spirit). And there are distributions of services but YHWH IS ONE (Yahshua). And there are distributions of powers but ELOAH IS ONE” (the Father).
I have three questions about this:
1. Did you know that the epistles were not even in the oldest known Aramaic NT mss?
2. Does it make sense to you that Paul, who ministered to the Gentiles – most of whom did not speak Hebrew, would write his letters to them in a language they didn't even know?
3. Doesn't this scripture list the Father as “God”, and Jesus ALONE as “YHWH”?
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