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Hi STU
Good thoughts on evolution but you forget to consider Darwinism, Which I Love as a theory, Does not Creat life but just explains life mutations after life began.
Quote:”we don’t know how the original abiogenesis happened, then all you can say is you don’t know. It is completely wrong to make any supernatural conclusions on the basis of ignorance. It is simply not true that there ‘has to be a god’.”
I did not say there has to be a Gd but truly does make a Man wonder if such a possiblity exists? Then consider the complex nature of the frist DNA STRAND forming and consider the Odds of Random chance or Mutations forming it. I think here again creation seems more likely than random chance. Here is the Proof that a Watch-Smith might be at Hand?
HI Stuart
Just an added thought after rerviewing your past comments.
Quote:(Stu)
If the ‘god seeded matter for life and set things off’ model is right then Darwin is wrong.Doesn't have to be so when both may be correct in that God “seeded/ created life on Planets” Then once life “seeded” Evolution and mutations took over to develop life as God had Planned it would.
Here is a Quote of My own “God sees the future as we see the Past”
Just saying God knows what he has created and how it would develop before actually creating it. This later part is just my specualtion. But Darwin just “discovered the mechanism” of God's Plan of creation, neither did Darwin invent it or cause it to control the selection of fitesses of any organisms … KAB-39Hi Kimba08
Quote Good thoughts on evolution but you forget to consider Darwinism, Which I Love as a theory, Does not Creat life but just explains life mutations after life began.
I don’t know what ‘Darwinism’ is. Darwin’s theory is the fact of evolution explained by the theory of natural selection. Abiogenesis is not part of Darwin’s theory.Quote I did not say there has to be a Gd
You did write “Saw a show that pointed out the Logic of God's creation in this story”.Quote but truly does make a Man wonder if such a possiblity exists?
Maybe, but that impulse is a product of natural selection, not a credible conclusion from the evidence.Quote Then consider the complex nature of the frist DNA STRAND forming and consider the Odds of Random chance or Mutations forming it. I think here again creation seems more likely than random chance. Here is the Proof that a Watch-Smith might be at Hand?
That is exactly what Richard Dawkins demonstrates in The Blind Watchmaker. Yes it seems that way to our brains but no, it is an illusion. You are trying to imagine a fully formed and coding DNA strand arising by chance from nothing, but almost certainly DNA did not appear until a very long way along, arising from something much more rudimentary by an imperceptibly slow process of change. You also have the problem of what designed the designer.Quote Stu: If the ‘god seeded matter for life and set things off’ model is right then Darwin is wrong. Doesn't have to be so when both may be correct in that God “seeded/ created life on Planets” Then once life “seeded” Evolution and mutations took over to develop life as God had Planned it would. Here is a Quote of My own “God sees the future as we see the Past”. Just saying God knows what he has created and how it would develop before actually creating it. This later part is just my specualtion. But Darwin just “discovered the mechanism” of God's Plan of creation, neither did Darwin invent it or cause it to control the selection of fitesses of any organisms …
Natural selection is not forward-looking. Whatever random mutations arise will only be retained if they are immediately advantageous. Through all the multitudes of random environmental twists and turns, of billions of years of climate upheaval and 5 mass extinctions (sorry none of them global floods!), there was no guarantee that humans would ever arise. A creator would have to somehow meddle constantly over billions of years in order that in the last 200,000 years we would appear. How intelligent does that method of design sound to you? In any case if a god was the cause then natural selection is wrong.Stuart
Quote[Natural selection is not forward-looking.] – I did not say natural selection is forward looking but GOD is! God knows what will arise from his Seeding before it is seeded! He sees the future! Omnisence.
Whatever random mutations arise will only be retained if they are immediately advantageous. Through all the multitudes of random environmental twists and turns, of billions of years of climate upheaval and 5 mass extinctions (sorry none of them global floods!), there was no guarantee that humans would ever arise. A creator would have to somehow meddle constantly over billions of years in order that in the last 200,000 years we would appear. No meddling is required if he knows from Start!
How intelligent does that method of design sound to you? Stupid design of course but God is not stupid we are in trying to understand the infinite in finate termsQuote[In any case if a god was the cause then natural selection is wrong.]
You always say this, but It is wrong! God Started Natural selection and selected how to start it to create his desires and knowing ALL he knew how to do that. I know this is A lot of ifs God did this and then God did this byes. So no real Proof down this line just the Start of Life again begining without a creator unlikely! … KAB-42Stu
Got stupid joke for you. Remember discussing with another About if Atheism was a religion then not collecting stamps was a Hobby?
Question how many Christians does it take to teach an Atheist how to collect Stamps?
All the ends of the Earth because he has no faith in them! Sorry had to finally say it … KAB-42 just came to me at time
Quote (kejonn @ July 30 2008,12:08) Quote (Samuel @ July 29 2008,17:41) I don't have to disprove it. GOD will when he comes back.
When did he leave?
He leaves when you give up on him. But he is not far away.The singularity that came from nowhere and exploded into an galaxies with suns and planets and eventually produced life on one of the planets of which a certain cell eventually was carved into an ape by which a very intelligent ape arose is the biggest fairytale of all and it is quite hilarious too. This singularity also spat out bananas, billions of insects that can fly better than any creation of NASA, and human brains that computers find very difficult to mimic.
“The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.”
Sure there are galaxies and suns and planets. Life, cells, insects, apes, humans, and bananas. But they were created. You can even view the source code if you look at the DNA etc.
There is no God? Yeah right. There is more chance that this website wrote itself including all the posts within cyberspace than real space creating itself. Just because you can't see the programmer or contributors doesn't meant that they aren't there.
From your browsers menu click on the “View” menu and choose “source” or page “source”. That is the DNA of this web page. Now try and convince yourself that this code came from nobody. It wrote itself.
Hi Kimba08
Quote Quote[Natural selection is not forward-looking.] – I did not say natural selection is forward looking but GOD is!
But you are suggesting that your god’s mechanism for bringing about humans is natural selection. Those two ideas are implacably opposed, and are sophistry unless you can come up with a mechanism that resolves that.Quote God knows what will arise from his Seeding before it is seeded! He sees the future! Omnisence.
You know what god knows well enough to tell me that, but you don’t know him well enough to tell me how. By the way, this is very Calvanist of you!Quote Stupid design of course but God is not stupid we are in trying to understand the infinite in finate terms
You have no evidence for anything, so we are discussing your imagined natural history here. The nature of this ‘design’ is that it is haphazard, wasteful, random, perfectly matching of environmental pressures but no other mysterious forces. That is completely compatible with the scientific explanation but I can only guess at how it fits yours, because no doubt your god will have different properties and wants to anyone else’s.Stu: In any case if a god was the cause then natural selection is wrong.
Quote You always say this, but It is wrong! God Started Natural selection and selected how to start it to create his desires and knowing ALL he knew how to do that. I know this is A lot of ifs God did this and then God did this byes.
There is a body of science that matches real evidence and has no need for a god for a completely satisfactory (except to fundamentalist religionists) explanation for the variety and complexity of life on earth. There are problems with abiogenesis, but that is to be expected with an event that may have only happened once, about 4 billion years ago. The myth of Noah’s ark cannot be verified at all by apologists and that is alleged to have happened only thousands of years ago. You are proposing a variation on the theory of natural selection but as you say you have no evidence and no mechanism for how it could happen. How does a god ‘seed’ matter in order that life will begin and humans will arise countless eons later? If that is what happened then it is not environmental pressures that have caused the changes in genomes, and Darwin is wrong.Quote … KAB-42
I am curious…KAB-42 etc??Quote Question how many Christians does it take to teach an Atheist how to collect Stamps?
2 billion. One to outline how stamp collecting is a better hobby than finding out about atheistic, god-hating, gay-loving evilution, and 1,999,999,999 to argue bitterly amongst themselves about the trinity.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 02 2008,11:13) Quote (kejonn @ July 30 2008,12:08) Quote (Samuel @ July 29 2008,17:41) I don't have to disprove it. GOD will when he comes back.
When did he leave?
He leaves when you give up on him. But he is not far away.
So he is not everywhere then? Has he just popped down to the shops for some paracetamol for the headaches caused by being constantly bothered by the righteous?Stuart
Hi t8
Quote The singularity that came from nowhere and exploded into an galaxies with suns and planets and eventually produced life on one of the planets of which a certain cell eventually was carved into an ape by which a very intelligent ape arose is the biggest fairytale of all and it is quite hilarious too. This singularity also spat out bananas, billions of insects that can fly better than any creation of NASA, and human brains that computers find very difficult to mimic.
Not sure about hilarious… I’d use the word astonishing.Quote “The fool has said in his heart that there is no God.”
Just be careful that I do not become convinced of your fantasy and convert, t8. You would not want Matthew to find out that you have called a believer a fool!Quote Sure there are galaxies and suns and planets. Life, cells, insects, apes, humans, and bananas. But they were created. You can even view the source code if you look at the DNA etc.
Argument from design. Dead 150 years ago.Quote There is no God? Yeah right.
I can’t see, hear, smell, touch or taste one, t8. My radio does not pick up his speeches to all nations, not even reading between the lines of my newspaper reveals a single scrap of this divine purpose with which you have become convinced. You do not know anything I cannot in principle know, or at least if there is, you have not told me what it is and why.Quote There is more chance that this website wrote itself including all the posts within cyberspace than real space creating itself. Just because you can't see the programmer or contributors doesn't meant that they aren't there.
True, as have already said 247 times. I made that number up. I bet it’s not far off. There is no guarantee that any of us exist, but you are dealing with a concept outside empirical science there. Now you cannot have it both ways. If we can’t mutually know for sure if we exist, then how on earth can that be an excuse for postulating a god of the same kind, then arrogantly claiming to know best what it wants?Quote From your browsers menu click on the “View” menu and choose “source” or page “source”. That is the DNA of this web page. Now try and convince yourself that this code came from nobody. It wrote itself. Yawn. Dead argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_design
Get some new material!
Stuart
HI STU:
Quote
Posts: 2322
Joined: July 2007 Posted: Aug. 02 2008,13:35——————————————————————————–
Hi Kimba08Quote
Quote[Natural selection is not forward-looking.] – I did not say natural selection is forward looking but GOD is!But you are suggesting that your god’s mechanism for bringing about humans is natural selection. Those two ideas are implacably opposed, and are sophistry unless you can come up with a mechanism that resolves that.
Not opposing at ALL, invented by Design! I will rephase my defintion to “Devine Selection THREW Natural selection” Where's tthe opposition? NOT “Your”(MY) GOD's Mechanism” but unfortunately for him Your GOD's Also by definition of creator of ALL things? Stubborn and/or Small? Little Humour to relieve some tension 
I know very little SORRY … More Later>>>>work … KAB-44Hi Kimba08
It doesn't matter what you call it. You don't seem to understand the problem with your proposal. Creation with foresight of something specific through natural selection, without constant meddling by a divine meddler, is not possible. I don't just mean I don't know how, I mean it is a complete contradiction. Once the 'creator' has kicked things off, it does not matter what foresight it has, the results are completely dependent on having the different environments, catastrophes and chance mutations that eventually resulted in us. Your proposition is obviously not biblical, it is contrary to the evidence and I wonder what basis you have for proposing it. Wishful thinking?
Once again, if you are serious then show us how matter can be seeded with the future of life. otherwise we have a perfectly good explanation that entirely explains the variety of life and does not require magic.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 02 2008,11:24) The singularity that came from nowhere and exploded into an galaxies with suns and planets and eventually produced life on one of the planets of which a certain cell eventually was carved into an ape by which a very intelligent ape arose is the biggest fairytale of all and it is quite hilarious too. This singularity also spat out bananas, billions of insects that can fly better than any creation of NASA, and human brains that computers find very difficult to mimic.
Hi T8,Did you ever wonder if that singularity of which you speak,
which was everything that existed before the big bang, may not have been God Himself?Tim
Hi Stu:
Pretty straight-forward But I think you will still argue even if I answered all your questions to infinity and beyond. I think BEYOND! Our universe was either Created or Just Happened by random events. If random then no GOD required but if God's Design God must be very Powerful. Ie. Omnipotent now omniscience and Omnipresent are given to GOD but I Should think you have no PROOF you always need and I doubt an atheist will find it and if you could would reject it as with all other examples of existence of GOD we have discussed. You seem to yourself to be open minded yet that hand your Avatar covers his face with, is yours, as much as any Fundemalistic Religionists you lothe.
I see your Dilemma of understanding ? Define “Onmipresence” In a scense God controls the dice. If capable of being any time or place then he just throws dice and sees where they land before they stop moving by flipping “Time Zones” instantiously also omniscience would let him know with-out going as a alternative method of knowing what the dice will be. Imagine a newly formed Earth with no life then GOD creats life “BY HIS WORD”, look it up, basically he thinks it and it happens on most rudimentary level of explanation. The Dice in this Example of Course is the outcome of his life seeding millions and Billions of years or Eons later. So he “sees” or “Knows” Man exists if he creats this life or that etc. He “Knows” and Goes there instantiously then and “sees” what happened.
You asked me how? This is it but I doubt you will get it like my Joke. Buy way you are right in your Joke's reply about 1.999999 Billion and the Trintiy.
With a closed mind I can't see you understanding anything of God. Which is unfortunate as your spirit is sitting just above your nose and you WILL never get that either. So much your missing by not looking and it is so easy!
Change my name again to “Devine design by natural selection”, Perhaps add preordained or Calvanistic for you when there is none in reality?
By way … KAB-45 >>> Design by Natural Selection of Progressions ie. My initials and posting number
Hi Kimba08
Quote But I think you will still argue even if I answered all your questions to infinity and beyond. I think BEYOND!
One single credible answer would be more than I could hope for. That is not a specific dig at you. I cannot remember the last time I got a straight explanation with evidence for a christian truth claim, and believe me I have asked many questions.Quote Our universe was either Created or Just Happened by random events. If random then no GOD required but if God's Design God must be very Powerful.
Yes. A god-IF that is not based in evidence.Quote Ie. Omnipotent now omniscience and Omnipresent are given to GOD but I Should think you have no PROOF you always need and I doubt an atheist will find it and if you could would reject it as with all other examples of existence of GOD we have discussed.
Take a step back and ask yourself how omniscient a god is if he has to call out to Adam to find out where he is, or how omnipotent if he repents of doing various things. A single scrap of evidence for the reality of this mythology would be a start. Why do all the most elegant and comprehensive answers, the ones that are robust logically and actually make real prophecy, lack any need for supernatural beings as part of the explanation?Quote You seem to yourself to be open minded yet that hand your Avatar covers his face with, is yours, as much as any Fundemalistic Religionists you lothe.
Read into that what you like. There is a history to it that I will not bore you with. You will have to judge whether you believe my philosophical agnosticism, that one cannot know for sure that there is not a god but that on evidence atheism is an obvious conclusion. Do you concede the possibility that there is no god? If not then you might understand the hands over the eyes.Quote I see your Dilemma of understanding ? Define “Onmipresence” In a scense God controls the dice. If capable of being any time or place then he just throws dice and sees where they land before they stop moving by flipping “Time Zones” instantiously also omniscience would let him know with-out going as a alternative method of knowing what the dice will be.
Hmmm. God repented of creating humans in Genesis. Did he not foresee the problems he perceived and go back to review creation? He created the nature of freewill and knew the outcome before the start. What childish game is this? A temporal slapstick farce?Quote Imagine a newly formed Earth with no life then GOD creats life “BY HIS WORD”, look it up, basically he thinks it and it happens on most rudimentary level of explanation.
‘By his word’ is not a mechanism of physical science that I can recognise. I see no difference between that and the Flying Spaghetti Monster using his Noodly Appendage to rearrange individual atoms. Actually I have already given a far better mechanistic explanation just there.Quote The Dice in this Example of Course is the outcome of his life seeding millions and Billions of years or Eons later. So he “sees” or “Knows” Man exists if he creats this life or that etc. He “Knows” and Goes there instantiously then and “sees” what happened.
So it happened because your god knew it would. And because of his ‘word’? Real science is wiping the floor with your conjecture at the moment.Quote You asked me how? This is it but I doubt you will get it like my Joke.
But you don’t get it either. I don’t need an explanation to infinity and beyond, that is a strawman of my question.Quote With a closed mind I can't see you understanding anything of God. Which is unfortunate as your spirit is sitting just above your nose and you WILL never get that either. So much your missing by not looking and it is so easy!
And what of you? Missing the true beauty and brutal elegance of natural history. Failing to comprehend the central organising principle of biology, spending all this time trying to reconcile the christian fantasy world with reality and finding that your imaginings are incompatible with that reality. I think your bluff needs calling. You don’t know anything that I cannot in principle know. Your ‘spiritual world’ is identical in cause to mine. You have become convinced somehow of a story that has no basis in any reality we can know. Your inability to express it should be enough to send you back to the source for a better version. When the mist that was there last time clears you will see nothing, I am almost certain. Of course there will be a person taking money to interpret that nothing for you, there always is!Stuart
I watched the History channel last night. They have a show called, “Evolve” and they were discussing the evolution of the eye. I found it very interesting that while they are able to speculate when the eye came into being (through what they called an “explosion” and fossils from that so-called era), they could not explain why it evolved and exactly how it came to be. Very vague for science, I thought? Is it really only guesswork after all?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 03 2008,08:43) I watched the History channel last night. They have a show called, “Evolve” and they were discussing the evolution of the eye. I found it very interesting that while they are able to speculate when the eye came into being (through what they called an “explosion” and fossils from that so-called era), they could not explain why it evolved and exactly how it came to be. Very vague for science, I thought? Is it really only guesswork after all?
Good question, Not3. If it was a TV show from a couple of decades ago they might discuss eye evolution in those terms. There is no excuse today. There are examples of the evolutionary intermediate stages present in still-living species. The eye has always been a creationist favourite, and now it is rapidly going sour on them because as usual there is a very straightforward explanation. There is little guesswork and much evidence even for an adaptation that leaves poor fossils.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
Stuart
Hi Stu
Have hard time replying to ALL your negative responses. I know I lack PROOF! I have Proof, Look in Mirror! I know we've covered Design threw evolution of your Body but there's more. Much more Actually. And this is the last class as at this point evolution ends on most part in being of much importance. Of course evolution is still slowly marching on but the true creation has already been created NOW and this Creation CAN NOT! be explained by Darwin! It is YOU naturally not your Body that can be accounted for by Darwin but the thing that makes us defer from rest of Darwins Prodigy of Evolution ie Fish, Animals and Birds of all kinds. They all have an aniamal brain strickly stimlus response mechanisms only. Can be trained by Punishmnet / reward methods quite effectively but No thought, No creativity, Just response to stimius and that is all Darwins theory can manufacture from the missing abiogensis material. No True intelligent life that allows you to consider my words or read this type. A dog can't read but you can. Not saying much for the poor dog having to put up with you? There is not conscience thought or computations just reaction to enviromental conditions beaten into it's animal mind.
Fact is we too can be trained to some smaller degree but the Rational mind can revolt. An animal will always react in some trained manner. A dog cannot sing an opera (Maybe Howl along with you?) lets say write an opera instead, write poetry or paint the Mona Lisa. But if asked but you and I could attempt it, Perhaps a bad effort but some form of similie could be managed by all humans to some degree.
So what is this intelligence that has conscienceness of his awareness with annalictical / artistic capability? YOU! Simply YOU. No more or less. Now here we go again where's the Proof it's Me? You Prove it's not same it's but your turn, Just one scienifical non-refutable, labratory controlled experiment Proving you don't exist and I WILL BE VERY HAPPY and Probably a lot of fundamentalistic religous type you know what I mean because you are aware and analizing the concept. Chow … KAB 46P.S. … you were right about GOD Plan being Calvanistic but only up until man Gains Awareness then Free choice comes in and we have destiny over our lives for Good or Bad.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 02 2008,13:36) So he is not everywhere then?
That is right. He doesn't indwell everything because of sin. He doesn't indwell where there is sin. But that doesn't make him blind though. God is in the process of indwelling all of creation to restore it to perfection. All sin will be cast into the lake of fire aka the second death.You have a choice as to whether you will be part of the new creation and perfection or whether you are entirely of this order and will be destroyed along with everything else that belongs to this order.
Your choice, no one else can make that for you.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Aug. 02 2008,23:16) Hi T8, Did you ever wonder if that singularity of which you speak,
which was everything that existed before the big bang, may not have been God Himself?Tim
Hi Tim.It says that the Heavens declare the glory of God. So if the heavens were originally a singularity, then it was a revelation of God's glory IMHO.
But certainly it was God who was the cause. It was he who started it all.
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