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LU,
Jesus did not have a depraved mind…not one little bit depraved. Man was not created with a depraved mind but man’s free will gave place to sin which brought the condition of a depraved mind to all mankind. This depraved condition is transferred to man by the father, not the mother, btw. Jesus was not conceived with the seed of man.
What you say is not written it is something who did not understand came up with to explain certain spiritual things.
Only those I call the wicked have a depraved mind as can be seen by this passage, Romans 1:28, and 1 Timothy 6:5.
2 Timothy 3:8New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
Jesus is not one of those men nor have I claimed he is so. I merely claimed that just Scripture tells those that have received the Spirit that they can either choose to live by the flesh or live by the Spirit, Jesus also had that same choice and continuously chose to live by the Spirit.
You may instead be speaking of those who do not have the Spirit even though I did not find a passage from any version that spoke of them as having a depraved mind and by inference Moses does not seem to have a depraved mind though he was conceived and died before the Spirit was given as the gift of the new covenant. Jesus does not fit that group either as God stated he placed his Spirit on him.
As for mankind they are in general called servants of sin and Jesus’ purpose was to set anyone that sins truly free from that servitude. The person who receives and learns to continually live by the Spirit only bears the fruits of the Spirit and so truly free. God chose Jesus to be an exception to rule for the same reason he chose Israel to be his people.
We inherit our servitude to sin because we are human beings. A clone of a human woman would be just as enslaved, even one made from the skin cell of a hermaphrodite.
LU,
Jesus was already the Son of God and someday He was to be acknowledged so by man. Man’s acknowledgement does not make Him the Son of God.
We sure do read the same words with a different perspective, kerwin!
Do you know any passage of Scripture that states that or is that hearsay?
What I know is Scripture declares that those that receive the Spirit are the the children of God and God spoke of his servant that he chose and put his Spirit on.
Demons would later call him the Son of God. Peter would later declare he was the Christ, the Son of God. Jews today call the Christ the Son of God and consider him to be a human being.
Regarding the depravity of all men:
*Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.*Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
*Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Romans 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
“THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”5But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world? 7But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Romans 3:10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
Kerwin, do you see that men are depraved, even from the womb.
More to come…
@kerwin
Regarding Jesus always being a Son of God even before creation:
I believe that this passage is talking about the person of Jesus and is symbolized as ‘wisdom.’ Something I believe that God showed me that has driven me into scriptures and changed my desire to study fervently was what happened to me when I asked God what was meant by the term ‘firstborn’ as it applied to the Son about 22 years ago. I believe He showed me that, yes, Jesus was really His offspring and that He existed and was brought forth on day one of the seven day week of creation. That ties in perfectly with Prov 8.
Prov 8
22“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.23“From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.24“When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.25“Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;26While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.27“When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,28When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,29When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;30Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,31Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.32“Now therefore, O sons, listen to me,
For blessed are they who keep my ways.33“Heed instruction and be wise,
And do not neglect it.34“Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at my doorposts.@NickHassan
The Word was a person, the person of Jesus.LU,
Regarding the depravity of all men:
*Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.Then you are speaking of those that are not living by the Spirit as those Isaiah spoke of were not under the new covenant that was not sealed until Jesus sealed it with. Such individuals are servants of sin and those among them that hunger and thirst for righteousness only could look forward to the Christ that truly deliver them from their bondage. For those that heard the gospel there is a better hope for Jesus cam to set his people truly free from sinning as anyone that sins is a servant of sin. The only question is why was Jesus an exception and received the Spirit before the new covenant and all I can say is God has mercy on who he has mercy and compassion on who he has compassion. In short Jesus is the one God chose to Messiah and God chose him for his own reasons.
Remember Moses was also a servant of sin and yet it was those that opposed him that God stated had depraved minds. So there was clearly a difference between individual even when each and every one was a servant to sin.
LU,
Proverbs 8 is a chapter about Wisdom who is personified as a female as you can see by a few verses.
Proverbs 8:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 Does not wisdom call,
And understanding [a]lift up her voice?
2 On top of the heights beside the way,
Where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 Beside the gates, at the opening to the city,
At the entrance of the doors, she cries out:
Footnotes:Proverbs 8:1 Lit give
Proverbs 8:11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 “For wisdom is better than [a]jewels;
And all desirable things cannot compare with her.
Footnotes:Proverbs 8:11 Lit corals
In addition we are told that by her kings reign and Jesus is the King.
Proverbs 8:15-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 “By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 “By me princes rule, and nobles,
All who judge rightly.Luke 7:34-35New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a [a]drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children.”
Wisdom is portrayed as speaking of herself and her words are:
Proverbs 8:30-31New American Standard Bible (NASB)
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
[a]Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.Jesus is the Son of man.
I have never said they are the same being. I have said they are the same type of being, eternal being. You misunderstand.
Believe me when I say that I expected you to say this.
So your God is two beings. So God cannot be called HE or HIM or I. Because God is two beings which is THEY. According to your theology, the son can be him/I and so can the Father, but God who is two beings to you cannot be “I”. He is THEY instead by reason of your doctrine.
Scripture supports Jesus, Peter and Paul’s and our view though. “You are the messiah and the son of God.” “For us there is one God the Father.” “That they know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom HE has sent.”
As I have always said to you, you break the first commandment and teach others to do so too. You know that the best case scenario for this is least in the Kingdom of Heaven and worse case is no salvation for unrepentant commandment breakers. I am not saying where you are but only showing you scripture which is designed to correct, rebuke, and confirm.
You gospel is not the gospel of the Kingdom nor the gospel of Christ. It is the gospel of Kathi, which is no gospel at all because it is not good news to declare two Gods and break the first commandment. There is one true God and no amount of Kathi reasoning is going to change this reality. Fighting reality means you will come off second best which is to say you will lose. Try fighting gravity for example and jump out of a plane without a parachute. Well that is silly right. But you fight one of the greatest truths there is. “There is one God.” Don’t take this all the way to the grave Kathi. Let it go for your own sake.
t8
There are two beings who are both called theos in scripture. They both have dominion over all created things for ever and ever. One is the Son of the other.If they were two different types of beings, they wouldn’t be father and son. The church is built on the truth that Jesus IS the Son. That is my belief also.
@kerwin
I believe we have gone over this. Once again, regarding gender of words whether Greek or Hebrew, the gender of words that have no obvious gender, like wisdom or head, are written as having gender. In Hebrew, nouns are either masculine or feminine. In Greek, nouns are either masculine or feminine or neuter. Wisdom is always a feminine noun in either language. The pronouns that represent the noun “wisdom” will be written with the feminine gender in the original language, no matter who wisdom is representing.For instance, the head of Christ is God. However, the noun ‘head’ is a feminine gendered word. The gender of the descriptive noun does not determine the gender of whom it is describing.
Understand?
@kerwin
Are you suggesting that once the new covenant was in place that mankind changed from depraved to righteous?Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
LU,
I understand that in both Hebrew and Koine Greek pronouns have gender that corresponds to the nouns they are replacing and therefore translators are the ones who determine the gender of what is being spoken about. The traditional translation is in the feminine and holds together with Jesus calling both himself and John her children in some of the original manuscripts version of Luke 7:34.
Proverbs 1:20 corresponds to Proverbs 8:1-4 and in another place the people are instructed to call Wisdom their sister.
Proverbs 7:4New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
And call understanding your intimate friend;The bottom line is that Jesus gives flesh to God’s Wisdom and Proverbs speaks much about Wisdom.
LU,
Are you suggesting that once the new covenant was in place that mankind changed from depraved to righteous?
No, I am saying that those human beings that are not under the new covenant are bound to their sinful nature though in their mind they may hunger and thirst to do all that is right. It is only under the new covenant that a human being can be freed from being a slave to their flesh as they have received the Holy Spirit by faith. To be truly freed as Jesus claims he will do for them they must learn to continually walk by the Spirit of God.
True Christians believe that since Jesus claims he will set those that believe truly free from their sinful nature that it is true and they also know that those who continually live by the Spirit are set free from following the dictates of the flesh.
John 8:31-36New American Standard Bible (NASB)
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Galatians 5:16-23New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh [a]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [c]immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [d]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
LU,
If they were two different types of beings, they wouldn’t be father and son. The church is built on the truth that Jesus IS the Son. That is my belief also.
So Christians are not God’s children because they are not theos and God is not their father because he is not a human being?
@kerwin
Regarding wisdom being the person of Jesus…Luke 11:49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’
1 Cor 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Luke 8:21 But he (Jesus) answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
Proverbs speaks of wisdom as coming from a person’s mother, father, and grandfather in some passages, as general common sense in other passages, and as wisdom of God in other passages. The person of Jesus is the wisdom of God that was possessed in Prov 8:22 from what I understand.
Regarding are Christians not children of God. Christians are children of God but not in the same sense as the person of Jesus who is a child and the only child.
LU,
Luke 11:49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’
Is a passage I have considered in this line of conversation but I already addressed 1 Cor 1:24 when I pointed out that Jesus is the Wisdom of God in the flesh. You already know I do not mean he is a person that is called Wisdom but that he is instead the vessel of God’s literal Wisdom.
LU,
Regarding are Christians not children of God. Christians are children of God but not in the same sense as the person of Jesus who is a child and the only child
Jesus was not adopted.
Nevertheless consider that Isaac who was Abraham’s second child is called Abraham’s one and only child in Scripture despite the fact that Ismael is also Abraham’s child. Scripture chooses the call Isaac the one and only child because Isaac is the child of the promise and Ismael, though his brother, is not.
Jesus is the Son of the promise made to David.
@kerwin
you said:You already know I do not mean he is a person that is called Wisdom but that he is instead the vessel of God’s literal Wisdom.
Yes, I am aware that you do not acknowledge Jesus to be the wisdom of Prov. 8 but that He represents God’s wisdom as a man. However, in the end of the book, He is worshiped as a person that, with another person, is acknowledged as having dominion over all creation for ever and ever.
If Jesus was just a man yet receives the same honor and glory that the Father is given, that seems to contradict what the Jehovah of the OT has said.
However, if the person of Jesus is and was the actual eternal offspring part of the Father, then it doesn’t contradict what the Jehovah of the OT has said.As I said before, the light of day one corresponds flawlessly with the wisdom of Prov. 8:22+. Jesus is the Light and Jesus is the wisdom.
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