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Quote (Rena @ June 30 2011,17:02) Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2011,16:26) I admit I have not read the commentaries on Isaiah 66 but I do like to compare scriptures to one another and Isaiah 66:22-24 is a summary of the same message foretold in Revelations 21-22. Gehenna was a trashpit outside of the city of Jerusalem and the worms burrowed through the rotten garbage that was also on fire. Thus you have a discription of Gehenna, i.e. the lake of fire, in Isaiah 66:23 of the flesh of the wicked burning eternally and being burrowed through buy immortal worms.
From that I do not see how one would get that Revelations 21-22 speak of the present.
Quote Isaiah 66 King James Version (KJV)
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Kerwin,I still believe Isaiah 66 is talking about now, not eternity,.
Verses 18 – 23…. The gospel is sent out to all the world, to nations that have never heard, even to the coastlands far off. And some will go to Jerusalem, which happens today – from all nations. (but remember too – Jesus said, that in no particular place will God be worshipped, but – spirit and truth).
Verse 24…. could have different meanings.
Rena,Could you please let me know what book and chapter you are citing as you seem to be using a version unfamiliar to my search methods. If you could also include the version it would aid me. Thank you.
As for Isaia 66, verse 19 covers the from time Jesus was conceived as a sign to the preaching of the gospel all nations but it is part of God's plan to call all his people of all nations and tongues to him at “Jerusalem” which is the what the Messianic Age, 1000 years, is about.
The calling is mentioned in verse 18.
I believe you agree that the good news is currently going out to all nations but the time has not yet come for all nations and tongues to be gathered to God. Those times too are foretold in Isaiah 66.
In verses 22 the new earth and the new heaven are mentioned and the lake of fire a synomyn for what occurs to those that transgressed against God as they are the wicked thrown into Gehenna.
Jesus quotes from verse 22 three times in the following teaching.
Quote Mark 9 King James Version (KJV)
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Hi Kerwin.
Quote Could you please let me know what book and chapter you are citing as you seem to be using a version unfamiliar to my search methods. If you could also include the version it would aid me. Thank you. I'm using my own Bible, the Revised Standard Edition, available online here:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/rsv/isaiah/66.html
For the past year, I'v relied on Internet Bibles. Now I'm opening up my own Bible, and theres something better with that.
The way I used to do things is, I read and understood, and I never cared much what anyone else thought things meant.
So I'm going back to that.
Quote As for Isaia 66, verse 19 covers the from time Jesus was conceived as a sign to the preaching of the gospel all nations but it is part of God's plan to call all his people of all nations and tongues to him at “Jerusalem” which is the what the Messianic Age, 1000 years, is about. When do you believe the '1000 years' is? Now or future?
Quote In verses 22 the new earth and the new heaven are mentioned and the lake of fire a synomyn for what occurs to those that transgressed against God as they are the wicked thrown into Gehenna. Verse 22 is about now, and also the gift of eternal life.
66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, says the LORD; so shall your descendants and your name remain.
66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.66:24 And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall
be an abhorrence to all flesh.”Quote Jesus quotes from verse 22 three times in the following teaching.
Mark 9King James Version (KJV)
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
A reminder of what will happen, the fire of the second death.
Thats how I'm seeing it anyway.
But I'm Amillenial.
66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, says the LORD.
Kerwin, further, I believe this is meaning 'all flesh' as in people of all nations – from new moon to new moon, and sabbath to sabbath, is obviously about today. From the spreading of the Gospel to all the world.
Rena,
The Messianic Age is an age of world wide peace when all human beings will obey God. It is a time when Satan will be imprisoned but not yet thrown into Gehenna.
The seeds of the Messianic Age were sowed by Jesus when he walked this eath andGod through him has been nuturing them even upto this day.
From what I understand the Messianic Age will preeceed the new heaven and new earth and the defat of sin and those that love sin will occure after it but before the earth and heaven becomming new.
I am not certain it will last a thousand years but I am convinced that Jesus will be a king in the seat of David and he has not yet come into that kingdom as yet as it is still in rebellion.
I am of the opinion the two witnessses will herald the transformation of the kingdom and the calling of God's people from among the nations as a gread persecution will be upon them in other nations.
I cannot vouch for any of this as I am still learning.
I believe the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are synomonous and so both the new heaven and the new earth are part of the kingdom of heave as heaven is the throne of God.
As I pointed out a body of flesh and blood can exist in the third heaven. That point is not debatable though people choose to debate it.
No one has choosen to address that particular point in my initial post as far as I know.
I seem to be gettin wordy tonight so I believe it is best to stop at this time and perhaps address more of what you wrote later.
Kerwin,
Im probably going way off topic. So what ill do – is leave it for now, and if your ever interested, theres a thread on the rapture and the millenium here;
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3729
Ok?
Rena: You are closing in on truth your own way. That is great! One of the great timing keys of Gods plan is Jesus saying that the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist. Luke 16:16! Another timing key is the geneology in Matt. and Mark. All the generations recognized were up to Christ Jesus. Also when you read about the two witnesses that could very well be John the Baptist and Jesus.
Just some thoughts.
The interpretation of Daniels vision after the fall of the great powers there were ten kingdoms and AT THE TIME OF THOSE KINGS God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. That also is the time of the arrival of Jesus. IMO, TKTim, I dont know if you realise, but I used to post as shimmer and karmarie. I had a (complicated) problem with logging in, and changed my username to Rena. I was just able to log in again as shimmer, so will carry on using it cause I prefer it rather than my real name for some reason. Anyway, I notice – Tim, that when I post as shimmer, you ignore me. Am I imagining it or not? When I post as Rena or karmarie, you talk to me. If theres a problem, then please tell me, maybe it was something I said without realising? Tell me by private message – not here. I'm probably just imagining it, but thought I'd ask just in case.
Now what I find interesting about your last post, is I also had the idea that the two witnesses in revelation could be Jesus and John. It just seemed to fit.
So thats interesting. (Rena).
Quote (Pastry @ June 29 2011,22:26) Hi Shimmer! If the dead know nothing which Scriptures say, then Rev. 21=22 has not been taken place yet. However you are right, it will happen one day. Before then Jesus will come again to smite the nations with the wrath of God. Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Also there is a Scripture that says that there is no one in Heaven, and seen God, only He that came from Heaven
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Then Jesus will give the Kingdom back to Almighty God.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
After all this has happened, then God Himself will come down with the New Jerusalem and will dwell with men. Only the Saints will be able to be in the New Jerusalem with God and Jesus….. The meek will inherit the earth.
Whether Christ is preparing His Saints right now, I don't know a Scripture for it, do you?
Peace Irene
Shimmer! Did you look at these Scriptures? You have not answered ths post yet…..Peace and love IreneHello Irene. How are you?
Sorry I forgot to get back to you on that.You can read about some of my view here.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=3729
But I'm still learning.
Peace and love to you Irene.
Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2011,16:02) Quote 2 Corinthians 12:2 (King James Version (KJV)) 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
I hear of people who confidently state that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven and yet Scripture, which cannot be broken, clearly states that one who’s body is flesh and blood can enter heaven. It stated that because if flesh and blood could not enter heaven it would simply state, either explicitly or by context, that the man of Christ was snatched up into the third heaven in an out of body experience since there would be no question. Therefore to state otherwise is to argue with scripture.
Those that believe scripture often misunderstand the words “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” from 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Quote There are several points •There is no word “all” or “some” in the scripture and thus they must be gleaned from either the written or unwritten context of the scripture.
•The scripture does not state “enter” but rather it states “inherit”.
•The scripture does not state “heaven” but rather it states “kingdom of God. The kingdom of God includes, but is not limited to, both the new heaven and the new earth.So what we have is that {All / Some) flesh and blood cannot come into possession of the God’s reign.
Kerwin,Maybe the passage in the parenthesis will clarify the meaning of the statement.
Whether in the body, or not in the body.
Paul received revelation about the third heavens and earth.
Kerwn
Jer 33:25 This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth,
1Ki 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
1Ki 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
So flesh and blood as been created to live on earth according to the laws God as established,so we as men can not go to heaven ,other reason we are sinners and corruptible
so to become pure we have to change,and become holy ,this is what the aposteles did ,and the 144k and anyone who s looking to live in Gods kingdom on earth or in heaven
Pierre
Quote (shimmer @ July 02 2011,16:03) But thats off topic, sorry Kerwin.
I don't mind communications between members in most threads including this one as it gives members an opportunity to show love for one another.Quote (barley @ July 02 2011,23:44) Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2011,16:02) Quote 2 Corinthians 12:2 (King James Version (KJV)) 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
I hear of people who confidently state that flesh and blood cannot enter heaven and yet Scripture, which cannot be broken, clearly states that one who’s body is flesh and blood can enter heaven. It stated that because if flesh and blood could not enter heaven it would simply state, either explicitly or by context, that the man of Christ was snatched up into the third heaven in an out of body experience since there would be no question. Therefore to state otherwise is to argue with scripture.
Those that believe scripture often misunderstand the words “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” from 1 Corinthians 15:50.
Quote There are several points •There is no word “all” or “some” in the scripture and thus they must be gleaned from either the written or unwritten context of the scripture.
•The scripture does not state “enter” but rather it states “inherit”.
•The scripture does not state “heaven” but rather it states “kingdom of God. The kingdom of God includes, but is not limited to, both the new heaven and the new earth.So what we have is that {All / Some) flesh and blood cannot come into possession of the God’s reign.
Kerwin,Maybe the passage in the parenthesis will clarify the meaning of the statement.
Whether in the body, or not in the body.
Paul received revelation about the third heavens and earth.
Barley,I believe that the part in parenthesis is key to understanding if a human body can enter heaven or not since if Paul knew a human body could not then he would not have written that statement.
I am glad you brought up that point.
Quote (terraricca @ July 04 2011,11:21) Kerwn Jer 33:25 This is what the LORD says: ‘If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth,
1Ki 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
1Ki 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
So flesh and blood as been created to live on earth according to the laws God as established,so we as men can not go to heaven ,other reason we are sinners and corruptible
so to become pure we have to change,and become holy ,this is what the apostles did ,and the 144k and anyone who s looking to live in Gods kingdom on earth or in heaven
Pierre
Pierre,Though the Writings you have quoted seem clear to me, I fail to see the connections you have given to reach the conclusion that:
Quote So flesh and blood as been created to live on earth according to the laws God as established,so we as men can not go to heaven ,other reason we are sinners and corruptible In fact Ephesians 6:12 makes the point that “flesh and blood” is not the corruption we are to battle against but rather it is spiritual forces of evil in this current world.
Jesus states something similar in John 6:63 of the NIV with these words:
Quote 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. So I agree that we are called to be pure and holy as God is and he gives us the power to do it through faith in Jesus the Anointed.
I also see that when speaking spiritual words that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God as they count for nothing.
For all, this is an excerpt I wrote not long ago that some might find important. I desire your critique in this matter.
Two of the keys of understanding the Bible that are most necessary are the timing of spiritual events and spiritual application to what is being written. When Jesus speaks he speaks in parables & spirit words which create pictures and dreams in the heart/mind.
Jesus said at Luke 16:16, the law and the prophets were until John(the Baptist)…since then….the Kingdom of God is preached….! Until means up to the time of John the end! The prophets prophesied of the coming of Jesus. They did not say anything about Jesus coming back to earth after his ascension. Jesus said he would return, “again” which in(lit.grk)meant “in a new form” or what he earlier referred to as, “I will send “the comforter” and he will teach you all things.
This is a key of timing for Bible students. The genealogies at the very first of Matthew confirm that the end of “time” per God’s plan for mankind was when Jesus was born in the earth. Jesus ushered in the eternal spirit kingdom of God or God’s words of truth, spirit and life. The words of God are eternal so that was considered the end of time.
This was the greatest event on earth when the covenants changed from the old testament, physical, brick and mortar temple buildings and man made rules, physical sacrifices, rituals, works and deeds, laws, and rules to attempt to please God. That was the old way that was passing as Jesus brought in a new way to God.
John prepared the peoples hearts for the truth from Jesus by effecting a Baptism of water. Water Baptism was not a ritual of the old testament so for me, I took it as a test or a symbolic ritual, painting a picture in their hearts of washing away all the old ways and beliefs. A cleansing of sorts for both the mind and body, making way for the greater truth coming of pure Gods/words/Spirit! John, in reference to Jesus teaching, said the spirit/words of God was a greater Baptism than his of water.
The implied plan of God was to wash them clean of the old attempted way to find and serve God so to usher in the new words of life. The new spirit words, creating a new spirit person of Gods spiritual making. A new spiritual/God creation by Gods spirit/words through Jesus. A new temple being built, not built with hands brick and mortar like the old one. A new temple made without hands, created through spirit from God. A perfect man, cleansed of all sin, made righteous and set free from all mans religious rules, regulations, things that bind and control. Faith in what God said, when accepted as final truth in a mans heart, creates the perfection and any/all requirements of man, for perfect union with God. These words were given by God through Jesus to mankind. A new creation in Christ Jesus and a new temple for God to dwell in. God/Jesus/Christ/ to enter as the words/spirit from God which fill the new temple(mankind) with God’s spirit/truth establishing the Kingdom of God within each individual, so to be ONE together for eternity.
Religion has duped many for thousands of years with man made doctrines that have fallen in time one by one. Placing the Kingdom of God off in to the future sometime means it will never happen! The future is never now! Gods truth is now, not the future. This is the day of the lord, now, each and every day. Here is an example of a doctrine being miss-aligned and taken from the now and sent to the future to never happen.
In Matt.24, the famous chapter of Jesus pronouncing what the world calls the end of the world war of “Armageddon”, let’s look a little closer to what he was actually saying.
Matt.24:1—He was departing from the temple his disciples came to him to point out all of the great buildings of the temple…. V2—Jesus said to them, “see ye not all these things(the temple buildings)? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be cast down. This was an obvious reference to an event that had not yet occurred. The actual temple in Jerusalem and all the great temple buildings were completely destroyed by Titus in approximately 70ad., some 37years later.It was then, the fulfillment of Jesus’ words to his disciples was physically manifested. After he had said this his disciples in V3 came to him on the mount of olives, which is across from the temple buildings and while looking at the temple said, when shall these things be (the destruction of the temple) and what shall be the sign of [your coming]lit.(these thing about to come to pass) and the end of this religious world order? Three questions were paramount,… when will be the destruction of the temple and buidings, what are the signs when this about to happen and is this the end(completion) of the Temple, Jewish, religious world order. This could more accurately be paraphrased today as,…..tell us when these awesome buildings will be destroyed which will destroy the Temple worship of the Jews & their religion. Also, what will be the signs when this is about to happen.
Jesus starts explaining many events that will happen before the temple will be torn down. Approximately 37years later. That’s a guess but it’s pretty close.
Now the other question, what will be the signs this is about to happen. He said don’t be deceived. The only reason they could have been deceived is if he was not going to be there with them to show them the way. Further speaking Jesus said, there will be wars and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, sorrows, pain, sorrows and suffering, during this waiting time until the temple is destroyed. He said to them standing there, whosoever shall endure unto the end (of the temple) shall be saved. The gospel was preached in all the world according to Paul at that time, and then came the END of the temple and the buildings around it. Complete devastation!
Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation (or that which makes desolate) get out of town. It will be bad news for all who remain. I believe the abomination which maketh desolate was the crucifying of the savior of the world by the highest religious order of the time. They might say they didn’t do it but they had Pilot sentence him to death. That abomination made desolate the temple made with hands. All life was gone, no spirit, no water from the words of God. Then at V34 the confirmation of timing is when Jesus says,….this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Then he says, as in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the son of man be. All the evil was removed from the earth in the days of Noah. The only left were the animals and Noah and his family. Now Jesus says, there will be two in the field working, one will be taken(evil one that believes he is evil, and sins and is bad) and one shall remain who has accepted his cleansing from Jesus and has faith to stand as pure, spotless, clean and righteous before God through the words of Jesus that did the work. Anyone truly searching for the truth of what God is saying and is willing to lay down mans doctrines of “flying” away, will find that a “meek” person is a person who is willing to do just that, hear God and not man!! The meek shall inherit the Earth, in it’s original fullness for they will cause God to be manifest in the Earth with them. My hope is that all read the scriptures with hearing ears and not preconceived ideas of what they are saying, trusting God, and you will know the truth!
As for flesh entering heaven Jesus made it perfectly clear when he took his body with him. He came back to earth about 6 or 7 times changing his bodies density as needed each time. When He manifested for his followers it was a fully dense manifestation. Then he transformed to a higher frequency and walked through the wall. Bless all, TK
TK
Then he says, as in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the son of man be. All the evil was removed from the earth in the days of Noah. The only left were the animals and Noah and his family. Now Jesus says, there will be two in the field working, one will be taken(evil one that believes he is evil, and sins and is bad) and one shall remain who has accepted his cleansing from Jesus and has faith to stand as pure,
read your bible because this is not presente as true,
Pierre
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