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hi Kenrck
++”A simple car is by design but the most complex creation is an accident.
Please tell me what “accident” has to do with evolution by natural selection. There is a link, but be careful now! Do you actually know what you are talking about?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,14:25) hi Kenrck ++”A simple car is by design but the most complex creation is an accident.
Please tell me what “accident” has to do with evolution by natural selection. There is a link, but be careful now! Do you actually know what you are talking about?
Stuart
Gee Stu you are way to smart for me
. There is a spiritual world you know nothing about because you are too smart.1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Now remember Stu destroy those who destroy the earth.
I'll be around when you decide you want to talk.
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,14:25) hi Kenrck ++”A simple car is by design but the most complex creation is an accident.
Please tell me what “accident” has to do with evolution by natural selection. There is a link, but be careful now! Do you actually know what you are talking about?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Creation is an accident?
What an amazing combination of positive flukes caused a single celled organism.
Then the male and female thing?
Wow.
What faith!Hi Stu,
One of the popular myths is that NATURE is a positive nurturing force that maintains the stability of the universe and even encourages the higher development of living things.Nature is a constant negative and degrading influence generally.
Storms, volcanoes, floods, asteroid collisions, polar shifts and ice ages cause massive immediate loss of life and of species. They seem random and unavoidable. Even without them hundreds of species are being lost from earth each year with no obvious replacement new speciation apparent. Disease and chromosomal damage too destroy species far more often than advantaging them.
Yet some are believers that there has been sufficient constant positive influence to cause a single cellled organism to evolve through millions of varied new developments into a plethora of successful higher species forms filling every available niche on earth, but that takes takes some faith.
To believe that survival of the fittest and choice of the best mate overcomes all these strong and severe negative forces takes real blindness to history and faith in the observations and speculations of men, and in the measurements and the measures they use.
That is real faith in a force you say that does not even exist.
If you say nature is a positive force you are admitting the influence of a god.Kenrck,
You don't understand evolution yet you dismiss it out of hand.
All the biblical insults in the world won't help me to understand what you are saying.Stuart
Hi Nick
++”What an amazing combination of positive flukes caused a single celled organism. “
It certainly is amazing to me. I can speculate to some extent but I don’t know the answer to how the first single-cell organism arose. I would venture to suggest that you cannot tell me the detailed biochemistry of that event either, however it took place.
++”Then the male and female thing?”
This is again a field of enormous speculation among people who know about the contents of cells. It is well known that the mitochondria in our cells have their own DNA and reproduce in tandem with the host cell, and that this is the result of a bacterial cell invading another kind of cell and the two cells “discovering” an advantage in that symbiosis. (Mitochondria are the power stations of the cell). Our cells are like this. There is also some evidence that some bacteria routinely swap sections of their genomes between individuals. So you might guess that the speculation for the origins of sex (intermingling of DNA) is in this area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki….duction has some impressively big words on the subject. However vague the speculation is, it won’t be the Rabbinical council or the College of Cardinals or any other religious group that eventually gives us the answer.How about the biblical explanation? Tell us about ribs, Nick.
++”One of the popular myths is that NATURE is a positive nurturing force that maintains the stability of the universe and even encourages the higher development of living things.”
Are you talking here about the Gaia Hypothesis ? I’m not a fan of that myth. It suggests that evolution has a progression towards a goal, which it does not.
++”Storms, volcanoes, floods, asteroid collisions, polar shifts and ice ages causes massive immediate loss of life and of species. They seem random and unavoidable. “
Hold it right there. You mean these natural disasters are not punishments from the Impetuous One for our sins?
++”Even without them hundreds of species are being lost from earth each year with no obvious replacement new speciation apparent.”
We are certainly losing genetic diversity by extinction.
++” Disease and chromosomal damage too destroy species far more often than advantaging them.”
Rarely, disease can wipe out an entire species. Don’t forget that chromosomes can repair themselves. Can you name any species that has gone extinct because of chromosomal damage?
++”Yet some are believers that there has been sufficient constant positive influence to cause a single celled organism to evolve to become millions of varied new developments into a plethora of successful higher species forms filling every available niche on earth takes some faith.”
It is the damage done to the genome (mainly by natural radiation) that allows evolution. Mutations happen all the time, most are deleterious, and these may be repaired out of existence. An occasional mutation will result in a slight improvement in the usefulness of a protein in the current environment, and as it spreads through the population (of lemurs, bacteria, carrots, whatever) those who have the advantage will tend to be more successful at survival and reproduction. In this way that mutation gets to be more common than the older variations of the gene.
If the environment changes (ecological niche is too crowded, temperatures or ultraviolet levels change etc) those who have the most suited genes will survive and become the ancestors of like decendants.
No faith required. Just evidence, and there's plenty.++”To believe that survival of the fittest and choice of the best mate overcomes all these strong and severe negative forces takes real blindness to history and faith in the observations and speculations of men, and in the measurements and the measures they use.”
There have been at least 5 other major catastrophic events in Earth’s history (none of them a worldwide flood!), and each time it has been those who have managed to eke out a living in the changed environment that have prospered. Our ancestors 65 million years ago were shrew-like mammals that were able to survive the effects of the catastrophe that eliminated the dinosaurs. Don’t underestimate the power of sexual selection, either.
++”That is real faith in a force you say that does not even exist.
If you say nature is a positive force you are admitting the influence of a god.”I don’t know what “nature is a positive force” means, let alone believe in it.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Thank you.
Nothing but theories and hopeful speculation as you say has created a powerful worldwide religion.
The worship of guesswork science.Nick, that is low. You mock honesty without putting up a single intelligent alternative.
“Nothing but theories” displays ignorance about the scientific use of the word theory.
I don't recognise science as a religion. How is it so? Religions demand assent without evidence. They explain nothing that cannot be explained much more powerfully by empirical science.
Science demonstrably works, religion demonstrably doesn't.You misrepressent me and lie about what I write in order to produce a soundbite statement that summarises your prejudice, not my words.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
You have offered nothing seriously useful in support of your ideas.Speculations.
“It certainly is amazing to me. I can speculate to some extent but I don’t know the answer to how the first single-cell organism arose”“This is again a field of enormous speculation among people who know about the contents of cells.”
” However vague the speculation is, it won’t be the Rabbinical council or the College of Cardinals or any other religious group that eventually gives us the answer.”
You admit most mutations are useless but believe a few in some amazing sequences have explained all the species we see today.
“It is the damage done to the genome (mainly by natural radiation) that allows evolution. Mutations happen all the time, most are deleterious, and these may be repaired out of existence. An occasional mutation will result in a slight improvement in the usefulness of a protein in the current environment, and as it spreads through the population (of lemurs, bacteria, carrots, whatever) those who have the advantage will tend to be more successful at survival and reproduction. In this way that mutation gets to be more common than the older variations of the gene.”
Such faith in a formation of order from random flukes is simply stunning.
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,21:50) Tell us about Adam's rib, Nick. Stuart
Here's My science projectAdam was made in the Image of God
God was not born or made of a woman
Adam dose not have a mother to leave, as God dose nor have a mother?
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh
Eve, was turned from Adams rib to Adams wife, then to a mother of strange flesh, seduced by the serpent, in the Garden
Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
When the serpent took eves seed, he made himself joined flesh with Adam, by Adams flesh and bone wife, he began creating himself as a joint heritor of the creation to fill the earth, creeping creatures? Adam leaves the Garden, and knows his wife Eve, whom creates Cain, a son that shall leave his Mother for a wife, Cain is not made of the Image and likeness of Adam, but is a creation of the creation of female, made from Adams flesh and bone,.. whom Adam was made in Gods Image and likeness, containing eve
Gen 5:1 ¶ This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
That is….and Adam begat [a son] in his own likeness!a creation began and is rooted in the father devil and adam
All flesh is not the same How are we going to evolve these?1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,21:50) Tell us about Adam's rib, Nick. Stuart
Hi Stu,
You can find that yourself in Genesis.
As you say Mitochondria are amazing energy producers inside all cells and they just happened to be found formed at the same time as the cell wall, nuclei and those cute double helix chromosomes in the formation of the first cell which also had to be able to replicate lest this first fluke died out in it's inception. So chromosomal variations that might advance this proposed evolutionary process pale in significance to this previous event.
Scientists are helpful in revealing data and since Darwin hundreds even thousands of species have disappeared and not one new species has emerged to support the theory. Yet we are asked to believe it anyway as the alternative choice of a Creator is unbearable for most so “any port in a storm”The formula I suppose goes like this
Chaos X Randomness X millions of years =order and harmony.Do you really think we should believe it?
I would need your kind of faith.Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,22:40) Hi Charity Do you read Genesis as allegory or believe it to be literally true?
Stuart
Hi stuartTo ME The whole bible has literal meanings and also symbolic meanings, I don't feel to assume my self to either side of the spectrum, for God talks of the creation in many ways
Genesis I feel has been written from The secrets of Enoch, I received a better account of God thoughts, Nature and design from these writings, also in all, the understanding was without any conflict to the book of genesis, but never the less, I have never felt that I have been offered any passed on theory that would satisfy my desireTO understand
yet I am patient, very patient, as precept by precept, day by day.
If only faith, then its only all within us. Thanks stuartThat won't do, Nick. How did your creator actually assemble DNA? You don't know! How did he hold the organelles (whatever they were) in place while he added the cytoplasm and membranes? You've got not even intelligent speculation to offer. I did not say that mitochondria were present in the first cell, if you read what I wrote. You are suggesting that the first replicating chain of code was made of DNA. This is almost certainly not true, but you seem to know otherwise. That's mighty of you to admit that scientists are “helpful”. I don't think you would have a single clue unless it had been laid out before you as I have tried to do, for your mockery.
Do you know for certain that new species have not evolved since Darwin? If you have the misfortune to be hospitalised then at least you won't be worried about MRSA, as according to you there are no new species. How do you account for the billions of years-old ordered fossil sequence, the comparative DNA that exactly mirrors the fossil morphology, the appearance of new bacteria in response to the selection pressure of antibiotics or the constant stream of new, mutated cold and flu viruses? If you really believe that evolution is chaos, randomness and chance over millions of years then you are more in need of education than I thought. As I said much earlier, it is entirely your choice what you believe, but I'd counsel you against making your ignorance public, or misrepresenting what others have written. From your perspective I'm surprised you don't take the commandment about False Witness a bit more seriously. An eternity of toasting could await you!Stuart
Charity, can you tell me how you decide which bits of the bible are allegorical and which literal?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,19:49) Kenrck, You don't understand evolution yet you dismiss it out of hand.
All the biblical insults in the world won't help me to understand what you are saying.Stuart
Insult? I gave scripture that describes you and the world you are in. You walk solely according to the physical world don't you?Well this scripture fits:
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
Surely you are wise in the world~evolution~to the physical world ~man's teachings~ you must become a fool in order to walk in the spirit and be wise according to the Spirit. In other words you won't have it both ways. You can't know the supernatural while hanging on to the flesh. You have a spirit, feed it!
Since the ten Commandments and God have been taken out of schools in the U.S. moral decay has set in. Their is no respect for human life, Why? Because the young are taught they are just a form of higher animal. So why not if you have something I want I'll just take it from you YOU are just another animal like me so why not and if you get in my way I'll just blow you away, I'm just an animal, there is no creative force, no author of life, NO GOD!
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
Love for our fellow man has all but disappeared. You see life is nothing, you are nothing but an animal not much, indeed to some less than their dog.
In the U.S. children bring guns to school and threaten the teacher and fellow classmates, a number of school shootings has happened, oh well just animals!
But all these things are going to happen, it's been prophesied.
2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.Well I guess I'm stupid I never once in my life believed I was an ape. To the natural man who is evil by the above scriptures that WEREN'T written exactly yesterday it is foolishness, as you say a fairytale.
To those who know and love the LORD it is TRUTH and the future.
Those people in biblical times must have been closer to apes than you are today, right? OR has evolution just stopped?
Gee pretty smart apes I would think to know the future. Things that happen today OR the “last days”.
Seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened for you.
IHN&L,
Ken
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,23:41) Charity, can you tell me how you decide which bits of the bible are allegorical and which literal? Stuart
First up Stuart, for me Scripture must be alowed to condemn scripture
Intellect, wisdom and perception, for the tail tellers and accusers, that have been given power and authority by entry within the recorded ancient writings of prophecy and events in the HOLY bible…. by hearing the hearts of the authors, AND their missionS, the consistency of the context, For me to even begin to take on their vision or word as that of Gods will and a truthful report.
After all christ turned up in a world that had made Moses Laws the goverment of the earth, In which they were never delivered to be used in that manner.stuart
How do you perceive this verse from preserved scrolls writings from BC where Apes are being transported by Humans or other more superior apes?
Did not all evolve?1Ki 10:22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
Is their sience evendence to support Humans and apes exsisting together on earth?
Hi Kenrck
++” Their is no respect for human life, Why? Because the young are taught they are just a form of higher animal. “
It depends what you mean by “just”? We are all animals. What value judgement can you place on that fact?
++”In the U.S. children bring guns to school and threaten the teacher and fellow classmates, a number of school shootings has happened, oh well just animals!”
Yes, why are there such appalling levels of gun homocide in the US? The UK, Canada and other Western countries are as secular as the US (at least its constitution), but those countries suffer only a tiny fraction of the gun crime. The numbers of people rejecting the theory of evolution and embracing fundamentalist religion are much higher in the US. Could that be the correlation?
Honestly I think it is a culture of paranoia in an over-armed population that does it.++”But all these things are going to happen, it's been prophesied.
2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.I don’t think this is prophecy at all. These things have been happening during every decade of the past 2000 years. I would say that a decrease in religious belief is the only thing consistent with the above in today’s world. The rest is too generic to predict anything. Give me dates, places and colours like the science prophecy of the next lunar eclipse on August 28th. That’s real predictive power.
++”Well I guess I'm stupid I never once in my life believed I was an ape. To the natural man who is evil by the above scriptures that WEREN'T written exactly yesterday it is foolishness, as you say a fairytale.
To those who know and love the LORD it is TRUTH and the future.“To the increasing numbers no longer attending church, it is becoming the past.
Yes, how do you know the lord exactly? What experience/observation have you had that the estimated 60 million atheists/agnostics in the US have not?++”Those people in biblical times must have been closer to apes than you are today, right? OR has evolution just stopped? Gee pretty smart apes I would think to know the future. Things that happen today OR the “last days”.
You ask a serious question about evolution. We have not stopped being apes. We are Homo Sapiens, a species of ape, just as people were 2000 or 20,000 years ago. The amount of change in our genes in that time has been tiny, but no, evolution has not stopped. In humans it has slowed down by an estimated 20 years because of modern medicine. How that was estimated I don’t know, but interesting, eh?
Stuart
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