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Quote (Stu @ July 16 2008,11:22) Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,23:01) Hey Stu, just a quick question about the singularity that keeps on expanding and coming up with all this neat design and stuff. Can some call him Father Christmas or Santa, coz this amazing singularity keeps giving out all these neat presents like super bodies and brains, as well as some pretty amazing natural stuff and rainbows and things.
I have already given a very good account. How about you tell us how your Santa Claus figure gave us all these presents. 'He' must have one heck of an army of elves working for him. But then, what army of elves made the army of elves? What previous Santa gave us this one?This current Santa is faulty – he misreads the 'need for justice' as an opportunity to smite people. Could we exchange him for a just Santa do you think?
I suppose one day people will follow the advice given in Corinthians and grow up, leaving the things of chilhood behind.
Stuart
Ha ha. The singularity Santa Claus theory cracks me up.Imagine you are AI sitting in cyberspace.
How did cyberspace come to be you might ask.
Your answer is that a pixel expanded in size and the expansion being slightly uneven led to left over positive pixels which assembled themselves to a logic that by the way has no explanation as to where that logic came from. Eventually the pixels were able to assemble themselves into living pixelisms from larger groups of pixels.
Now imagine that I am an AI sitting in cyberspace. I came to the conclusion that it was all programmed and I can even see the Code/molecular structures/DNA.
OK, now back to real space. You say that a singularity expanded to become all things and even spawned life. I say that it was created by a being greater than his own creation. A being that you cannot apply rules from this creation to.
I rest my case and I hope that the jury see fit as to how ridiculous it is to say that there is no God/Creator.
Sorry Stu, but I am a programmer and I know that you need logical code to create things. Real things are no different. It is not magic Stu.
t8 its a pitty we can't see back into the past from cyberspace!
What would it do to us if we could successfully find all out, closures, how would we change, and evolve to suit the knowledge of siences wisdom? and would we become mutants
Quote (t8 @ July 16 2008,12:44) Quote (Stu @ July 16 2008,11:22) Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,23:01) Hey Stu, just a quick question about the singularity that keeps on expanding and coming up with all this neat design and stuff. Can some call him Father Christmas or Santa, coz this amazing singularity keeps giving out all these neat presents like super bodies and brains, as well as some pretty amazing natural stuff and rainbows and things.
I have already given a very good account. How about you tell us how your Santa Claus figure gave us all these presents. 'He' must have one heck of an army of elves working for him. But then, what army of elves made the army of elves? What previous Santa gave us this one?This current Santa is faulty – he misreads the 'need for justice' as an opportunity to smite people. Could we exchange him for a just Santa do you think?
I suppose one day people will follow the advice given in Corinthians and grow up, leaving the things of chilhood behind.
Stuart
Ha ha. The singularity Santa Claus theory cracks me up.Imagine you are AI sitting in cyberspace.
How did cyberspace come to be you might ask.
Your answer is that a pixel expanded in size and the expansion being slightly uneven led to left over positive pixels which assembled themselves to a logic that by the way has no explanation as to where that logic came from. Eventually the pixels were able to assemble themselves into living pixelisms from larger groups of pixels.
Now imagine that I am an AI sitting in cyberspace. I came to the conclusion that it was all programmed and I can even see the Code/molecular structures/DNA.
OK, now back to real space. You say that a singularity expanded to become all things and even spawned life. I say that it was created by a being greater than his own creation. A being that you cannot apply rules from this creation to.
I rest my case and I hope that the jury see fit as to how ridiculous it is to say that there is no God/Creator.
Sorry Stu, but I am a programmer and I know that you need logical code to create things. Real things are no different. It is not magic Stu.
You demonstrate well my point about those who are still willing to be deluded.Stuart
Still it is quite funny, admit it.
A singularity just sort of popped out of nothing (nothing became something) and then expanded at this amazing rate and in the process of this all sorts of things kind of popped out like galaxies, suns, planets, and life too. I mean this singularity is much better than Santa Claus. Maybe a holiday called Singularity Day is in order? Although their would be arguments as to what day we celebrate it.
Anyway, Happy Singularity Day.
Indeed it is much better than a Santa who built himself outside time and inexplicably brought presents into being from nothing, without explanation.
Stuart
Evolution is just not the case.
ok so…humans came from monkeys, monkeys from frogs, frogs from fish, fish from single celled organisims…?
Single celled organisims from matter, matter from anti-matter…and that came from what?
Sooner or later down the Evo creation chain….something has to have created or have been created from something else…
It still begs for the explanation of a Almighty Creator.
I'm sorry but the Evo bucket has some holes in the bottom of it.
Evolution is the only fairytale where there is up and not down forward and not back better and not worse.
The theory of evolution is this.What goes up don't come down.(much).
And that is absolute Bull Crap! It is a one sided theory incomplete even if that one side is accurate.
They know it but hate the truth. That is why the Alternburg 16 are desperately trying to imagine some other mechanisim that explains something they can still call Evolution.
They know at the moment Evo theory lives in Fantasyland
People are right to say that their is still no sensible credible evidence for evolution, just a whole lot of religious zealots determined to believe in the unscientific imagination that defies the most basic rules of the Universe.
As challanged many times in this forumn a real life example of evolution that has occured that is not picture of could have beens and book theory but real examples bones etc has been requested over and over.
BUT NONE EXIST. NONE for a theory that is meant to be the path of EVERY species alive!That is Rediculous!
We have a fossil record that shows reducing diversity, lesser life forms, smaller life forms, and that fits perfectly with the laws of science we know.
We have a scientific community that exclude fossil evidence of larger humans from study because it mocks the theory they are trying to establish.
Why, one evolutionist was caught out smashing up evidence with a hammer of human and Dinosaur footprints together because of it blowing apart the time scales.
Quality Science that is from EvoutionisimHow Evolutionists wishes it were true.
BUT THE LIE GOES ON WITH ZERO EVIDENCE.
What they teach in the schools as evolution is not evolution any way.
They teach Devolution.
They Do! They say that Gene pool reduction to the last capable surviving dregs, is Evolution!
Even evolutionists know that is not their own theory!That is nothing but reduced survival capacity and genetic options.
We still nowhere have any examples of positive progressive evolution.
And we know why.IT DEFIES ALL LOGIC, STATISTICAL THEORY, LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS, AND ALL THE ESTABLISHED SCIENCE THAT GOT US TO THE MOON AND TO SPLIT THE ATOM.
IT IS STUPID, AS ARE THOSE WHO PREACH IT.
DELLUSIONAL.
And that is my caps for a wee while over.
The willing ignorance of the evolution preachers (They are not scientific researchers as they should be) is tireing.
I respect those out their trying to actually map what they are told is the truth to facts but the sooner this wild goose chase is shown for what it is a blip of insanity in a otherwise well progressing scientific understanding of the world, the better.I support evolution research.
I support it being considered as a possibility but until it gets a shred of evidence (and by virtue of its claims it should be dominating evidence not shreds) it ought to sit a little more demurly in the lab and not as it constantly is with claim after claim on the front page of newspapers trying to make it look so certain that the naive masses assume so.
Then as is often the case the front page grounbreaking discoveries quietly get withdrawn as each ones veracity and certainty falls to pieces.
That is such a pattern that I take each new headline with a sought of comical; “Oh someones gonna look stupid again” attitude. What will it be weeks months or maybe a year or two til this latest grand announcement looks stupid.So I work along side evolutionary researchers and support their work but only for money and in hope that they establish the truth.
Little bits of progressive mutation (up) evolution may have indeed occured but vastly more degradation has been shown in the Fossil record (Down /thermodynamic gravity )And I aint anti archaeology as some accuse dispite my constant referencing of it. I am against imginarchaeology and misinterpreting facts.
Hi Samuel
Quote Evolution is just not the case.
Oh, really? You can disprove it?Quote ok so…humans came from monkeys,
No. We shared an ancestor with the old world monkeys 25 million years ago, and the new world monkeys 40 million years ago.Quote monkeys from frogs,
No. Monkeys and frogs shared a common ancestor 340 million years ago…Quote frogs from fish,
Yes…Quote fish from single celled organisims…?
All of us, plant or animal or fungus, are descended from single-celled organisms.Quote Single celled organisims from matter,
Evidently, but that is not part of the theory of evolution by natural selection.Quote matter from anti-matter…
No. Matter and antimatter were formed at the same time after the big bang and we are made just from the matter part. If your matter were ever to meet your non-matter equivalent the two would annihilate and energy would be released.Quote and that came from what?
Stephen Hawking says that matter and energy are gravitational energy borrowed from the expansion of space-time. Make what you can of that!Quote Sooner or later down the Evo creation chain….something has to have created or have been created from something else… It still begs for the explanation of a Almighty Creator.
…Which, by exactly the same argument, begs for an explanation of the creation of the creator.Quote I'm sorry but the Evo bucket has some holes in the bottom of it.
Evolutionary theory itself has no holes. Abiogenesis is, understandably a major problem to explain. The expansion of space-time is difficult to describe before about 0.3 seconds after the big bang. Tell me how ‘god diddit’ is a better explanation, or any kind of explanation.Stuart
Vad C
Quote They know it but hate the truth. That is why the Alternburg 16 are desperately trying to imagine some other mechanisim that explains something they can still call Evolution.
You don’t actually understand what these people are arguing about, do you!? I wouldn’t hold out much hope for them disproving evolution by natural selection. They are interested in slight modifications at best.Quote As challanged many times in this forumn a real life example of evolution that has occured that is not picture of could have beens and book theory but real examples bones etc has been requested over and over.
BUT NONE EXIST. NONE for a theory that is meant to be the path of EVERY species alive!
Not sure exactly what you are asking for. We are all living transitional forms. Have a look in the mirror.Quote We have a fossil record that shows reducing diversity,
No we certainly don’t.Quote lesser life forms,
Lesser is a religious term.Quote smaller life forms,
Size is not important in evolution! Changing size is a relatively trivial adaptation, up to a point.Quote and that fits perfectly with the laws of science we know.
Huh?Quote We have a scientific community that exclude fossil evidence of larger humans from study because it mocks the theory they are trying to establish. Why, one evolutionist was caught out smashing up evidence with a hammer of human and Dinosaur footprints together because of it blowing apart the time scales.
You’re too much. Did John Hagee tell you that on CBN?What is an ‘evolutionist’?
Quote That is nothing but reduced survival capacity and genetic options.
That’s obviously wrong. Deleterious mutations are much more common but far less likely to be retained than advantageous ones.Quote We still nowhere have any examples of positive progressive evolution.
Evolution is not progressive. You are thinking (or your pastor is ‘thinking’ for you) with a hunter-gatherer mindset that sees higher and lower qualities in living organisms. Drop that prejudice and there is no meaning in the word ‘progressive’.Quote IT DEFIES ALL LOGIC,
No, it defies common sense but it is logical.Quote STATISTICAL THEORY,
Actually, surprisingly not. Read The Blind Watchmaker for the explanation why.Quote LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS,
Careful! From the Answers in Genesis (apologist) website:
Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere.”
(Isn’t creationist-style quote-mining great fun when it shows creationists stuffing an entire foot into the mouth?!)Quote AND ALL THE ESTABLISHED SCIENCE THAT GOT US TO THE MOON AND TO SPLIT THE ATOM. IT IS STUPID, AS ARE THOSE WHO PREACH IT. DELLUSIONAL.
Again, huh?Quote The willing ignorance of the evolution preachers (They are not scientific researchers as they should be) is tireing.I respect those out their trying to actually map what they are told is the truth to facts but the sooner this wild goose chase is shown for what it is a blip of insanity in a otherwise well progressing scientific understanding of the world, the better.
Would you be able to state what Darwin actually said about the origin of species? Could you list all the evidence that Darwin did not even know about that has subsequently fitted perfectly into his model?Quote I support evolution research. I support it being considered as a possibility but until it gets a shred of evidence (and by virtue of its claims it should be dominating evidence not shreds) it ought to sit a little more demurly in the lab and not as it constantly is with claim after claim on the front page of newspapers trying to make it look so certain that the naive masses assume so.
Yawn.What is ‘evolution research’?
Quote Then as is often the case the front page grounbreaking discoveries quietly get withdrawn as each ones veracity and certainty falls to pieces. That is such a pattern that I take each new headline with a sought of comical; “Oh someones gonna look stupid again” attitude. What will it be weeks months or maybe a year or two til this latest grand announcement looks stupid.
Zzzzz.Quote So I work along side evolutionary researchers
So you keep saying.Quote and support their work but only for money and in hope that
they establish the truth.
I don’t think you actually know the first thing about it. How have you educated yourself to a position where you can make credible arguments about the central unifying principle of all biology?Quote Little bits of progressive mutation (up) evolution may have indeed occured but vastly more degradation has been shown in the Fossil record (Down /thermodynamic gravity )
THERMODYNAMIC GRAVITY?Quote And I aint anti archaeology as some accuse dispite my constant referencing of it. I am against imginarchaeology and misinterpreting facts
You have not written about one single archaeological discovery that I can find. Is that because archaeology reveals that the bible is a work of historical fiction?For the record, your long post does not contain any evidence that disproves any scientific theory.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2008,22:34) Vad C Quote They know it but hate the truth. That is why the Alternburg 16 are desperately trying to imagine some other mechanisim that explains something they can still call Evolution.
You don’t actually understand what these people are arguing about, do you!? I wouldn’t hold out much hope for them disproving evolution by natural selection. They are interested in slight modifications at best.They are not trying to disprove evolution they are trying to think of a theory that works to replace it that is not alreqady disproven like natural selection.
You don't need to disprove an unproven thing!Quote As challanged many times in this forumn a real life example of evolution that has occured that is not picture of could have beens and book theory but real examples bones etc has been requested over and over.
BUT NONE EXIST. NONE for a theory that is meant to be the path of EVERY species alive!
Not sure exactly what you are asking for. We are all living transitional forms. Have a look in the mirror.What did you want me to llok at, or as you say
Huh!
My miroor aint magic and I am not sure if you think yours is but all I see is a Human as described and drawn through out the ages all 3-4500 years since the Flood.The same form as walked with teh Dinosaurs as proven over and pver in complete contridiction to any Evolutionary fairtale timescale you look at.
Quote We have a fossil record that shows reducing diversity,
No we certainly don’t.Yes we certainly Do!
There ar FAR More species in fossil form than alive today Buddy!Seen any dinosauurs and large groups of ten foot tall men recently? (Apart from alligators and folk with messed up pituarity glands).
Quote lesser life forms,
Lesser is a religious term.No it is a mathmatical term.. The terms symbol is “<"
Please explain how it became religious. I was talking numbers.Quote smaller life forms,
Size is not important in evolution! Changing size is a relatively trivial adaptation, up to a point.Funny how they get uneasy and see it as contridicting Human evolution then.
'Put 10 ft Skeleton in the trash please…. Yes Mr Leaky'.Size can reflect age and health and Genetic strength also to varying degrees.
Quote and that fits perfectly with the laws of science we know.
Huh?
NOt a STUpid point thereRead again Eh!
Do you know the laws of thermodynamics, You may be a perfect example yourself. Mess easier than order is a very simple example for you to appreciate.Quote We have a scientific community that exclude fossil evidence of larger humans from study because it mocks the theory they are trying to establish. Why, one evolutionist was caught out smashing up evidence with a hammer of human and Dinosaur footprints together because of it blowing apart the time scales. You’re too much. Did John Hagee tell you that on CBN?
What is an ‘evolutionist’?
You are an evolutionist of the typ@ical type and there is more than one type.
A person to whom evidence that contracdicts evolution is by definition faulty without need of explaination nor investigation.And no I probably have watched about 15 minutes of CBN in my life and I wouldn't have even known what channel it was.
Is it what “Christian Broadcasting Network”?
Do you recommend it?Quote That is nothing but reduced survival capacity and genetic options. That’s obviously wrong. Deleterious mutations are much more common but far less likely to be retained than advantageous ones.
You Don't Know the slightest what you are talking about do you!
That is very Very Funny!
I am simply talking about a refining and reduction of perfectly healthy Genes.
We all know that Deleterious mutation is the very backbone of why Evolution is a complete Crock.
Evolution desperately needs progressive positive mutations.In 6000 (or 6 billion perhaps to fantasy land charachters) years since earth was created please point to a advantageous genetic mutation that has been verified.
Please One
One
Just one.Because that is the definition of Positive evolution.
And Not One Single ounce of evidence exists.
It is a Dream for Truth Haters to Cherish and Truth lovers to try to attach legs to and Truth knowers to MOck it down to teh credibilty it deserves
Credibility that you stand upon Stu…
None.
Stu you need to be true to yourself.
You need to realise that if our illusion is right and yours is wrong you will be accountable as one who has had every chance to face the truth. You won't have any excuse will you!
Don't think you pointing your puny Human finger in the face of teh one who holds together thsi universe and the very laws of physics that keep it together will convince hime you were a sadly uninformed person.
You will Join the Billions of souls that have like you Chosen to Defy their maker with arrogance! Your miserable distruction will not compare to what you have seen in this world and point your God made finger at God over.You who have had the chance to get to the bottom of this and have not sort truth but only to mock.
I really challenge you to get to proving the Bible Wrong solidly.
And you will have to do better than Dorkins. He starts with the presumption of no God and uses that to prove their is no God. You do and have all through here.
As neither path is falsifiable in its deep path you should be looking for known history like the past 4000 years to tear down this religion. not an assumption unproven that evolution is true.Get in there man! your type when they get honest with their issues and try to get open and honets have too many times bewcome Gobsmacked and ended up preachers.
Ooooh Yuck That would be detestable.
They end up the very best preachers too because they know their God who made them so beyond doubts as most Christians don't know jack squat about why they
believe hence their drivelly half covinced full of contradictions lives.You don't have any loyal obligations to your side do you… Do you owe atheisim one.
It isn't just your ego in this is it?
You know you are one of those who if it showed up to be true you would change position to match the truth???Yeah?
Well man if you want to do a proper job of what you are doing you will learn alot by trying to falsify testible parts of Christianity. Remember no evidence is not proof of error either too. You are gonna have to take seriously and not just mock down the best Christian arguments if you want to Cure our illness.
Quote We still nowhere have any examples of positive progressive evolution. Evolution is not progressive. You are thinking (or your pastor is ‘thinking’ for you) with a hunter-gatherer mindset that sees higher and lower qualities in living organisms. Drop that prejudice and there is no meaning in the word ‘progressive’.
“Complex” then how is that, “Adaptable” Sorry I think a aninimal that can handle Snow and Heat has progressed if it used to be a animal that handled only temperate climates.
Can you handle that? And I have no Pastor, I think for my self and could do so better than most pastors since I was still quite young.
Quote IT DEFIES ALL LOGIC,
No, it defies common sense but it is logical.Quote STATISTICAL THEORY,
Actually, surprisingly not. Read The Blind Watchmaker for the explanation why.
I have no access to the book blind watch maker what is its basic point.
I hope the watch making story does not include a maker blind or not.
We would not want ID would we!
iF its natural selection and organisims ratcheting their way up the evolutionary hill mostly teh evolutionary hill has sliden down before it everygets to teh top.Quote LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS,
Careful! From the Answers in Genesis (apologist) website:
Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere.”
(Isn’t creationist-style quote-mining great fun when it shows creationists stuffing an entire foot into the mouth?!)I have quoted no creationist site.
Quote AND ALL THE ESTABLISHED SCIENCE THAT GOT US TO THE MOON AND TO SPLIT THE ATOM. IT IS STUPID, AS ARE THOSE WHO PREACH IT. DELLUSIONAL.
Again, huh?Again basic laws of physics that teh entirety of science obey
EXCEPT evolution.Quote The willing ignorance of the evolution preachers (They are not scientific researchers as they should be) is tireing.I respect those out their trying to actually map what they are told is the truth to facts but the sooner this wild goose chase is shown for what it is a blip of insanity in a otherwise well progressing scientific understanding of the world, the better.
Would you be able to state what Darwin actually said about the origin of species? Could you list all the evidence that Darwin did not even know about that has subsequently fitted perfectly into his model?NO evidence fits his model when analysed so…
No I can't, Of Course!Quote I support evolution research. I support it being considered as a possibility but until it gets a shred of evidence (and by virtue of its claims it should be dominating evidence not shreds) it ought to sit a little more demurly in the lab and not as it constantly is with claim after claim on the front page of newspapers trying to make it look so certain that the naive masses assume so.
Yawn.Exactly why you are not fit to debate you go to sleep when every time you are faced with embarrasment.
What is ‘evolution research’?
VaC
Research to find proof of evolution, That thing that has been going on with zeal for years now and turned up NOTHING!We want to see the positive mutations the progressing forms in the fossil record. But still we …. Yawn as we see report after report discovery ofter not discovery that yeilds no conclusive results in a theory that by the very nature of its claims should yield truck loads of examples.
Intermidiate forms should be almost the norm not the exception.
We should be pieceing together the last details of a puzzle not throwing rolls of strings between vastly different creatures to try and map a progression to more complex life forms. (Oops you don't think transformation from a single cell to a man is any form of “progress” do you… Well I think that ios amazing progress… perhaps WhatSupernatural?
Quote Then as is often the case the front page grounbreaking discoveries quietly get withdrawn as each ones veracity and certainty falls to pieces. That is such a pattern that I take each new headline with a sought of comical; “Oh someones gonna look stupid again” attitude. What will it be weeks months or maybe a year or two til this latest grand announcement looks stupid. Zzzzz.
VaC
Best reply you've got to evolutions regular pattern of Super Grandious claim and muffled embarrasment as it fades into an indefensible tale or completly disproven and perhaps supporting even the contridiction of evolution.Quote So I work along side evolutionary researchers
So you keep saying.Quote and support their work but only for money and in hope that they establish the truth. I don’t think you actually know the first thing about it. How have you educated yourself to a position where you can make credible arguments about the central unifying principle of all biology?
Quote Little bits of progressive mutation (up) evolution may have indeed occured but vastly more degradation has been shown in the Fossil record (Down /thermodynamic gravity ) THERMODYNAMIC GRAVITY?
VaC
My term! if you are being Childish again there, like sulking over “progressive” being an unreasonable term to describe the idea of a single cell becoming a man that can build space rockets and fly to the Moon and Beyond.But Mans just an animal.. Its just the opposable thumb that makes the difference.
Quote And I aint anti archaeology as some accuse dispite my constant referencing of it. I am against imginarchaeology and misinterpreting facts VaC
Try reading then!
You have not written about one single archaeological discovery that I can find. Is that because archaeology reveals that the bible is a work of historical fiction?
1 for you Human foot prints beside Dinosaurs, Did you not read my blog properly?For the record, your long post does not contain any evidence that disproves any scientific theory.
Neither do yours Stu!
Nice one Stuy!
I aint convinced and neither is your Judge (as if I matter).
Vad CQuote They know it but hate the truth. That is why the Alternburg 16 are desperately trying to imagine some other mechanisim that explains something they can still call Evolution.
You don’t actually understand what these people are arguing about, do you!? I wouldn’t hold out much hope for them disproving evolution by natural selection. They are interested in slight modifications at best.
VaC
They are not trying to disprove evolution they are trying to think of a theory that works to replace it that is not alreqady disproven like natural selection.
You don't need to disprove an unproven thing!Quote As challanged many times in this forumn a real life example of evolution that has occured that is not picture of could have beens and book theory but real examples bones etc has been requested over and over.
BUT NONE EXIST. NONE for a theory that is meant to be the path of EVERY species alive!
Not sure exactly what you are asking for. We are all living transitional forms. Have a look in the mirror.VaC
What did you want me to look at, or as you say
Huh!My mirror aint magic and I am not sure if you think yours is but all I see is a Human as described and drawn through out the ages all 3-4500 years since the Flood.
The same form as walked with the Dinosaurs as proven over and pver in complete contridiction to any Evolutionary fairytale timescale you look at.
Quote We have a fossil record that shows reducing diversity,
No we certainly don’t.VaC
Yes we certainly Do!
There ar FAR More species in fossil form than alive today Buddy!Seen any dinosauurs and large groups of ten foot tall men recently? (Apart from alligators and folk with messed up pituarity glands).
Quote lesser life forms,
Lesser is a religious term.VaC
No it is a mathmatical term.. The terms symbol is “<"
Please explain how it became religious. I was talking numbers.Quote smaller life forms,
Size is not important in evolution! Changing size is a relatively trivial adaptation, up to a point.VaC
Funny how they get uneasy and see it as contridicting Human evolution then.
'Put 10 ft Skeleton in the trash please…. Yes Mr Leaky'.Size can reflect age and health and Genetic strength also to varying degrees.
Quote and that fits perfectly with the laws of science we know.
Huh?VaC
Not a STUpid point thereRead again Eh!
Do you know the laws of thermodynamics, You may be a perfect example yourself. Mess easier than order is a very simple example for you to appreciate. Only intellect defies it for anything but chance events.
Not of teh sort that puts the absolutely incomaprable complexity and diversity of Life on earth.Quote We have a scientific community that exclude fossil evidence of larger humans from study because it mocks the theory they are trying to establish. Why, one evolutionist was caught out smashing up evidence with a hammer of human and Dinosaur footprints together because of it blowing apart the time scales. You’re too much. Did John Hagee tell you that on CBN?
What is an ‘evolutionist’?
VaC
You are an evolutionist of the typical type and there is more than one type.
But often they are;
A person to whom evidence that contracdicts evolution is by definition faulty without need of explaination nor investigation.And no I probably have watched about 15 minutes of CBN in my life and I wouldn't have even known what channel it was.
Is it what “Christian Broadcasting Network”?
Do you recommend it?VaC
Quote That is nothing but reduced survival capacity and genetic options. That’s obviously wrong. Deleterious mutations are much more common but far less likely to be retained than advantageous ones.
VaC
You Don't Know the slightest what you are talking about do you!That is very Very Funny!
I am simply talking about a refining and reduction in the range of perfectly healthy Genes.
We all know that Deleterious mutation is the very backbone of why Evolution is a complete Crock.
Evolution desperately needs progressive positive mutations.
In 6000 (or 6 billion perhaps to fantasy land characters) years since earth was created please point to a advantageous genetic mutation that has been verified.
Please One
One
Just one.
Pleeeessse!
Because that is the definition of Positive evolution.
And Not One Single ounce of evidence exists.
It is a Dream for Truth Haters to Cherish and Truth lovers to try to attach legs to and Truth knowers to MOck it down to the credibilty it deserves
Credibility that you stand upon Stu…
None.
Stu you need to be true to yourself.
You need to realise that if our illusion is right and yours is wrong you will be accountable as one who has had every chance to face the truth. You won't have any excuse will you!
Don't think you pointing your puny Human finger in the face of the one who holds together this universe and the very laws of physics that keep it together will convince him you were a sadly uninformed person.
You will Join the Billions of souls that have like you Chosen to Defy their maker with arrogance! Such miserable distruction if you continue to choose it will not compare to what you have seen in this world and point your God made finger at God over.You who have had the chance to get to the bottom of this and have not sort truth but only to mock.
I really challenge you to get to proving the Bible Wrong solidly.
And you will have to do better than Dorkins. He starts with the presumption of no God and uses that to prove their is no God. You do the same and have all through here.
You don't take a scientific path by doing that.
You run straight to prove one thing based on an unproven assumption is actually wrong as a fact. But that is as you say rightly, unfalsifiable.
As neither path is evolution or creation is falsifiable (though 6000 years may be) You should be looking for known history like the past 4000 years to tear down this religion. not an assumption unproven that evolution is true.Get in there man! Your type when they get honest with their issues and try to get open and honest have too many times become Gobsmacked and ended up preachers.
Ooooh Yuck That would be detestable.
They end up the very best preachers too because they know their God who made them so beyond doubts as most Christians don't know jack squat about why they believe hence their drivelly half covinced full of contradictions lives.
You don't have any loyal obligations to your side do you… Do you owe atheisim one.
It isn't just your ego in this argument is it?
Or good grief not bitterness to moralisers of hypocrits of something else that does nothing to change the facts.
Surely you are one of those who if it showed up to be true you would change position to match the truth???Yeah?
Well man if you want to do a proper job of what you are doing you will learn alot by trying to falsify testible parts of Christianity. Remember no evidence is not proof of error either too. You are gonna have to take seriously and not just mock down the Christian arguments if you want to Cure our illness.
Quote We still nowhere have any examples of positive progressive evolution. Evolution is not progressive. You are thinking (or your pastor is ‘thinking’ for you) with a hunter-gatherer mindset that sees higher and lower qualities in living organisms. Drop that prejudice and there is no meaning in the word ‘progressive’.
VaC
“Complex” then how is that, “Adaptable” Sorry I think a aninimal that can handle Snow and Heat has progressed if it used to be a animal that handled only temperate climates.Can you handle that? And I have no Pastor, I think for my self and could do so better than most pastors since I was still quite young.
Quote IT DEFIES ALL LOGIC,
No, it defies common sense but it is logical.Quote STATISTICAL THEORY,
Actually, surprisingly not. Read The Blind Watchmaker for the explanation why.I have no access to the book blind watch maker what is its basic point.
I hope the watch making story does not include a maker blind or not.
We would not want ID would we!
If its natural selection and organisims ratcheting their way up the evolutionary hill most likely the evolutionary hill (environment habitat) would have sliden down before it ever gets to the top in the hundreds of millions of years required to get any where assuming we got that first incredible (Not Credible) cell.Quote LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS,
Careful! From the Answers in Genesis (apologist) website:
Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere.”
(Isn’t creationist-style quote-mining great fun when it shows creationists stuffing an entire foot into the mouth?!)VaC
I have quoted no creationist site.Quote AND ALL THE ESTABLISHED SCIENCE THAT GOT US TO THE MOON AND TO SPLIT THE ATOM. IT IS STUPID, AS ARE THOSE WHO PREACH IT. DELLUSIONAL.
Again, huh?VaC
Again basic laws of physics that the entirety of science obey
EXCEPT that is evolution.
Your rebuttals are getting tired there. As is your yet unexplained Crusade against us deluded science haters.
(too bad all we use that dark science stuff when we falsify points supposed to support evolution)Quote The willing ignorance of the evolution preachers (They are not scientific researchers as they should be) is tireing.I respect those out their trying to actually map what they are told is the truth to facts but the sooner this wild goose chase is shown for what it is a blip of insanity in a otherwise well progressing scientific understanding of the world, the better.
Would you be able to state what Darwin actually said about the origin of species? Could you list all the evidence that Darwin did not even know about that has subsequently fitted perfectly into his model?VaC
NO evidence fits his model when analysed
So…
No I can't, Of Course! You are tired their aren't you!Quote I support evolution research. I support it being considered as a possibility but until it gets a shred of evidence (and by virtue of its claims it should be dominating evidence not shreds) it ought to sit a little more demurly in the lab and not as it constantly is with claim after claim on the front page of newspapers trying to make it look so certain that the naive masses assume so.
Yawn.VaC
Exactly why you are not fit to debate you go to sleep when every time you are faced with embarrasment.What is ‘evolution research’?
Research to find proof of evolution, That thing that has been going on with zeal for years now and turned up NOTHING!
We want to see the positive mutations the progressing forms in the fossil record. But still we …. Yawn as we see report after report discovery ofter not discovery that yeilds no conclusive results in a theory that by the very nature of its claims should yield truck loads of examples.
intermidiate forms should be almost teh norm not the exception.
We should be pieceing together the last details of a puzzle not throwing rolls of strings between vastly different creatures to try and map a progreson to mor complex life forms. (Oops you
don't think transformation from a single cell to a man is any form of progrees do you… Well I think that ios amazing progress… perhaps WhatSupernatural?
Quote Then as is often the case the front page grounbreaking discoveries quietly get withdrawn as each ones veracity and certainty falls to pieces. That is such a pattern that I take each new headline with a sought of comical; “Oh someones gonna look stupid again” attitude. What will it be weeks months or maybe a year or two til this latest grand announcement looks stupid. Zzzzz.
Best reply you've got to evolutions regular pattern of Super Grandous claim and muffled embarrasment as it fades into an indefensible tale or completly disproven and perhaps supporting even contridiction of evolution.
Quote So I work along side evolutionary researchers
So you keep saying.Quote and support their work but only for money and in hope that they establish the truth. I don’t think you actually know the first thing about it. How have you educated yourself to a position where you can make credible arguments about the central unifying principle of all biology?
Quote Little bits of progressive mutation (up) evolution may have indeed occured but vastly more degradation has been shown in the Fossil record (Down /thermodynamic gravity )
THERMODYNAMIC GRAVITY?
My term if you are being Childish again there like sulking over progressive being an unreasonable term to describe the idea of a single cell becoming a man that can build space rockets and fly to the Moon and Beyond.
But Mans just an animal.. Its just the opposable thumb that makes the difference.Quote And I aint anti archaeology as some accuse dispite my constant referencing of it. I am against imginarchaeology and misinterpreting facts
You have not written about one single archaeological discovery that I can find. Is that because archaeology reveals that the bible is a work of historical fiction?
1 for you Human foot prints beside Dinosaurs, Did you not read my blog properly?For the record, your long post does not contain any evidence that disproves any scientific theory.
Neither does yours Stu!
Get real Man!
Quote [/QUOTE] Quote [I]
Ok I can't drive this website sorry about the messed up post.
I'd better go practice in the test forumn perhaps.
One repair
“Complex” then how is that? or perhaps “Adaptable”?
Hi again V ad C
I should be charging you for your science lessons here. You have certainly used up your free sample.
Quote They are not trying to disprove evolution they are trying to think of a theory that works to replace it that is not alreqady disproven like natural selection. You don't need to disprove an unproven thing!
Yes you do, that is the whole point of scientific rigour. If you continue to fail in your attempts to disprove then the theory has ever more explaining power. 150 years is a long time for a theory to sustain skepticism. Natural selection has done exactly that. If they can’t ‘think of a theory’ (that would be an hypothesis actually) that explains the evidence better that Darwinian Natural Selection then, as it says in the Laws of Cricket, ‘the state of things shall continue’.Quote My mirror aint magic and I am not sure if you think yours is but all I see is a Human as described and drawn through out the ages all 3-4500 years since the Flood. The same form as walked with the Dinosaurs as proven over and pver in complete contridiction to any Evolutionary fairytale timescale you look at.
The flood was up to 4,500 years ago? That’s the first time I ever heard that. Christians make it up as they go along. All that goalpost shifting must be exhausting. The discovery of dinosaurs and humans fossilised together at the same time would completely demolish Darwin’s work. Please can you provide a link to that evidence?Quote There ar FAR More species in fossil form than alive today Buddy!
99% of all species that ever existed have gone extinct. So much for a perfect creation. Remember that the question was about whether evolution has resulted in increasing diversity. The fossil record shows an astonishing increase in diversity, especially around the time of the Cambrian Explosion. Of course you have already decided that the fossil record shows humans at the time of stegosaurus and begins in the last few thousand years, and you ignore the findings of the entire sciences of stratigraphy and radioisotope study, in all its various corroborating forms. Buddy.Quote Seen any dinosauurs and large groups of ten foot tall men recently? (Apart from alligators and folk with messed up pituarity glands).
Yes where are the Nephilim fossils? Those Leakys, eh? How may nephilim fossils will they be able to hide in their secret evolutionist warehouse in Tanzaia before the divine truth is finally revealed? Those poor creationist museums being unfairly denied the rights to put even one on display.
Stu:Lesser is a religious term.Quote No it is a mathmatical term.. The terms symbol is “<" Please explain how it became religious. I was talking numbers.
You will have to explain that to all reading this, then. I have no idea what you mean by ‘lesser life forms’. I know what everyone else means by it.
(SNIPPED incomprehensible rantings)Quote Read again Eh!
Do you know the laws of thermodynamics,
Yes, not too badly. What you wrote has nothing to do with them.Quote You are an evolutionist of the typical type and there is more than one type.
But often they are;A person to whom evidence that contracdicts evolution is by definition faulty without need of explaination nor investigation.
Well that is not me then.Quote And no I probably have watched about 15 minutes of CBN in my life and I wouldn't have even known what channel it was. Is it what “Christian Broadcasting Network”? Do you recommend it?
It is good for a laugh.Quote You Don't Know the slightest what you are talking about do you! That is very Very Funny! I am simply talking about a refining and reduction in the range of perfectly healthy Genes. We all know that Deleterious mutation is the very backbone of why Evolution is a complete Crock. Evolution desperately needs progressive positive mutations.
Please provide a link for this ‘refining and reduction in the range of perfectly healthy Genes’. Are you saying that the existence of deleterious genes disproves evolution? There is one that is deleterious AND confers a survival advantage, the gene that causes sickle cell disease. How does your Theory of Making Humans by Divine Breathing into Dirt explain that?Quote In 6000 (or 6 billion perhaps to fantasy land characters) years since earth was created please point to a advantageous genetic mutation that has been verified.
See above. Also look at the way the DNA of closely related species show that a recent common ancestor was infected by a retrovirus that left a characteristic section of its genetic code permanently embedded in both descendant species. Does you Theory of Women Arising from Rib Mutation give any insights there?Read http://www.talkorigins.org for many more.
Quote It is a Dream for Truth Haters to Cherish and Truth lovers to try to attach legs to and Truth knowers to MOck it down to the credibilty it deserves
Evolution does not ‘deserve’ credibility. No one has emotional attachment to it just having to be right. It stands or fails on facts alone. On that same basis the bible just fails.Quote You need to realise that if our illusion is right and yours is wrong you will be accountable as one who has had every chance to face the truth. You won't have any excuse will you!
Pascal again. What a brilliant mathematician but infantile philosopher he was.Quote D
on't think you pointing your puny Human finger in the face of the one who holds together this universe and the very laws of physics that keep it together will convince him you were a sadly uninformed person.
I seek clarity. If ‘he’ wrote the bible and organised the billions of years-old fossil record then ‘he’ is attempting to deceive. That is very islamic of ‘him’, don’t you think?
(SNIPPED dull, unsubstantiated evangelical threats. What a loving god he is).Quote I really challenge you to get to proving the Bible Wrong solidly.
I’ve already said to read the Too Hard Basket thread. Have you? Where are your responses to that?Quote And you will have to do better than Dorkins. He starts with the presumption of no God and uses that to prove their is no God. You do the same and have all through here. You don't take a scientific path by doing that.
Scientists presume nothing. They are entitled to, because there is nothing to explain. I think you will find he spells it Dawkins.Quote You run straight to prove one thing based on an unproven assumption is actually wrong as a fact. But that is as you say rightly, unfalsifiable. As neither path is evolution or creation is falsifiable (though 6000 years may be) You should be looking for known history like the past 4000 years to tear down this religion. not an assumption unproven that evolution is true.
This paragraph makes no sense to me at all. Nevertheless, JBS Haldane famously answered the question of falsifiability of evolution with the retort “Bunny rabbits in the Precambrian”. You are right about creationism not being falsifiable, but wrong about evolution. You don’t even know your perceived enemy.Quote “Complex” then how is that, “Adaptable” Sorry I think a aninimal that can handle Snow and Heat has progressed if it used to be a animal that handled only temperate climates.
You mean like the instant ‘progressive’ physical changes that must have occurred in just about all of the animals on the alleged ark in order for them to cope with just living in the wrong latitude? Not to mention the incessant scratching because only two (or fourteen) of them had to carry all known parasites/protoparasites for their ‘kind’, whatever that means. Unless you want post-flood evolutionary speciation on a scale that would give John Hagee apoplexy, you cannot cling to a biblical ‘alternative’ and keep a straight face. Unless you are ignorant of the absurd implications of claiming such things as real. I think you might be.Quote Can you handle that? And I have no Pastor, I think for my self and could do so better than most pastors since I was still quite young.
Perhaps you should get someone else to do the thinking for you on the subject of evolutionary biology.Quote I have no access to the book blind watch maker what is its basic point. I hope the watch making story does not include a maker blind or not. We would not want ID would we!
I will not spoil the discovery for you. Ignore my rudeness above, drive to any good bookstore or library, grit your teeth and buy/borrow a copy. It will offend and intrigue you in equal measure, if you are up for it. Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker.Stu: Would you be able to state what Darwin actually said about the origin of species? Could you list all the evidence that Darwin did not even know about that has subsequently fitted perfectly into his model?
Quote NO evidence fits his model when analysed. No I can't, Of Course! You are tired their aren't you!
What evidence can you list that you say has been analysed and doesn’t fit? Careful, your bluff is showing.Stu: What is ‘evolution research’?
Quote Research to find proof of evolution, That thing that has been going on with zeal for years now and turned up NOTHING!
If it is a search for proof then it will find nothing. The evidence on the other hand is already on display in natural history museums around the world.Quote intermidiate forms should be almost teh norm not the exception.
Intermediate forms are the norm. We are one, unless we go extinct.Quote We should be pieceing together the last details of a puzzle not throwing rolls of strings between vastly different creatures to try and map a progreson to mor complex life forms. (Oops you don't think transformation from a single cell to a man is any form of progrees do you…
Read http://www.talkorigins.org then come back and critique it for us.Stu: THERMODYNAMIC GRAVITY?
Quote My term if you are being Childish again there like sulking over progressive being an unreasonable term to describe the idea of a single cell becoming a man that can build space rockets and fly to the Moon and Beyond.
But Mans just an animal.. Its just the opposable thumb that makes the difference.Yeah, yeah. What about ‘thermodynamic gravity’?
Stu: You have not written about one single archaeological discovery that I can find. Is that because archaeology reveals that the bible is a work of historical fiction?
Quote 1 for you Human foot prints beside Dinosaurs, Did you not read my blog properly?
The evidence independently agrees that dinosaurs went collectively extinct 65 million years ago and modern humans have been around for a little under 200,000 years. There was no overlap. By your ‘joining with string’ logic above you should be honest and also reject one instance of footprints together. The fossils being ‘beside’ one another is just as much string as other fossil evidence, in y
our scheme of things. I haven’t read your blog at all. Where is it?Stu: For the record, your long post does not contain any evidence that disproves any scientific theory.
Quote Neither does yours Stu!
I would be the first in line to congratulate you if you could disprove any current scientific explanation. You haven’t, yet.Stuart
I don't have to disprove it.
GOD will when he comes back.
Then you can explain your little theory to him.
Actually…its probably going to be the other way around.
He will be the one doing the explaining and you'll be the one very eager to listen.
We can go on all day long about what you think and what I think.
But when GOD comes back…only a few things are really going to matter.
Do you know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour?
And,
Have you made him known?
Not…
Have you figured out how I did it?
Your wasting your time on things that really are not going to matter.
Which is what you have very little of actually. What “Time” do you think you have?
You only have a certain amount of time to get what matters right.
When your hourglass runs out of sand you can't flip it over and start again.
You best start putting the first things first.
Take every breath GOD gives you for what its worth.Quote (Samuel @ July 29 2008,17:41) I don't have to disprove it. GOD will when he comes back.
When did he leave?As I said,
He'll be back…
You can save your questions for him…he can explain them to you a lot better than I.You obviously do not want to hear anything about GOD from any of us here on the earth.
Some day you will get a one on one talk with him.
I'm simply telling you that I don't believe in your Idea…just like you are telling me you don't believe in mine.
The only difference is GOD is involved in my Idea…and he will prove his on self to you when the time comes.
It is only my job to make him known to you. I can't ovbiously force feed you something that you do not want.
But, I can disagree with you and tell you that I will have no part of such a lie.
Hi Samuel
Quote I don't have to disprove it.
Then you will have to accept it for what it claims, or make no comment on it. To be honest.Quote When your hourglass runs out of sand you can't flip it over and start again.
That is true for everyone. Some here think you can flip the hourglass and if you have enough customer loyalty points on your Heavenclub card then the hourglass will never run out.Quote You obviously do not want to hear anything about GOD from any of us here on the earth.
I want to know how you explain the real world in terms of your model. Few here know enough about reality to do that.Quote I'm simply telling you that I don't believe in your Idea…just like you are telling me you don't believe in mine.
The difference is that I am telling you why.Quote The only difference is GOD is involved in my Idea…and he will prove his on self to you when the time comes.
The differences do not stop at ‘god’. They include whether you are properly skeptical about every explanation and whether there is basis in reality.Quote It is only my job to make him known to you. I can't ovbiously force feed you something that you do not want.
But, I can disagree with you and tell you that I will have no part of such a lie.
You have not demonstrated that it is a lie. There is a massive, ordered fossil record and an independently matching DNA record which you have never explained in terms of your religious fantasy. You are just putting your hands over your ears and shouting ‘I can’t hear you’ like a child. It is your prerogative to accept any story you want as the basis of your life, but I think you should acknowledge that there is a very exacting and detailed explanation that you are casting aside with vague rhetoric, none of which addresses the serious and coherent model of life on earth that has time and again made predictions that have turned out to be exactly so.Stuart
Hi Stu
You are very convinced in your non-Faith! I was a unconcerned but not a strong Opponent Like you. Just didn't have any proof either way and felt finding any impossible. Now it is hard to believe I was so Blind! All I can see is HIS creations.
Saw a show that pointed out the Logic of God's creation in this story.
You are on a long Country road with nothing but farm-land for, miles. You look at side of road and Notice a shiny Object on fencepost. You go pick it up and examine it to find it a 14 carot gold pocket watch and listen to find it ticking.
Do you assume it fomed in the prermorial dust clouds with all it's complex gear-works, when the Earth and Solar system Condensed. Then after floating in space for eons, it dropped from the heavens only to land squarely on the post and Wound itself just Prior to your appearence?
Or do you see the Creator, a Watch-Smith and the Owner, a farmer who left it there a few hours ago.If you Believe in the Farmer and Watch-Smith how can you over-look the creation of your much more complex Body and say it was Just mere chance and natural mutations? Was a God not our Watch-Smith?
No-one ever says how the building block of life formed or how these amino acids came together and formed into even microscopic life-forms. Sounds like a Gold pocket watch dropping from heaven to me?Consider, is it Possible God invented Evolution? …KAB-31
Stu,
I'm through discussing things with you.
Jesus Loves you.
I will not be posting on this forum board anymore. Thats the last time I'm going to listen to that.
GOD is real, Jesus is real…and in my faith there is nothing to debate there.
We are never going to get anywhere.
Your going to keep telling me that my Jesus is not real.
And i'm going to keep telling you that he is.
I can't keep this up with you…
So i'm leaving this forum board for good.
I have to admit that I must go.
GOD Bless you sir.
Hi Kimba08
Quote You are very convinced in your non-Faith!
Thank you for calling it what it is!Quote I was a unconcerned but not a strong Opponent Like you. Just didn't have any proof either way and felt finding any impossible. Now it is hard to believe I was so Blind! All I can see is HIS creations.
Yes well, our hunter-gatherer brains do see patterns even when there really isn’t one. The illusion of design is powerful for humans who are themselves designers of things.Quote Saw a show that pointed out the Logic of God's creation in this story. You are on a long Country road with nothing but farm-land for, miles. You look at side of road and Notice a shiny Object on fencepost. You go pick it up and examine it to find it a 14 carot gold pocket watch and listen to find it ticking. Do you assume it fomed in the prermorial dust clouds with all it's complex gear-works, when the Earth and Solar system Condensed. Then after floating in space for eons, it dropped from the heavens only to land squarely on the post and Wound itself just Prior to your appearence? Or do you see the Creator, a Watch-Smith and the Owner, a farmer who left it there a few hours ago. If you Believe in the Farmer and Watch-Smith how can you over-look the creation of your much more complex Body and say it was Just mere chance and natural mutations? Was a God not our Watch-Smith? No-one ever says how the building block of life formed or how these amino acids came together and formed into even microscopic life-forms. Sounds like a Gold pocket watch dropping from heaven to me? Consider, is it Possible God invented Evolution? …KAB-31
What you have outlined is the argument from design, which was debunked by Darwin 150 years ago. Darwin explained the diversity of life on earth and the natural mechanism by which complexity arises in biology. If we don’t know how the original abiogenesis happened, then all you can say is you don’t know. It is completely wrong to make any supernatural conclusions on the basis of ignorance. It is simply not true that there ‘has to be a god’. Read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. The question of whether god invented evolution is one that does not have an answer until you can say in material terms what god is. If the ‘god seeded matter for life and set things off’ model is right then Darwin is wrong. But in that case huge tracts of corroborating science are also wrong. It is a lifestyle choice to ignore the long tradition of careful scientific observation of the world, and the benefits that have resulted, but substituting falsifiable, tested explanations with a supernatural story that has all the hallmarks of human invention (ie; not very surprising, human-centred and containing no special previously unknown information about the world) itself demands some explanation.Do you have a falsifiable and predictive Theory of Divine Creation that explains the evidence better than modern science?
Stuart
Quote (Samuel @ July 31 2008,07:55) Stu, I'm through discussing things with you.
Jesus Loves you.
I will not be posting on this forum board anymore. Thats the last time I'm going to listen to that.
GOD is real, Jesus is real…and in my faith there is nothing to debate there.
We are never going to get anywhere.
Your going to keep telling me that my Jesus is not real.
And i'm going to keep telling you that he is.
I can't keep this up with you…
So i'm leaving this forum board for good.
I have to admit that I must go.
GOD Bless you sir.
What were you trying to achieve Samuel? Were you seeking truth or conversions?Stuart
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