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Proclaimer……Top down “causation”, I believe the Spirit of God works “causation”, by giving us our cognisities, causing our wills to function the way they do. Life is a function of “cause and effect”, IMO,
Peaceand love to you and yours………gene
I like how you said, “I believe”. This denotes free will. If there is no free will, then you are a robot who cannot choose. Rather you obey programmed instructions and have no decision making process.
Proclaimer…..will and belife are not senomous, you can believe you must do something, but apsolutely not want to? There is no such thing as a “freewill”, that is an OXYMORON.
I realize you don’t understand that as you don’t obviously understand my last post , about “Top down “causation” , it appears.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Proclaimer…..will and belife are not senomous, you can believe you must do something, but apsolutely not want to? There is no such thing as a “freewill”, that is an OXYMORON.
Hilarious how you are basically saying you didn’t choose to post this and that I am not choosing to post my opinion either.
That is a megaoxymoron.
Proclaimer, wills have nothing to do with a “free” choice, will’s are a result of ” causility” a Will is the effect of what “causes it”, evidently you didn’t get the message of what your own video post said.
The is no such thing as haps chance when it comes to our minds, if freewill exists then God could not “prophesy” about anything, because it would all be about a “chance”. God knows the end from the beginning, not because of any so-called “will” that is “free” itself. But just the oppisit he knew, because the will is held captive by what being feed into THE MIND, that causes the will or desires, nothing “free” about it. Go back and take another look at your video, maybe this time, you can get it!
The term “freewill”, is an OXYMORON, because no such thing exists. God have given us freedom to a point to, exercise our “captivated ” will’s, you will do always what is driving your mind the most, rather it be Good or Evil. If freewill exists there could never be given “eternal” life, because no one could know when a person might change his will in the future. So how could a person be promised “eternal” life then? We must be “permanently” changed , before we can be given “eternal” life.
Therefore it says , “I will take out of them the stoney heart, and give them a heart of flesh (soft heart) , and I will write my law in their “inward” parts, and I will be their God and they shall be my people. “TO DOWN CAUSATION” , We are being “caused or “Created” unto good works”, it not our own so-called “freewill” choices that does it, it is an act of God that causes it, “TOP DOWN CAUSATION”.
Think about it Proclaimer.
Peace and love to you and yours……….gene
But according to you, I have no will to make this post because of a cause, so why even bother? Why do we even preach to anyone? They can only hear due to causality which we have no control over.
Lol.
But wait, causality has it that you will post against this even though this is the actual conclusion we draw from your teaching which you would say is not your teaching, but the result of causality.
Lol again.
And another lol.
Proclainer……as I said before , you simply do not Believe your own video you posted. Everything is the result of “CAUSE AND EFFECT”. YOU ONLY DO WHAT YOU DO HERE BECAUSE YOUR ARE “CAUSED ” TO. I ALSO ONLY DO WHAT I AM CAUSED TO ALSO.
HERE is something, you may come to understand, if everything you “do” is a result of your own so-called “freewill” thought, then please tell us why God has to , take out of you the “stoney” heart, and give you a heart of Flesh, and even write his law in your inward parts?, before he can become your God and you his son then?
Can’t your so-called ““freewill” do it all by yourself, why does God have to work in us “both” to “WILL” and do of “his” good pleasure. why can’t just our own “freewill” do it on its own? Why did Jesus say “NO” man can come unto me unless the Father draw him?, I mean according to you we can of our “OWN” so-called “frewill” do it right?
Bottom line Proclaimer, you haven’t a clue what you are saying or LOL about. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………….gene
Can’t your so-called ““freewill” do it all by yourself,
Your understanding of free will is very poor, almost childish. No one is saying that free will means you can do anything you want. Rather it is the ability to choose among the options presented to you.
Like choosing to be led by the Spirit rather than being a slave to your flesh.
If you drive to a T junction, you can choose to turn left, right, or turn around. But you would say, what about up. But that may not be an option and that doesn’t negate free will.
Why not choose to learn about this topic first before saying silly things?
A major difference between a human and a robot is free will. Try to understand the difference. You can do this.
Proclaimer…..Again, I say, you will “always” chose what influences you the most. And therefore the term “freewill”, is an OXYMORON. Had you truly paid attention to your own posted video you would have understood that. Take a drug addict, do you really think they all do drugs because they simply by a “freewill” or want to?, no they are driven to by the drug addition, can the quite simply because they decided to, according to you , they simply can by their own so-called “freewill’s” trust me that dosen’t work, 20 years ago I was a smoker and tried for over a year to quite , I tried everything imaginable, but couldn’t quite, because the nicotine addiction was greater the my desire to quite, so after a year I Prayed to God the Father For help and I got up from that prayer and never had a desire anymore , not any , no withdrawals, it was as if I never smoked in my life, even to this day.
You would say see your “freewill” did that, you would be wrong , my “fear”, of dying from infasema , was influencing me the most so I “Willed” to quite, my will was being held captive by nicotine, So could only do it with the help of God, and that took place in an instant after I prayed about it, and have never had a desire smoked sense.
REMEMBER also I am not saying we don’t have freedom to “exercise” our “captivated” wills, I am talking about the will “ITSELF” how it works and there is nothing free about it, it is the result of “influences” taking place in your brain, either from this world, or of the Spirit of God.
1 John 2:18…..”For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not from the Father, but is of the world., and the world passes away, and the lust thereof : but he that does the “will” of God abides forever.”
You or no one else have produced a single scripture that say a “man’s will “itself” is “free”. If that were true nothing could be prophesied to happen, why, because you could “never know” what a person would do, just time and chance would be all there is. Chances of something happining is no guarantee of it happining now is it? God does not base his predictions on “chance” he apsolutely knows the end from the beginning , because he knows exactly what we will do before we ever do it.
I understand you want your salvation to be all about your own so-called “freewill” choices , you take “pride” in that thought, but the truth is we are “saved by the “GRACE” of God, and that not of “OURSELVES”, it truly is a gift from God. ”
Peace and love to you and yours…………gene
Again, I say, you will “always” chose what influences you the most.
Then you are a robot and a defective one at that.
Sometimes sin overcomes me. But my heart is to do the right thing. Overall, if my heart is right with God, then I will overcome. That is, I will choose God overall. My choice and your choice to be an overcomer. No excuses weak one. Unless you are a robot or NPC, then no excuses please. Nothing in scripture says that among us are NPCs. But it does say weeds. If you are by nature a weed and cannot choose to become wheat and this in turn forms your doctrine, then who am I to argue with you. It’s your choice, even if you do not believe it. I am telling you that you can choose to be an overcomer. Be led by the Spirit of God. Your mind can choose to overcome even the greatest of temptations. Because the desire to do the right thing is a choice, not a fleshly impulse.
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
You have the knowledge of right or wrong. Conscience is the following:
con= with
science = knowledge.With this, you can choose to either fulfill the lusts of the flesh or be led by the Spirit of God. You have the choice because no matter the strength of the temptation, God will give you an escape, but is up to you to CHOOSE it.
Imagine fighting against a powerful river current and being swept away, but then God also provides a current to counter it. In one sense, you are now in still peaceful water and can go anyway you want. But if you focus on the powerful current against you, then you will be swept away. So focus on God. Now you have the strength to make a choice and go through with it. God doesn’t double the current so you are swept away in the opposite direction. He gives you a fighting chance to choose which direction. Up to you. This is one reason why you have free will gene.
Proclaimer………On the one hand you tell us you are doing it by your own “freewill”, then out of the other side say God does it, by not letting it get to much for you. But overall you are saying, your salvation is up to you. I disagree with that, my salvation is not up to me or I would never be saved, my salvation is up to YEHOVAH, MY GOD. I am saved by, grace through “faith”, in him, which he gave me, to accept the gift of the payment of my sins through the blood of Jesus, which he (GOD) , gave to us all, who believe. I completely believe that I am saved by ” grace and that “NOT” of myself, it is a “GIFT” from GOD, my heavenly Father. I am not save by my “own” so-called “FREEWILL”. But by the “will” of God, who works in me “both to “WILL” and Do of ‘HIS” good pleasure.
You can say that is being a robot, but I will tell you this, scripture says, “we are being “created” unto good works. And if is by way of creation, then it is not of “my own” “freewill” that would be giving me the credit of my salvation, by my own choices.
Proclaimer there exists no such thing as a “will” that is “free” that an OXYMORON, because no such thing can exist. All will’s are drive by something, or it would not even be a “WILL” in the first place , all wills are “caused” nothing “free” about it, are we free to exercise those influenced will”s yes, but that never make the WILL itself free. IMO
WE ARE ALL HELD CAPTIVE BY OUR THOUGHTS. Either for Good or Evil.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene
God makes choices possible and you choose.
There were two trees in the garden. God made these possible, but free choice remains.
Proclaimer, does God “ask” you or “command” you. GOD did not “ask” Adam and Eve, not to eat of the tree of Good and Evil, he cammanded them not to eat from it or they would die. Please understand he was not just talking about chosen one or the other, like choosing good or evil. He was talking about then not taking to themselves to (know) experience either one “good” or “evil”. It had nothing to do with a “freewill” choice, they were given. What Adam and Eve did was “desobey” God the Father, infact the actual choice they made was a “good” Choice , who would not want there eyes oppned to see thing as God Does, infact it is exactly what God know they would do all along , he planed it that way, from the start. He simply used Satan as a catlist to speed up things.
What you don’t understand right and wrong good and evil , always existed, God created it all, yes both good and evil. GOD WANTED THEM TO “know” it for THEMSELVES, so they “disobed God , and there eyes were opened as they began to “experience” or “knowing” good and evil for themselves.
We could never truly know what was good and evil “ourselves” unless we experienced it for our selves, God the Father know that from the Get go. So he set it up for us to experience both Good and Evil, in hopes we will grow to hate the Evil and love the Good. Satan is simply a tool God uses to bring about his purposes.
That had nothing to do with a so-called ““freewill” choice at all. It all was about obidenice or disobedience. God know from the very start man would go the way he did, he even added Satan to speed process along. Don’t you believe God the Father knew exactly what they would do all along . IT was needful for us to “experience” (know) for ourselves about “good and evil” it makes us more like God the Father. DIDN’T God say that right after they did it, saying, “look the man has become as we are to (know) Good and Evil”.
Good and evil will always exist so it is needful, we as the childern of God , know and understand it for ourselves. We through experiencing it learn to, love the Good, and hate the Evil.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene, it is nice to see you exercising your free will by choosing to post here once again.
I will make it simple for you. The universe is likely deterministic in that if you knew the the position of every particle then you could calculate the state of the universe at any given time according to the laws of physics. But consciousness is not deterministic. Consciousness is awareness in part because of free will. If you do not have the ability to choose, then you could just be a program with convincing emotional responses. When God commands us to love him, the program makes us love him which of course means that love is not real but a programmed response.
But God created us because he loves us and wants us to love him. He also holds us responsible for the decisions we make. This is a huge clue if you choose to see it because love springs from free will or having a choice. You cannot force anyone to love you or love God. Therefore free will was essential. It opens up risk of course but it also opens up the greatest thing in the universe and beyond it. That is love.
Some scientists see free will as not relevant because being fleshly in nature, they believe that consciousnesses comes from the brain which is part of the physical universe. But free will comes from something greater than the physical universe. The physical universe can neither create a mind, nor love or life.
The physical universe is more like an operating system for our minds. Just as I operate Windows on my computer, the computer may be deterministic, but the operators are not. Thus we move in a universe that has laws of motion, so it is predictable. But a person can choose among the available options. Unlike a meteorite, the sun, or an electron.
Proclaimer. …..you are basically saying you chose to save your own self, by your own so-called freewill self decisions, that is not what scripture says. “for you are saved by “Grace” and not of “yourself’ it is a “gift” from God.” , and again , “they are “all” gone out of the way they are together become unprofitable , there is none that does good, no not one”, why is that , seening you believe your own “freewill” choices can save you. Fact is our own “choices” will alway come to runation. That is why we must be saved by “the Grace of God” , through the blood of Jesus, which he “GOD” offered up for us all.
Now as for “our consciousness” it has nothing to do with “wills” at all, consciousness is 100% Spirit, that is how God changes us by changing our conscious awareness. “Life”, is what consciousness is, every thing living has it’s own gift of consciousness recieved from God the creator of “all” things. It all, without exception, comes from our gift of awareness or cognisity’s , which comes from God the Father, he knows the end from the beginning because he gives us our conscious awareness.
Therefore seening he give it to us, he can predict the outcome, he can “cause it to come into being and predict it’s out come, Just as he did Jesus, through the Prophets, God predicts it and causes it to happen , “freewill” has nothing to do with it, it’s all “cause and effect”. GOD predicts it and causes it to happen. That is why we are saved by “GRACE”, not of ourselves.
God the Father says it and causes it to happen, your desire to be free from that “truth”, is driven by your human nature I believe, because Nearly all human want control of their own lives, apart from God’s control over themselves, but that always come to ruin. We must die to our own wills, like Jesus said and did, “not “my will” be done , but thy will be done”. You see Proclaimer, Jesus’ will, was not to die, God’s will was for him to DIE, Jesus put “his “will” to death, why, because he who was “in” him was greater the he was. Hanging on to the idea of a “freewill” is not putting your will to death, not to even mention there exists no such thing as a “freewill” all will’s are the result of, “cause and effect”. The word “freewill” is a OXYMORON, None exists.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
Proclaimer,
YOU:
God makes choices possible and you choose.
There were two trees in the garden. God made these possible, but free choice remains.
ME:
Proclaimer please hear me out,
Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to believe that having the freedom to make choices is what having a free will means, that these two are one and the same.
I say they are not the same thing at all, so the problem here might be more about DEFINITIONS.
Your will is a product of what influences you (experiences, individual perception to those experiences, knowledge, your character that is developed from both nature and nurture and directly impacts your own perceptions to experiences) and as you do not have control over ALL that influences you that makes your will not one that is free, it makes your will dependent upon many factors of which many are out of your control.
When you are deciding on a choice you are USING your WILL to make that decision. Decisions are made through your will.
One is the force that CAUSES the other. Your will is the force that causes a choice to be made.
The definition of WILL is not CHOICE, so if you are trying to tell us that free will is defined as having the freedom of choice, to me that’s absurd.
Proclaimer and All,
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus,Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
God forgives us of our sins by reason of the anointed Jesus.
God forgives us of our sins by means of His eternal Spirit that was all in Jesus leading him to obedience onto the cross.
God forgives us of our sins Proclaimer not because he sent a spirit son to become flesh and then die for our sins, that is just so VAIN, so STUPID, an EMPTY USELESS DOCTRINE.
God forgives us of our sins because He was not ALL in any of us, to where we could be influenced and thus caused to walk in all His ways in the first place.
By reason of the anointed Jesus, God has reason to forgive us all, as the anointed Jesus is proof of what God’s Spirit causes. If Jesus wasn’t just like us, then there is NO SAVING. It’s all based on the fact that Jesus was a mortal human weak like us all, that God forgives us all through him.
Believing in CHRIST is ALL ABOUT BELIEVING IN GOD’S ANOINTING SPIRIT and then desiring for that Spirit to be ALL IN US, desiring to be joint heirs with Jesus obtaining that Spirit to a measure that influences us causing righteousness in us.
Believing in Christ is not about believing that God forgives us of our sins because he sent some spirit son to become flesh to die for us. I am so sick and tired of hearing those completely useless vain words.
Believing in Christ is about believing that God forgives us of our sins because he perfected a human being by the works of His Spirit, and as all were made like Adam all are to be made as Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:1 0 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
If the knowledge of Christ, a man anointed with the Spirit where God was all in him causing righteousness, is in your mind, then you know that your body is dead because of sin, you know that man can do nothing of himself, that there is no good in man, IT IS ONLY BY THAT Spirit that is in Jesus that we have life instead of death, because that Spirit is more powerful than any other influence, that Spirit causes righteousness whereby we are then worthy of life.
This is why Jesus told our heavenly Father to forgive them for they knew not what they were doing. Jesus knew full well that they were incapable themselves to do any good, as he himself knew that he only did good works because God’s Spirit that was in him was a more powerful influence over him than any and all other influences.
Once again. Using scriptures to disprove others.
Everyone here acknowledges that there are things we cannot do. We cannot choose to do anything. I can’t choose to fly to China at this moment. I can’t move the moon even one inch. And I can’t travel back in time.
But I have free will which means of the things that God has given me responsibility for, I sure can choose. I can choose between the flesh and the Spirit. I can choose to follow God. I can choose to read my Bible.
Free will is not the God like ability to do anything at anytime. It is the ability to make choices that determine my character and ultimately if I belong to God or not.
Jodi, do you also hold to the Doctrine of Free Captive Will?
Gene does. Let that sink in for a moment. Free-captive.
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