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Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 13 2010,23:23) All, sorry, I don't have time to answer right now, I will later, but what is this.. God sent his (spoken word) into the world through the man Christ Jesus
The word was God.
Trinitarian or non Trinitarian ?
Hi Shimmer,As Ed pointed out Greek doesn't have a word “of” so when you add the word as we would use it in English it woud be…
And the word was of God.
Which would agree with him being WITH God, as well as being the son of God.
If you try to say the Son = Father that would be illogical and physicall impossible not to mention a “Lie”.
The Professor
Quote (barley @ Aug. 13 2010,17:12) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 07 2010,14:22) Hi, Does it really matter if someone believes in the Trinity or not ?
A non Trinitarian would feel uncomfortable in a Church where people are worshipping Jesus, as there is little mention of God, or if God is mentioned I think most would be thinking of Jesus [Is that correct?] . To a Non Trinitarian they see Jesus as what He said He was, the Son of God, who prayed to the Father and told others to do the same. But these are just different perspectives. The fact is, whether Trinitarian or not, both are followers of Jesus. Both read the same book.
I go on another forum which has Trinitarians and non Trinitarians. The subject is prophecy. Everyone gets on just fine, well, as far as I've seen.
Is it not just a fact that we all see thing's differently ?
“Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”
“This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ”.
Shimmer,If Jesus Christ is God, then we have not been redeemed.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. I Corinthians 5:7b
John the Baptist declared the Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. John 1:29
Exodus states that the passover lamb was to be chosen out of the flock. Exodus 12:5.
God is not a member of the flock. Only a man can qualify as a lamb out of the flock of God. For the flock of God is made up of men.
If Jesus Christ was God, he would not qualify to be chosen out of the flock of men. Jesus Christ is that man without spot or blemish chosen out of mankind to be our passover.
In conclusion, if Jesus Christ is God, then we have not been redeemed.
It is that important.
barley
Hello Barley,Right on. And Jesus said when he preached that he came to the lost sheep of Israel….
Not too often did we see Jesus get mad but I remember when he tossed out the money changers and the venders in the Temple…did it really matter? Probably not but it irked his ire.
Trinitarians have to change the truth for a lie as the truth has been pointed out to them and they still reject it. Is God going to be pissed off for people willfully changing His word from the truth to a lie? You bet!
Will God be upset if you put another “god” before Him? It says He will be because that is breaking the First Commandment.
So you see, this “small” discrepancy of Jesus being made into a god when he isn't is a deception on such a grand scale as when Satan deceived Eve and she “bit” on the first lie Satan told her and we lost our bodies.
I believe that those who follow Jesus as God, contrary to what the Bible says, is in jeopardy of being a follower of Satan and not of the truth because they have voluntarily and willfully been deceived and the light is not in them.
1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ (anointed One from God)? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father (God) and the Son (sent from God).
If you believe John 1:1 that Word = God (Son = Father) you are denying the Father and the son, and you are making them one.
It really matters especially if a person is teaching these lies to another. It is one thing to allow yourself to be deceived, it is another to teach these lies to another…..a teacher has greater accountability.
Good night.
The Professor
AMEN SeekingTruth, that is how I see it as well. Thank you for that verse.
Marty, We are in this world, We are one in Christ, May we all meet up one day,
Lightenup, thank you. God is good.
————————————–
David, Barley and Martian, viewing Christ as a man who could have sinned but overcame, I agree. How does this fit in with your views,
God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, the man Christ Jesus taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Is this Trinitarian or non Trinitarian, where does it fit ?
————————–Mike, Its how I was reading thing's up there ? You're getting me worried you know.
Yes. I agree. I feel that love too. I just had never experienced answer's and cried IN TOWN like that! ha,Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 11 2010,23:53) Hi Lightenup,
This is the post I just prepared for Marty and I just read your post so I will address it to both of you.Marty,
In the Born or begotten thread, theres more to what I said, They are saying God has a body with reproductive organs and everything, that God actually gave birth to God as another God who then became Jesus, all kinds of things, I was so confused, something just didnt feel right and I didnt know why I was feeling like this. I prayed last night about it, and today I felt such a huge relief, I know to stay away from that, I spoke with my Mother on the phone and she said that was silly, God is Spirit, it's saying things which are no-where in scripture. (And she is a Trinitarian) I met her later in town and we went into the Christian bookshop, She is friends with the man in there, and I saw a DVD, the movie of the book of John, I brought it and I felt like crying for some strange reason. I think it was the picture on the cover plus the atmosphere of the shop and the people I know in there. As we walked down the road I did too, as we went for lunch and I waited for her at the table, I watched people walking past the cafeteria window and the clearest words came into my mind…..God is love…..I was so overwhelmed at this simple truth I started crying (Its not something I would usually do !) I felt God working with me today.
Just thought I would share that, and yes – I now agree it is important what we teach or believe in.
Hi Shimmer,
I appreciate that you are just trying to help Mike and I as you claimed in the Born and Begotten thread. But why just Mike and I? Don't you care about the others here that wouldn't agree with your trinitarian mom? Maybe you should ask her what her opinion is of Jesus not being God but just a man, or just an angel that took over Satan's place when he blew it, or Jesus becoming a Son of God in Mary and not being the Son from eternity. Or do you think she is fine with all of that? So, maybe you can be the one that sets us all straight because you know what straight is apparently, ok Shimmer.Go for it!
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 13 2010,22:15) AMEN SeekingTruth, that is how I see it as well. Thank you for that verse. Marty, We are in this world, We are one in Christ, May we all meet up one day,
Lightenup, thank you. God is good.
————————————–
David, Barley and Martian, viewing Christ as a man who could have sinned but overcame, I agree. How does this fit in with your views,
God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, the man Christ Jesus taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Is this Trinitarian or non Trinitarian, where does it fit ?
————————–Mike, Its how I was reading thing's up there ? You're getting me worried you know.
Yes. I agree. I feel that love too. I just had never experienced answer's and cried IN TOWN like that! ha,Shimmer,
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ,
You stated: “God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him.”
More accurately, Jesus Christ spoke the words that God gave him to speak. God revealed to Jesus Christ what to do and what to speak, as God saw fit to do so. Jesus Christ obediently carried out what God revealed to him to do.
I have trouble with the using the phrase God did something “through” someone. In some ways of understanding, this might imply to some people that Jesus Christ had no choice in the matter. As if Jesus Christ was a megaphone that God spoke through. Does God speak through you or me when we share scripture? No. We decide to speak what God's word teaches. God may energize us or work in us Philippians 2:13, but we choose, we decide, when and where and what and why and how to speak.
Your description is scriptural, therefore, non-trinitarian.
barley
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 14 2010,08:39) Shimmer, Thank you! It is my hope the Spirit of Christ speaks through me.
God bless you Kerwin
I have seen it.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2010,16:04) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 11 2010,23:53) Hi Lightenup,
This is the post I just prepared for Marty and I just read your post so I will address it to both of you.Marty,
In the Born or begotten thread, theres more to what I said, They are saying God has a body with reproductive organs and everything, that God actually gave birth to God as another God who then became Jesus, all kinds of things, I was so confused, something just didnt feel right and I didnt know why I was feeling like this. I prayed last night about it, and today I felt such a huge relief, I know to stay away from that, I spoke with my Mother on the phone and she said that was silly, God is Spirit, it's saying things which are no-where in scripture. (And she is a Trinitarian) I met her later in town and we went into the Christian bookshop, She is friends with the man in there, and I saw a DVD, the movie of the book of John, I brought it and I felt like crying for some strange reason. I think it was the picture on the cover plus the atmosphere of the shop and the people I know in there. As we walked down the road I did too, as we went for lunch and I waited for her at the table, I watched people walking past the cafeteria window and the clearest words came into my mind…..God is love…..I was so overwhelmed at this simple truth I started crying (Its not something I would usually do !) I felt God working with me today.
Just thought I would share that, and yes – I now agree it is important what we teach or believe in.
Hi Shimmer,
I appreciate that you are just trying to help Mike and I as you claimed in the Born and Begotten thread. But why just Mike and I? Don't you care about the others here that wouldn't agree with your trinitarian mom? Maybe you should ask her what her opinion is of Jesus not being God but just a man, or just an angel that took over Satan's place when he blew it, or Jesus becoming a Son of God in Mary and not being the Son from eternity. Or do you think she is fine with all of that? So, maybe you can be the one that sets us all straight because you know what straight is apparently, ok Shimmer.Go for it!
Lightenup, sorry, it was just foreign to me, I had never heard that before, as I said, Trinitarians, Oneness believers, or anything like that don't worry me at all, to me they are all various forms of Christianity, each person at a different level of understanding. I am only learning myself, So please forgive me for judging what you were writing, Blessings Lightenup.Quote (barley @ Aug. 15 2010,17:39) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 13 2010,22:15) AMEN SeekingTruth, that is how I see it as well. Thank you for that verse. Marty, We are in this world, We are one in Christ, May we all meet up one day,
Lightenup, thank you. God is good.
————————————–
David, Barley and Martian, viewing Christ as a man who could have sinned but overcame, I agree. How does this fit in with your views,
God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, the man Christ Jesus taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Is this Trinitarian or non Trinitarian, where does it fit ?
————————–Mike, Its how I was reading thing's up there ? You're getting me worried you know.
Yes. I agree. I feel that love too. I just had never experienced answer's and cried IN TOWN like that! ha,Shimmer,
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ,
You stated: “God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him.”
More accurately, Jesus Christ spoke the words that God gave him to speak. God revealed to Jesus Christ what to do and what to speak, as God saw fit to do so. Jesus Christ obediently carried out what God revealed to him to do.
I have trouble with the using the phrase God did something “through” someone. In some ways of understanding, this might imply to some people that Jesus Christ had no choice in the matter. As if Jesus Christ was a megaphone that God spoke through. Does God speak through you or me when we share scripture? No. We decide to speak what God's word teaches. God may energize us or work in us Philippians 2:13, but we choose, we decide, when and where and what and why and how to speak.
Your description is scriptural, therefore, non-trinitarian.
barley
Barley,Thank you. And thanks, I was curious if how I now see things was Trinitarian. I don't know where it's heading because I know things take time.
Where I think I would disagree with you, is , I believe the word of God was IN Jesus. I believe the word of God is part of God.
Shimmer,
Have you been Ice skating?
You know how when you do, your left leg slides to the left a little, then your right leg slides to the right a little, and by this you move forward in a 'straight' line?
Right now, you appear to be sliding a liitle to much to the left…God is not composed of 'Parts'. This is a dangerous thought to nurture. Or perhaps it's not what you meant.
The 'word' of God 'is' God. Do we not use the term, 'You areas good as your word', meaning, 'what you say is what you mean..is what you are'?
If my 'word' is false, then I AM a liar.
If my 'word' is truthful and honest, then I am righteous.Therefore, God is [as] his Word, truthful, righteous, honest, impartial, loving, creative, industrious, forgiving, nuturing, admonistrive, wise, fearful…
All these were embodied in he who became Christ. The embodiment of what God is, the embodiment of the Word of God, so much so that he could be called, literally, 'the Word' of God.I wrote in another thread concering 'to whom the word of God came', did preJesus literally come to them? No, the 'word' of God came to them. But now, in the new testament age, the 'Word' of God came by the personification of the person called 'Jesus' and 'the Christ', Jesus, the Christ. It wasn't, 'a part of God' that came..or maybe just your wording, eh?
Slide to the right a little.
Good post though, and you are heading in the right direction.
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 13 2010,16:04) Quote (barley @ Aug. 13 2010,17:12) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 07 2010,14:22) Hi, Does it really matter if someone believes in the Trinity or not ?
A non Trinitarian would feel uncomfortable in a Church where people are worshipping Jesus, as there is little mention of God, or if God is mentioned I think most would be thinking of Jesus [Is that correct?] . To a Non Trinitarian they see Jesus as what He said He was, the Son of God, who prayed to the Father and told others to do the same. But these are just different perspectives. The fact is, whether Trinitarian or not, both are followers of Jesus. Both read the same book.
I go on another forum which has Trinitarians and non Trinitarians. The subject is prophecy. Everyone gets on just fine, well, as far as I've seen.
Is it not just a fact that we all see thing's differently ?
“Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”
“This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ”.
Shimmer,If Jesus Christ is God, then we have not been redeemed.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us. I Corinthians 5:7b
John the Baptist declared the Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. John 1:29
Exodus states that the passover lamb was to be chosen out of the flock. Exodus 12:5.
God is not a member of the flock. Only a man can qualify as a lamb out of the flock of God. For the flock of God is made up of men.
If Jesus Christ was God, he would not qualify to be chosen out of the flock of men. Jesus Christ is that man without spot or blemish chosen out of mankind to be our passover.
In conclusion, if Jesus Christ is God, then we have not been redeemed.
It is that important.
barley
Hello Barley,Right on. And Jesus said when he preached that he came to the lost sheep of Israel….
Not too often did we see Jesus get mad but I remember when he tossed out the money changers and the venders in the Temple…did it really matter? Probably not but it irked his ire.
Trinitarians have to change the truth for a lie as the truth has been pointed out to them and they still reject it. Is God going to be pissed off for people willfully changing His word from the truth to a lie? You bet!
Will God be upset if you put another “god” before Him? It says He will be because that is breaking the First Commandment.
So you see, this “small” discrepancy of Jesus being made into a god when he isn't is a deception on such a grand scale as when Satan deceived Eve and she “bit” on the first lie Satan told her and we lost our bodies.
I believe that those who follow Jesus as God, contrary to what the Bible says, is in jeopardy of being a follower of Satan and not of the truth because they have voluntarily and willfully been deceived and the light is not in them.
1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ (anointed One from God)? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father (God) and the Son (sent from God).
If you believe John 1:1 that Word = God (Son = Father) you are denying the Father and the son, and you are making them one.
It really matters especially if a person is teaching these lies to another. It is one thing to allow yourself to be deceived, it is another to teach these lies to another…..a teacher has greater accountability.
Good night.
The Professor
thanks,you, too.
barley
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 16 2010,02:58) Shimmer,
Have you been Ice skating?
You know how when you do, your left leg slides to the left a little, then your right leg slides to the right a little, and by this you move forward in a 'straight' line?
Right now, you appear to be sliding a liitle to much to the left…God is not composed of 'Parts'. This is a dangerous thought to nurture. Or perhaps it's not what you meant.
The 'word' of God 'is' God. Do we not use the term, 'You areas good as your word', meaning, 'what you say is what you mean..is what you are'?
If my 'word' is false, then I AM a liar.
If my 'word' is truthful and honest, then I am righteous.Therefore, God is [as] his Word, truthful, righteous, honest, impartial, loving, creative, industrious, forgiving, nuturing, admonistrive, wise, fearful…
All these were embodied in he who became Christ. The embodiment of what God is, the embodiment of the Word of God, so much so that he could be called, literally, 'the Word' of God.I wrote in another thread concering 'to whom the word of God came', did preJesus literally come to them? No, the 'word' of God came to them. But now, in the new testament age, the 'Word' of God came by the personification of the person called 'Jesus' and 'the Christ', Jesus, the Christ. It wasn't, 'a part of God' that came..or maybe just your wording, eh?
Slide to the right a little.
Good post though, and you are heading in the right direction.
JustAskin, I was just reading over some old writing's of yours which I had printed, and WOW I couldnt believe how good they were,Your right, I have been thinking all kind's of things, ok, I will 'get back to the right', thank you.
[couldnt log in for some reason, using the old name]
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,14:36) I think it matters Shimmer, because the first commandment matters.
If the Trinity violates the first commandment, then it violates the most important of the 10.
Then all of creation in Rev. 5 violated the fist commandment. And the twenty-four elders violated the first commandment when they fell down and worshiped Him who sat on the throne AND the Lamb (Rev. 5).Most anti-trinitarians here don't go to church to worship. So their talk about worshiping the only true God is just talk.
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 17 2010,11:34) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 10 2010,14:36) I think it matters Shimmer, because the first commandment matters.
If the Trinity violates the first commandment, then it violates the most important of the 10.
Then all of creation in Rev. 5 violated the fist commandment. And the twenty-four elders violated the first commandment when they fell down and worshiped Him who sat on the throne AND the Lamb (Rev. 5).Most anti-trinitarians here don't go to church to worship. So their talk about worshiping the only true God is just talk.
the Roo
Roo,If God commands us to worship His son is that breaking the 10 commandments?
The Professor
t8,
I agree, if the Trinity breaks the very first commandment they are doing exactly what Satan, and Adam and Eve did by making themselves out to be “god”. And they were punished.
Jesus never claimed to be God.
Satan and all of his demons claimed that Jesus was the “son of God”.But Satan wants us to believe that Jesus is God, why?
If someone follows a false god and worships a false god then they are not following Jesus or God, but a false god.
And Jesus put them in their place:
Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
I am surprised that the people that claim that Jesus is God can't see the difference between “son of God” and God, the son. Nor can they see that son cannot be God whom he came from.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
The Professor
DBF,
Why am I on you back tonight?
Where in Scriptures (There is none) does it say that God says for Mankind to worship God's Son.
I warrant you will not find a single scripture verse. Why? because God does not say it. Scriptures says “Praise, Honor and Glorify the Son”…”Worship God”, and again, “Honor the Son, Worship God”.
DBF, where are you getting these giant haystack ideas of yours from?
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 15 2010,21:33) Quote (barley @ Aug. 15 2010,17:39) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 13 2010,22:15) AMEN SeekingTruth, that is how I see it as well. Thank you for that verse. Marty, We are in this world, We are one in Christ, May we all meet up one day,
Lightenup, thank you. God is good.
————————————–
David, Barley and Martian, viewing Christ as a man who could have sinned but overcame, I agree. How does this fit in with your views,
God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, the man Christ Jesus taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Is this Trinitarian or non Trinitarian, where does it fit ?
————————–Mike, Its how I was reading thing's up there ? You're getting me worried you know.
Yes. I agree. I feel that love too. I just had never experienced answer's and cried IN TOWN like that! ha,Shimmer,
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ,
You stated: “God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own but his Father who spoke through Him.”
More accurately, Jesus Christ spoke the words that God gave him to speak. God revealed to Jesus Christ what to do and what to speak, as God saw fit to do so. Jesus Christ obediently carried out what God revealed to him to do.
I have trouble with the using the phrase God did something “through” someone. In some ways of understanding, this might imply to some people that Jesus Christ had no choice in the matter. As if Jesus Christ was a megaphone that God spoke through. Does God speak through you or me when we share scripture? No. We decide to speak what God's word teaches. God may energize us or work in us Philippians 2:13, but we choose, we decide, when and where and what and why and how to speak.
Your description is scriptural, therefore, non-trinitarian.
barley
Barley,Thank you. And thanks, I was curious if how I now see things was Trinitarian. I don't know where it's heading because I know things take time.
Where I think I would disagree with you, is , I believe the word of God was IN Jesus. I believe the word of God is part of God.
Shimmer,Looking up the word logos in a concordance is most enlightening.
Of over 200 uses, the vast majority of the uses fit the standard definition, “the thought behind the words used.” Rhema, a different word, refers to the words used.
Only in John 1 does some people try to make it mean a person. Certainly, I have no problem with the word becoming flesh. What is it saying? In John 1:1, God is highlighting the importance of his words, the thought behind the words used. God's words are important to Him, as a matter of fact. God's word is the greatest thing God ever did. He magnified it above His own name. Like a check, the word of God is only as good as the one signing it, underwriting it. Psalm 138:2 b. “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
God did a “show and tell” when He brought forth a son. The son clearly demonstrated God's word, Jesus Christ showed people what God's word is all about. On top of that, because of JC's precise knowledge of the meaning of the scriptures, not only could he show it perfectly, but teach it perfectly. He did the will of the Father. How did he know the will of the Father? He knows the word of the Father.
How wonderful it is that, to the degree and proportion that we know the word of God and believe it, we, too, can show the Father, just like JC, our older brother did.
barley
Hi:
The churches that teach the “trinity doctrine” tell me that unless I accept this doctrine or unless I by my signature on their statement of faith agree with the doctrine and the others that they list, I can't be a member of thier church, and I ask them “Is your church a different one than the Lord established”? When I confessed Jesus as my Lord, I became a member of his church and entered into a covenant relationship with God through my Lord Jesus who said to satan:
Quote Matthew 4:9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
There is no compromising the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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