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Hi Proclaimer,
I really enjoy this topic, it’s rather fascinating to me.
I want to leave out the term “free will” and just see if we can agree on what I say below.
We obviously are given the freedom to make our own choices, freedom to tell the truth over telling a lie, freedom to share something someone else wants over keeping it all for oneself, etc…, we are not puppets.
The decisions I make come out from my own thoughts, no one is doing my thinking for me, therefore no one is making choices for me.
One person can influence and even be the driving force that convinced a person to make a certain decision over another. People can cause other people to change their mind and that change of mind then of course changed their decision.
agree??
When someone changes your mind it shows free will not the lack of it. If they make a convincing argument or a better argument then you choose to let that change your mind or you double down on your lesser argument if your pride had been hurt.
If you choose to be good and honest, then you can change your mind when truth has been presented to you that is contrary to what you previously held.
Proclaimer….Arguments never change minds, the truth of God does if you have it, because it guide your thinking. But if you don’t have it, you will never change , you will alway go with what most “influences you, every time. Those who have not the Spirit are they that are held captive by their own thoughts, from whatever sources they come from, fear, lust, or whatever is most imfluencing your mind. Nothing “free” About it.
Those Isrealites did not keep God’s law because they , by their own so-called “freewills” wanted to, no, but because they were “caused” to. Just as Moses said, “fear not for the Lord you God has done this that the “fear” of him , would be before your face, (for what reason?), that you sin not.” Ex 20: 20
So God “cause them to obey what he said, by filling them with the fear of him. again , “cause and effect”. The cause was fear and the effect was keeping God’s words, it had nothing to do with a will that was free, just the oppisit, a will held captive by “fear”. That is why a person cannot be justified by works of law, because the works of law does not change your heart, we all must be recreated by God’s Spirit , “YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN”, from above.
Proclaimer, the very word “will” shows cause and effect. That is why we are being , “created” unto rightiousness, “. By the direction of the Spirit of God, your or my so-called freewill’s has nothing to do with it , it is GOD THE FATHERS, Will that will be done on this earth” , according to Jesus.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU:
When someone changes your mind it shows free will not the lack of it. If they make a convincing argument or a better argument then you choose to let that change your mind or you double down on your lesser argument if your pride had been hurt.
If you choose to be good and honest, then you can change your mind when truth has been presented to you that is contrary to what you previously held.
ME:
I said nothing about “free will”, I am trying to leave that term out of it. You equate free will to mean the same thing as “freedom to choose” anyway, so let’s just stick with that if we can.
As I said, “One person can influence and even be the driving force that convinced a person to make a certain decision over another. People can cause other people to change their mind and that change of mind then of course changed their decision.”
If someone changes your mind it shows that you indeed not only have the freedom to make a decision but also the freedom to change your decision.
None of the less, even as you did have the freedom to choose, someone else in fact caused you to make a certain decision that you otherwise would not have made.
Those who God calls are those who God causes to walk in His ways, and God can cause us to walk in all of His ways.
If one man has the power to convince another man, just think about how powerful God is at doing that.
Proclaimer, are you going to tell me that God is not capable of convincing a mere human of something that He is set on convincing them of?
Gene
you
What you don’t understand right and wrong good and evil , always existed, God created it all, yes both good and evil. GOD WANTED THEM TO “know” it for THEMSELVES, so they “disobed God , and there eyes were opened as they began to “experience” or “knowing” good and evil for themselves.
Me
Genesis 1!31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
TELL ME ONE BAD THING THAT GOD WOULD HAVE
CREATED.Proclaimer….Arguments never change minds, the truth of God
That is why we give you scripture. And yet, I have tested you on a number of occasions by just quoting scripture, but made to look like my words. Guess what? You argued against it. Enough said. You failed.
Free will means you have a will and it is free to choose among the influences or things that have no influence.
Pick a number between 1200 and 2000.
1456.
I chose that number.
If that question was asked last week, I doubt I would have chosen that number.’
Now for things that influence me. I use to believe in Evolution and was a staunch Atheist. I did something wise many years ago. I decided to put the argument of God’s existence to bed. I prayed to him and asked for him to talk to me. And that is what he did. It was extraordinary. I then changed my mind and believed in God’s existence. But I honestly believed I couldn’t stop sinning so my faith would be short lived. But my passion for God made me press on and overcome. When I failed I got right back up. Eventually God showed me heaven and then outer darkness in powerful visions. At this point, it is not really a belief but a knowing.
Free will all the way Jodi. At any time I could have chosen to not follow God and I still can. But I love God and that love comes from free will. It cannot come from a program that is fed to you. This is why God can judge us. Because we truly make decisions via our will. We are free to choose.
Get over it Jodi. You and Gene always taking the opposing view of scripture. You can choose to just believe you know.
Proclaimer,
You:
This is why God can judge us. Because we truly make decisions via our will. We are free to choose.
Get over it Jodi. You and Gene always taking the opposing view of scripture.
ME:
I’m sorry it seems like you didn’t see or actually listening to my words,
“<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>We obviously are given the freedom to make our own choices</span>, freedom to tell the truth over telling a lie, freedom to share something someone else wants over keeping it all for oneself, etc…, we are not puppets.
<span style=”color: #ff0000;”>The decisions I make come out from my own thoughts, no one is doing my thinking for me, therefore no one is making choices for me.”</span>
Proclaimer,…..Your describing the Freedom, we have to “do” our wills , not the very will “ITSELF” , THAT where your mixed up, yes we do all have freedom to do what we will to do, but that will we have, is made up by what’s “influencing” us the most it’s called, “cause and effect” , what in your mind drives our will’s, nothing free about it.
Again you confusing our freedom to exercise our will’s, with how the will “itself works”. We are all held captive by our will’s, that is why we need the Spirit of God to be “in” us, to cause us to will or desire the right things, just as it says, “God works “in” us, “BOTH TO WILL”, and do of “His” Good pleasure”.
I realize, you had rather think you saved yourself by your own so-called “freewill” choices, but that’s not true, ““we are saved by “GRACE”, and that “NOT” of ourselves, it is a gift of God.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU: …we truly make decisions via our will. We are free to choose.
ME: I agree with your above statement as it is written, and I will state the same in two other ways,
I am free to use my own will to make choices.
I have the freedom to make choices where I use my will to make a decision.
So we have the freedom to choose and THEN we have our own will that we use to make decisions.
But it’s actually even more complicated then that!
Just as Jesus said, NOT as I WILL but AS YOU WILL.
Sometimes we set aside our own wills, our own desires and do what someone else wants us to do.
Our OWN WILLS actually only play a part in making decisions, there are other factors that we consider before making our final choice.
Come on now, we know that some people are so called push-overs, that’s because their own wills are weak you can get them to do anything, while other people are very strong willed and you can’t convince them of anything.
Freedom, we have to “do” our wills ,
Thank you. Yes we have free will. You might understand it differently, but you believe in free will according to your statement.
Just as Jesus said, NOT as I WILL but AS YOU WILL.
A perfect example of free will. He chose to do the will of God even over his own will.
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
See how Jesus wanted to be spared from the suffering he was about to endure. But he knew that whatever God wanted was best.
Come on now, we know that some people are so called push-overs, that’s because their own wills are weak you can get them to do anything, while other people are very strong willed and you can’t convince them of anything.
Another example of free will.
Pushovers have chosen to be weak over a period of time. It is the accumulation of decisions they have made that has given them no backbone. They are accountable to God for the kind of person they turned out to be. And that is because they could have chosen differently.
Proclainer……as I said before , you simply do not Believe your own video you posted. Everything is the result of “CAUSE AND EFFECT”. YOU ONLY DO WHAT YOU DO HERE BECAUSE YOUR ARE “CAUSED ” TO. I ALSO ONLY DO WHAT I AM CAUSED TO ALSO.
I’ll make it simple for you gene.
One cause is our sinful nature. Another cause is the Spirit of God.
Now choose one because you are free to choose between the flesh and the spirit.
Hi Proclaimer
YOU:
I’ll make it simple for you gene.
One cause is our sinful nature. Another cause is the Spirit of God.
Now choose one because you are free to choose between the flesh and the spirit.
ME:
You seem to treat our sinful nature as if it holds the same level of convincing power that God’s Spirit holds. You sure make YOUR God Proclaimer out to be pathetic and weak, I’ll give you that! Your God resembles NOTHING like that of mine, and the way you view the Holy Spirit seems rather blasphemous in my opinion.
Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways:
Isaiah 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Isaiah 36:,,,I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Proclaimer, God declares such things as “I will direct all his ways” and ” I will cause you to walk in my statutes” because when He chooses to place His influence upon you it’s so powerful it cannot be denied, it supersedes all other influences. His calling CAUSES ALL OTHER INFLUENCES TO BECOME TOTALLY FOOLISH and you want absolutely nothing more to do with them.
I think you better read below and spend some time thinking about it.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to* make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Jodi…..AMEN. they just don’t get it, that there is ‘NO” will itself, that is itself free. they don’t understand that it is God that can and does, cause our will’s to function a certanily way. That is exactly how he can predict òur outcome, and know the finish from the start.
That is also how he can even name people 200 years before they are even born , like Cyrus, And say exactly what they will do. That is exactly how Jesus understood the glory he had with the Father, before he was ever born.
The carnel minded, likes to think they are the masters of their own destinies, and they save themselves by their own so-called “freewill” thoughts. Not undstanding we are all held captive by our own thoughts that drives our wills, until God sets us free, and feeds our minds with his will, by indwelling us though his Spirit. Just as it says, “for it is (God) that works in you , “BOTH” to “Will” and do of “HIS” good pleasure.”
AND ALSO, the LORD bless you and “KEEP” you, “MAKE” his face to shine ON YOU, and be GRACIOUS unto you, and lift up ‘HIS’ countenance upon you and give you Peace.
ALL done, by the power of God the Fathers Spirit.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
You seem to treat our sinful nature as if it holds the same level of convincing power that God’s Spirit holds. You sure make YOUR God Proclaimer out to be pathetic and weak, I’ll give you that! Your God resembles NOTHING like that of mine, and the way you view the Holy Spirit seems rather blasphemous in my opinion.
Wrong again. Paul teaches us all about sin and its sting. Let me recap for you what brother Paul taught us in Romans and Galatians. There is a lot of wisdom in these books. I recommend reading them.
The struggles of the flesh are real and what is of the flesh is way more than you obviously believe. And how many people do you know that started with Christ but later fell into sin and fell away from God. If God overpowered us by his Spirit, then no one would fall away and he would be effectively making the decision for us rather than letting us choose freely.
I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you
For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
We have the choice to follow either. Because God gave man the ability to choose.
Amen!
Jodi. Your idea that God is so powerful that he empowers us so that sin has zero influence over us doesn’t match reality.
Just because we still struggle with our flesh nature is no proof that God is without power. Wake up. God doesn’t overpower us to the point that we never sin and have complete control over our nature. No, that will only happen when we get the new nature / body. It is then that we are complete with the Spirit we have now as the deposit.
don’t understand that it is God that can and does, cause our will’s to function a certanily way
Pity the guy then that lives for Christ his whole life and denies God on his deathbed. God willed it that way according to you. But what if that guy was you and then you face judgement. Pretty sure you might mention how unfair it was that you had no choice in the matter. But if you did that, then it would be God controlling you to say it according to your doctrine. Oh well. Hell for you anyway gene and you even preached this possibility.
Wake up Gene. Be careful what you ask for. Don’t be foolish. If you see God like that, then your reality is warped. God is love. Love means free will. Does your wife love you gene or does she have no choice in the matter and pretends to love you as she follows a script. If the latter, then she doesn’t love you unfortunately. But I guess you are okay with this reality.
Proclaimer my, my, how you drift around, and sell God and his saving power Short. If we lived how you believe no one would ever be saved, or haven’t you ever read what Paul quoted?
Rom 3:10…..as it is written, there is “none” rightious “no not one”: There is “none” that understands, there is ‘none” that seeks after God. read the rest on your own.
Psm 53:3….Everyone of them is gone back: they are “altogether” become filthy; there is none that does Good “no” not “one”.
Rom 2:21-28, read that too while your at it, then come back and tell us how you some how saved your self by your own, so-called “freewill” choices did it.
Proclaimer if you were of the truth you would understand that, IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
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