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Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 29 2010,20:14) LU, Where does it say that 'Jesus' created the Angels?
Angels are ETERNAL – Angels do not die – are immortal Spirits.
Please show me otherwise (Please Don't try because You can't without being deceitful)
Angels are Spirit Sons of GOD – not Spirit Sons of Jesus. You surely must have read Job … and also in Genesis where the “Spirit Sons of God “made bodies for themselves and put themselves into them and procreated with human females.
LU, where does it say that Angels are Spirit Sons of Jesus? Or that 'Jesus Created them'.
What Scriptures says is that All things are sustained through Jesus – Are the Angels SUSTAINED through Jesus? or are they Spirits from God – as you say.
See, already what you say has fallen apart. Where does the Spirit go when a man dies – To Jesus or to God?
To who are the Spirits, Angels beholden Jesus or God? To God of course, else why would God say for them to do obesience to Jesus after he was raised to the heavenly throne and established as King over his fathers's kingdom for a period of time?Lu, please answer with Godly fear – Believe in God's retribution for wrongful fleshly responses – I don't want pointless answers that prolong frivolry…
JAshow me were it says that the angel are immortal??
Pierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 29 2010,13:54) But Mike, yet you rely so much on NetNanny… How many times have I said i used nothing but Scriptures… No WetNanny (or naughtier!) No Compedium, no Strongs Concordance, no First Century Fathers writings – and yet I trounce all of you (Holy Spirited boast – what ever!)
And here you are – at your wits end trying to claim that you only use “His inspired Words”…. Your own mega, many, varied and wildly ranging dissertations throughout this forum proves you are misjudged in your own appraisal of your belief.
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 28 2010,21:14) LU, Where does it say that 'Jesus' created the Angels?
Angels are ETERNAL – Angels do not die – are immortal Spirits.
Please show me otherwise (Please Don't try because You can't without being deceitful)
Angels are Spirit Sons of GOD – not Spirit Sons of Jesus. You surely must have read Job … and also in Genesis where the “Spirit Sons of God “made bodies for themselves and put themselves into them and procreated with human females.
LU, where does it say that Angels are Spirit Sons of Jesus? Or that 'Jesus Created them'.
What Scriptures says is that All things are sustained through Jesus – Are the Angels SUSTAINED through Jesus? or are they Spirits from God – as you say.
See, already what you say has fallen apart. Where does the Spirit go when a man dies – To Jesus or to God?
To who are the Spirits, Angels beholden Jesus or God? To God of course, else why would God say for them to do obesience to Jesus after he was raised to the heavenly throne and established as King over his fathers's kingdom for a period of time?Lu, please answer with Godly fear – Believe in God's retribution for wrongful fleshly responses – I don't want pointless answers that prolong frivolry…
JA, If you made use of study materials you wouldn't have to ask me, you could do your own study But since you don't use any study tools I'll accommodate you.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. ©NET
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
148:1 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the sky! Praise him in the heavens! 2 Praise him, all his angels! Praise him, all his heavenly assembly! 3 Praise him, O sun and moon! Praise him, all you shiny stars! 4 Praise him, O highest heaven, and you waters above the sky! 5 Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he gave the command and they came into existence. ©NET
You are right in that angels do not die and they are spirit beings.
As you can see in Col 1, the Son holds the angels together.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 29 2010,22:53) Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 28 2010,21:14) LU, Where does it say that 'Jesus' created the Angels?
Angels are ETERNAL – Angels do not die – are immortal Spirits.
Please show me otherwise (Please Don't try because You can't without being deceitful)
Angels are Spirit Sons of GOD – not Spirit Sons of Jesus. You surely must have read Job … and also in Genesis where the “Spirit Sons of God “made bodies for themselves and put themselves into them and procreated with human females.
LU, where does it say that Angels are Spirit Sons of Jesus? Or that 'Jesus Created them'.
What Scriptures says is that All things are sustained through Jesus – Are the Angels SUSTAINED through Jesus? or are they Spirits from God – as you say.
See, already what you say has fallen apart. Where does the Spirit go when a man dies – To Jesus or to God?
To who are the Spirits, Angels beholden Jesus or God? To God of course, else why would God say for them to do obesience to Jesus after he was raised to the heavenly throne and established as King over his fathers's kingdom for a period of time?Lu, please answer with Godly fear – Believe in God's retribution for wrongful fleshly responses – I don't want pointless answers that prolong frivolry…
JA, If you made use of study materials you wouldn't have to ask me, you could do your own study But since you don't use any study tools I'll accommodate you.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. ©NET
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
148:1 Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the sky! Praise him in the heavens! 2 Praise him, all his angels! Praise him, all his heavenly assembly! 3 Praise him, O sun and moon! Praise him, all you shiny stars! 4 Praise him, O highest heaven, and you waters above the sky! 5 Let them praise the name of the Lord, for he gave the command and they came into existence. ©NET
You are right in that angels do not die and they are spirit beings.
As you can see in Col 1, the Son holds the angels together.
Kathyyou say;You are right in that angels do not die and they are spirit beings.
this does not make them immortal like JA says.
and as you say it also does not prevent them to be destroyed.
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2010,21:03) That's it?!?! Really guys? Personal attacks of me, but not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURALLY BACKED REBUTTAL? We have the brain trust in agreement that if it says “this day” it must be a literal day, but if it says “day of antiquity” then it isn't literal…….but nothing to actually back that up.
I wonder if it says “bad day” it must be a literal day, but if it says “good day”, it can be figurative.
Hi AllWhat we have here is a total misrepresentation of the scriptures and a denial of the fact that the word structure in Micah 5:2 and Psalms 2:7 are completely different and do not even relate.
Hebrew Text for Micah 5:2…
Beyth Lechem 'Ephraath tsa`iyr 'eleph Yĕhuwdah yatsa' mashal Yisra'el mowtsa'ah qedem yowm owlamSo let’s look at these three words “qedem, yowm and owlam” and their meanings.
- qedem Strong's H6924 –which can be translated;
1) east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
a) front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
b) ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
c) anciently, of old (adverb)
d) beginning
e) east- yowm Strong's H3117 – which can be translated;
1) day, time, year
a) day (as opposed to night)
b) day (24 hour period)
1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2) as a division of time
a) a working day, a day's journey
c) days, lifetime (pl.)
d) time, period (general)
e) year
f) temporal references
1) today
2) yesterday
3) tomorrow- `owlam Strong's H5769 – which can be translated;
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternityNow let’s go back to the Hebrew Text of Micah 5:2…
Beyth Lechem 'Ephraath tsa`iyr 'eleph Yĕhuwdah yatsa' mashal Yisra'el mowtsa'ah qedem yowm owlam
As you can see the Hebrew words “qedem” and “owlam” can also be translated “antiquity (days of old)” and “ancient times” whereas Strongs definition for “yowm” does not include “antiquity (days of old)” or “ancient times” as one of the possibilities for translation.
Now let’s find some scriptures with the same format as Micah 5:2 and its use of the word “ yowm” for days connected with the words “qedem” and “owlam”.
Days of old (yowm owlam)
Remember the days of old (yowm owlam)… Deut 32:7
and carried them all the days of old (yowm owlam)…Isa 63:9
Then he remembered the days of old (yowm owlam)…Isa 63:11
and I will build it as in the days of old (yowm owlam)…Amos 9:11
let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old (yowm owlam)…Micah 7:14
pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old (yowm owlam)…Mal 3:4
Days of old (yowm qedem)
that she had in the days of old (yowm qedem)…Lam 1:7
it shall be inhabited, as in the days of old (yowm qedem)…Jer 46:26
I remember the days of old (yowm qedem)…Pss 143:5
I have considered the days of old (yowm qedem)…Pss 77:5
that he had commanded in the days of old (yowm qedem)…Lam 2:17
hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old (yowm qedem)…Micah 7:20
I have done it, and of ancient times (qedem yowm) that I have formed it…2 Kings 19:25
Ancient Times (owlam, qedem yowm, qedem
the years of ancient times (owlam) …Pss 77:5
I have done it; and of ancient times (qedem yowm)…Isa 37:26
and from ancient times (qedem)…Isa 46:10
In the above examples, which is exhaustive in the AV by the way, the Hebrew word “yowm” for days connected with the Hebrew words “qedem” and “owlam” resulted in the translation of the verses as being “days of old” or “ancient times”.
Now let’s look at the Hebrew Text for Psalms 2:7 and see if we find the same thing…
Hebrew Text for Psalms 2:7…
Caphar choq Yĕhovah 'amar ben yowm yalad
Notice everyone that the words “qedem” or “owlam” are not connected with the word “yowm” for days and are not even in the verse. And in fact Micah 5:2 it is a double whammy because “ yowm” for days is sandwiched between both of the words “qedem” and “owlam”.
Someone please tell me how you can take the leap and say that Psalms 2:7 should be translated “Thou art my Son; “in ancient times” I have I begotten thee, or “in days of old” I have begotten thee, or in “days of eternity” I have begotten thee, seeing that neither the word “qedem” or “owlam” is in the text?
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY (not yowm qedem or yowm owlam)” have I begotten thee. Pss 2:6, 7
The context clearly bears out that on a particular day after he was set on his Holy hill the decree was made “Thou art my Son; “THIS DAY (yowm)” have I begotten thee.”
I might also mention that none of the Hebrew forms where “yowm” is connected with “qedem” or ‘owlam” even gives a hint that “days of old” “or ancient times” were days before the “FIRST DAY” IN Gen 1:5.
That should be enough scriptural proof to destroy the notion that Psalms 2:6, 7 could be interpreted as Jesus was a god born or created from God before the ages, but for some who may stick their head in the sand, I doubt it.
Enjoy!
WJ
Pierre, brother,
Immortal…are spirits born?
Do spirits 'grow'?
Do spirits age?
Do spirits die?The answer to all those questions is 'No'.
Terra, you rightly say they don't die and you rightly say they can be destroyed.
This is exactly right.
Spirits do not die…are immortal, 'not subject to death'..but they can be 'destroyed', cease to exist.
Anything that came into being can be 'uncame'.
The spirit of man is immortal, it is the flesh that dies. The immortal spirit returns to God on the death of the flesh.
This is the 'lie' that the Serpent told Eve. He told her that they 'would not die'…their spirit would not die, but he didn't tell them that the flesh would. Here is wisdom: A good 'lie' always contains a huge amount of Truth…
LU,
It is as I thought.There is nothing in what you wrote that in anyway refutes what I have said.
Colossians? What do you see in Colossians that is refutical, so to speak?
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 29 2010,14:30) LU,
It is as I thought.There is nothing in what you wrote that in anyway refutes what I have said.
Colossians? What do you see in Colossians that is refutical, so to speak?
JA,
Seriously? Col 1:16-17 clearly tells you who created all things in heaven and on earth and that in that creator, all things hold together.So, there ya have your proof. Look it up, it's in the Bible
LU,
Is Jesus our Father?Colossians does not say that Jesus created the angels.
Re-read what it says: please… where does it say “Angels” – it does say what you say it says but that does not include LIFE forms – for ONLY God can do that and Spirits are LIFE forms.
Jesus was ONE of those LIFE forms – the most Righteous of those LIFE forms.
ArchAngel Gabriel “Stands in the presence of God” … before the throne of God.
Where was Jesus “the Lamb that was slain” standing as shown in Revelation – was it not 'Before the Throne of God' like the rest of the Archangels and Elders?Kathi – you wrote:
Quote Col 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.15 – Firstborn over [of?] creation – here we go again…
16 – Where is LIFE in that verse? t speaks only of SYSTEMS.
17 – Also speaks of SYSTEMSAre angels and Humans Systems?
How does Jesus Maintain the Angels (Give them a tune up – an oil bath – a Metal Polish rub down – battery refresh – New operating system – bioChemical upgrade – what, how?)
No kathi, SYSTEMS: world orders, Powers, thrones, principalities – Systems – not PEOPLE, Persons, Entities, Spirits, Kathi, Systems.
Kathi, Spirits come from God Almighty, YHVH.I see also that you only selected ONE point to counter – do you then agree the rest?
If Jesus created the Angels, then the Angels are the Sons and Daughters of Jesus.
And Human being s then are Sons and Daughters of Jesus.
Yet Scriptures says otherwise, Kathi.
Kathi… Draw a picture – please – draw a diagram – you will see that your theory doesn't fit. You would have to FORCE the pieces to breaking point and beyond to get even a close approximation to a fit.
Keith:
Quote Hi All What we have here is a total misrepresentation of the scriptures and a denial of the fact that the word structure in Micah 5:2 and Psalms 2:7 are completely different and do not even relate.
I will answer with the same post you supposedly “answered”:
Mike:Quote We have the brain trust in agreement that if it says “this day” it must be a literal day, but if it says “day of antiquity” then it isn't literal…….but nothing to actually back that up.
It is the same word “yowm” Keith. Listen very intently here:1. Micah 5:2 says that Jesus's beginning was from “DAYS of old”. Now you think that the word “day” here must be figuratively talking about some time period before God created actual days through His Son, right?
2. Psalm 2:7 says, “This 'day' I have begotten you.” My question is very simple:
Why couldn't the “DAY” God was speaking about in Psalms be the same exact figurative “day” that Micah was speaking about?
Can you give me any solid reason why it can't? You say it's because in God's first statement to His newly begotten Son, He didn't say “This 'day of old' I have begotten you.” Well, when He first said it, it wasn't a “day of old”, was it? When God originally said that to Jesus, it was in the “here and now” time frame. Then, when God inspired Micah to say it – maybe billions of years later – that same figurative “day” was by then a “day of old”.
Let's just go with what we KNOW, okay?
1. We KNOW Jesus was begotten by his Father.
2. We KNOW this had to be at sometime BEFORE his being raised from the dead, because Jesus told Nicodemus that God sent His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD.
3. We KNOW that by being begotten of God, Jesus became God's firstborn. And Paul speaks about Jesus' second coming by saying, “When He AGAIN brings His firstborn INTO THE WORLD…….”
4. We KNOW that Jesus is the Word who was made flesh, dwelled among us for a while, and had the glory of an only begotten son from a father. When did John first see this “glory” he spoke of? John 2:11 says it was when Jesus turned the water into wine:John 2:11 NIV
This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.All these things are things we KNOW Keith. They are in the scriptures for all to read and understand. Yet you cling to this:
Acts 13:32-33 NIV
32″We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” 'You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.'You ignore two important things about this passage, although I keep repeating them.
1. Paul said that what God had promised the forefathers was fulfilled by raising up Jesus. When did God EVER promise to someday appoint someone the metaphoric title of “only begotten Son”? That's right, NEVER. NETNotes has this to say on the matter:
This promise refers to the promise of a Savior through the seed (descendants) of David that is proclaimed as fulfilled (Rom 1:1-7).
So if the promise Paul speaks of is not the non-existent promise about appointing someone as a figurative “only begotten Son”, but instead the promise God made to deliver one through whom He would save us, then why Psalm 2:7?
Acts 9:20 NIV
[ Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem ] Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.He was quoting Psalm 2:7, NOT to specify any particular “day” that Jesus was begotten, but to let people know that this very same Jesus was the Son of God that was spoken of by God all those years ago in that Psalm.
That's it for now…..believe or don't. Right now, I'm more interested in seeing how Keith is going to explain Micah 5:4 in light of his stunning new revelation that 5:2 actually IS a Messianic prophecy.
peace and love,
mikeps Keith:
Quote I might also mention that none of the Hebrew forms where “yowm” is connected with “qedem” or ‘owlam” even gives a hint that “days of old” “or ancient times” were days before the “FIRST DAY” IN Gen 1:5.
Are you saying then that Jesus' beginning came AFTER the “FIRST DAY” in Gen 1:5? Or are you saying that Jesus had no “activity” whatsoever until AFTER the “FIRST DAY” in Gen 1:5?Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 29 2010,18:45) If Jesus created the Angels, then the Angels are the Sons and Daughters of Jesus. And Human being s then are Sons and Daughters of Jesus.
Yet Scriptures says otherwise, Kathi.
Kathi… Draw a picture – please – draw a diagram – you will see that your theory doesn't fit. You would have to FORCE the pieces to breaking point and beyond to get even a close approximation to a fit.
JA,
I am not aware of a father/child type of relationship between creator and angels, are you? Do they call their creator 'Father' or God?Anyway, there is no mention of the word 'systems' in Col 1:15-17, just 'all things' visible and invisible…are systems visible, JA?
John 5:26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
That is a tremendous statement JA, the Son has life in Himself just as the Father has life in Himself. “Just as” it says.
Mike,
I know you 'debating' this in open forum with WJ, but struth, brother…you are one tortured soul!
Do you sleep at night – are you 'dreaming' “This day” or “This night”?
Who started this “Begotten” thing anyway? Who is the Alpha for it – and who will be the Omega?
Mike, I'm not sure I'm understanding right: Please – What does Micah 5:2 say. Please, indulge me and write it so i know what is being talked about.
and Micah 5:4 – what does it say that is revelational? Please.LU,
You are a pointless poster. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about – I'm done with pointless arguments from you.
You have nothing to say and are posting nonesense just to say you posted something… that is not of any value to anyone – not even to yourself except to say there is no limit you won't go beyond to make a futile point.
Ok, I missed a point above.
What of my other questions. Why do you avoid them. Too hard? or maybe you realise that you are wrong – Can't answer – won't answer – have no answer – don't answer!
JA:
Quote and Micah 5:4 – what does it say that is revelational? Please.
Here, read if for yourself………….from a couple of days ago:Keith:
Quote I just realized that the verse is prophetic of the coming Messiah
Really Keith? You JUST realized that even though Matthew clearly says it is? No, it's more like, “I've just realized that I can stop denying Micah 5:2 is about Jesus like Jack did in the Plural God debate because I've found what I think is a way around the fact that it says my God #2 had a beginning.” Okay then……good for you brother! Now that you admit it's a Messianic prophecy, why don't you explain this part that clearly tells us that Jesus is someone other than God?
Micah 5:4 NIV
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.Who's “strength” will Jesus shepherd in? And in the “majesty” of who's name will he do it? Oh……it says right there – in the strength and majesty of the name of Jehovah…..HIS GOD!
That sounds remeniscent of another Messianic prophecy Keith.
Ez 34:23-24 NIV
23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.What's that? Jehovah will be “GOD”, and Jesus will be “prince”? Hmmmmm…….food for thought WJ.
What do you think JA? Don't you think that if Keith accepts Micah as a prophecy about Jesus, then he must also accept the fact that it clearly lists Jesus as someone other than God?
mike
JA to Mike:
Quote Mike, I know you 'debating' this in open forum with WJ, but struth, brother…you are one tortured soul!
JA to Kathi:
Quote LU, You are a pointless poster. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about – I'm done with pointless arguments from you.
Poor JA…….so many condescending judgements to pass – so little time.
If the cap fits.
Mike… I see you like wallowing in frivolry so this nonesense is right up your street. No you not lying Mike. What you said is true.
- qedem Strong's H6924 –which can be translated;
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