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Hi Istari,
On my computer it doesn't work! …I will tell you when it does.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgIrene, Kerwin
Irene said “Thank you Kerwin, you made my day”
If it is as it seem – “Yes Irene” it is always good (Nart!) to find someone to share your delusions with – gives you strength and hope of continuing in the dark together – It's good to share!!!
It MUST BE PATENTLY CLEAR that Kerwin has no idea what he is blabbing about yet calls himself a Student…even a “FELLOW STUDENT”.
How many here have shown him he is clearly deluded yet now you come along and strengthen his delusion by saying “You made my day” (If indeed you were agreeing! That statement is double edged.)
Some one asked me before to SHAKE HANDS with my fellows (STUDENTS) — NO way – How can I SHAKE Hands with the one misleading himself into delusions.
Yet you read the Scriptures and it says “If you try to bring the brother to realisation, three time, and he refuses, do not go to him a fourth time but put him away and not even be seen talking with him”
Did I make that up…yet we continue to exhort him to put away DEMONS, GHOST, GHOULS and Spirits…And even so – he walks in piously asking for support no matter how many times we try to shut him out of the Temple of Truth…
And we should 'SHAKE HANDS with HIM”….I think Not.
Sentiment is a damning thing – it is from the heart – and the heart is easy to set on a wrong course believing it is doing good – sadly not
[always].It is SENTIMENT that, sadly, makes Kathi, believe that God INCUBATED Jesus, before Begetting him – such a sad sorry idea…this she got from believing that God is, get this, LIKE A WOMAN!! who has conceived a Child inside her (IS She a MOTHER simply from conceiving a Child? oh no, please don't make it another Thread – it's a simple Yes No…!)
Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,06:51) Ed J, what browser are you using “Internet Explorer”, FIREFOX, OPERA, SAFARI,…? I use CHROME…
FIREFOXQuote (Ed J @ Jan. 06 2011,08:28) Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,06:51) Ed J, what browser are you using “Internet Explorer”, FIREFOX, OPERA, SAFARI,…? I use CHROME…
FIREFOX
I just tried “Chrome”, still it doesn't work; sor
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 06 2011,08:32) Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 06 2011,08:28) Quote (Istari @ Jan. 06 2011,06:51) Ed J, what browser are you using “Internet Explorer”, FIREFOX, OPERA, SAFARI,…? I use CHROME…
FIREFOX
I just tried “Chrome”, still it doesn't work; sor
“Internet Explorer” doesn't work eitherKerwin! This is what I find so inspiring about your post. Mike and others here have been called liars etc.
I take strength from Jesus, because He has endured much, much more then we ever will. Take care….Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
Peace and Love Irene
To Gene!
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Gene, what do you think spiritual bodies are?
Irene, Irene, irene,
You take comfort in being INSULTED…no no my lady…NOT OF YOU DRAW THAT INSULT to yourself through your own wrongfulness…
Irene, be of a Spiritual mind – that is not what is meant by “Happy”…You have to have been doing good works for it to work like that….
Do you say that a Robber, a liar, a cheat, a damnater, a raper, a murderer, etc, is HAPPY when he is admonished and sent to jail in chains and is beaten and punished – he is happy, when he is pit on, insulted for his cruel deeds, he is happy and ready to do it all again because 'GOD SAID, 'Happy are you when you are insulted'?
Irene, do you see the following words “FOR [Jesus'] SAKE”?
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 06 2011,09:02) To Gene! 1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Gene, what do you think spiritual bodies are?
Hi Irene,Thank you for all your kind words in my defense. But I'm not angry at JA anymore, and I hope you will forgive him also. He is frustrated about trying to make a point that he thinks is going over everyone's heads. But it's not going over our heads………we just don't agree with it. He has said that I've lied and lead people down a dark path. I've done nothing of the sort. I've posted scriptures and my understanding of those scriptures.
Here's the gist of the discrepancy:
He does not understand the “spiritual bodies” in 1 Cor 1:15 to mean “bodies belonging to spirits”, while most of us do. That's it. There's no need for accusations about lying and other harsh words, IMO. We just simply disagree about what “spiritual bodies” mean.
While I had always thought Jesus was raised immediately from the grave as a spirit, I have changed my view in light of scriptures. But it is how I now understand those scriptures that has caused the change. And many of you don't understand those scriptures the same way…………..and that's okay. I still love you all and I know you love me. Over time, maybe some scripture that none of us has even considered yet will appear and shed some more light on the subject.
As far as the rest, I remain with the same understanding now that I've always had.
1. I believe that it is impossible for more than one being to exist without some sort of body to separate one from the other.
2. Without a body or “outer perimeter”, being #1 would just go on and on forever in all directions. So what happens when being #1 comes into contact with being #2?
3. If they are both just going on and on forever in all directions, and there is no “body” to separate one from the other, they would eventually “blend” together, forming only ONE being. And when that happens, there are no longer TWO beings anymore. Which is why I say that if there are more than one, there have to be bodies.
4. Also, spirits are said to “come” and “go” in scriptures. That wording means that they are not omnipresent, for if they were, they would be everywhere all the time. They could never “come” anywhere, because they would be there already. And they could never “go” anywhere, because they would already BE anywhere they could possibly “GO” to.
For example, a third of the angels could not be thrown DOWN TO earth, because they would already have been EVERYWHERE AT ALL TIMES, including earth. They could not be thrown OUT OF heaven, because they would still be IN HEAVEN afterwards if they are EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME.
5. And if there's ever a place where that spirit being is NOT at any given time, like heaven, then there has to be some sort of “body” or “outer perimeter” that distiguishes that this being IS HERE, but NOT THERE.
This is the LOGIC that I started this thread with. And since then, I've studied many scriptures and learned that Jesus IS a spirit, and Jesus DOES HAVE a body. So at least ONE spirit in existence is SCRIPTURALLY said to have a body. And when Paul associates the “spirtual bodies” with “those of heaven” in an answer to the question, “With what kind of BODIES will the dead be raised?”, it all clicks for me. There are more scriptural reasons for how I believe, but this should suffice for now.
But JA, you don't have to see it that way. It's okay if we disagree. But just don't think I'm LYING or LEADING anyone astray, for I am only speaking scriptural truth as I understand it.
peace and love to all of you,
mikeQuote (Istari @ Jan. 05 2011,14:22) Some one asked me before to SHAKE HANDS with my fellows (STUDENTS) — NO way – How can I SHAKE Hands with the one misleading himself into delusions. Yet you read the Scriptures and it says “If you try to bring the brother to realisation, three time, and he refuses, do not go to him a fourth time but put him away and not even be seen talking with him”
Did I make that up…yet we continue to exhort him to put away DEMONS, GHOST, GHOULS and Spirits…And even so – he walks in piously asking for support no matter how many times we try to shut him out of the Temple of Truth…
And we should 'SHAKE HANDS with HIM”….I think Not.
Sentiment is a damning thing – it is from the heart – and the heart is easy to set on a wrong course believing it is doing good – sadly not
[always].It is SENTIMENT that, sadly, makes Kathi, believe that God INCUBATED Jesus, before Begetting him – such a sad sorry idea…this she got from believing that God is, get this, LIKE A WOMAN!! who has conceived a Child inside her (IS She a MOTHER simply from conceiving a Child? oh no, please don't make it another Thread – it's a simple Yes No…!)
Istari,
You didn't quite get what I was saying in my analogy and I would try to explain but you are getting sorta condescending and I'll wait till you become respectful again. I was having a nice conversation with you and maybe we can continue at a better time.Until then, please don't tell people what I believe because you are not conveying it well. Thanks!
Hi Mike! Good to hear from you. I will forgive anyone who ask me to forgive Him or Her. But so far, JA has only made more accusations, as you can see. I am not angry or mad or even upset about Him. I consider the source. It is part of His character. He is only nice if you agree with Him. He can throw any insults He wants to, I don't care….He is not the only one that has been like that to me….Since you explained what you believes are, in your above post, maybe He will see how wrong He was….Take care…..
Peace IrenePierre,
Angels are not even required as God could have chosen to speak to Lot from the boards of his house or the air in his home if he chose to. In this case it appears that God tested Lot’s heart toward strangers and keeping his word. God could have easily sent humans to do the same even humans that were unaware they were serving God in such a manner.
I could ask the question of “why would God even choose to create immaterial beings if he did not see a purpose for them?” I see no reason to since scripture speaks of God as the only immaterial being. I see some beings labeled as spirits but the word spirit has more than one meaning in the English language and a view of the Hebrew and Greek words translated spirit will aid us better to determine what scripture means. I just have not looked into the issue to that extent. That is one thing that I will put on my to do list.
I do agree that God may and does hide the presence of his angels when he determines that to be the most righteous course of action. Just because they are invisible does not mean they are immaterial as the case of Balaam and his donkey show.
Istari,
I do know what brought Paul to Rome but that is not the issue in Acts 28:17-28. In this scripture Paul is addressing all the Jewish leaders who came before him as brothers whether righteous or not. It is plausible he was referring to national instead of religious. He later rebukes those who refuse to believe. I find that unlikely as Jesus instructed his students to believe those who sat on the seat of Moses even though they were unbelievers.
You certainly have leeway to do as he does and rebuke your brother for his sin so that you not become an accessory after the fact. When you rebuke though be careful not to fall into sin yourself.
This forum is a place where different doctrines are debated and thus disagreement on what is the true doctrine of God is a certainty. That should not cause anyone here to be annoyed with the brethren of this site. It is understandable if you accuse others of being unbelievers, deceivers, brood of vipers, heretics since it is quite possible you are confident what you believe is true and all those accusations basically accuse others of not believing as you do. I cannot say you are correct to do so but even if you are not that is minor persecution and should be handled by turning your cheek and explaining why your doctrine is true as opposed to the doctrine of your accuser. It also becomes a vain argument, and thus godless, to continue in such a debate after a while if you cannot make new arguments based on scripture to make your point and can only make personal attacks. Therefore make your point and go on to something new because some take a while to think things through.
I am not saying all personal attacks are immoral but any attack that is derogatory in nature is immoral while even those that are not after much repeating with little else become vain and thus immoral.
My purpose of debating is to learn more of God and his loving plan that comes from his righteous nature. I do this in my efforts to seek his kingdom and his righteousness. Debating aids me in my efforts to strengthen my faith and reform my character in the image of Christ as it tests me in many ways. I find it wisest assume all others are here for similar reasons and not to judge them because of their level of progress that I observe. I also hope they are doing as I do as for the most part I am certain I am doing as Jesus would do in my situation.
References:
Acts 28:17-28(NIV) reads:
Quote Three days later he called together the local Jewish leaders. When they had assembled, Paul said to them: “My brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or against the customs of our ancestors, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans. They examined me and wanted to release me, because I was not guilty of any crime deserving death. The Jews objected, so I was compelled to make an appeal to Caesar. I certainly did not intend to bring any charge against my own people. For this reason I have asked to see you and talk with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain.”
They replied, “We have not received any letters from Judea concerning you, and none of our people who have come from there has reported or said anything bad about you. But we want to hear what your views are, for we know that people everywhere are talking against this sect.”
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
“‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”Istari,
I see you do not agree with what I say but are unwilling, in some cases, to point out why that is so. Take the post you address Irene about and that you accuse her and me of sharing delusions. What delusions are we sharing in that post since we agree on some things and not others? Do you perhaps not believe that Revelations is not speaking of Satan and the fall of angels when it tells of the dragon knocking a third of the stars from heaven or do you disagree with some other point? I certainly cannot tell by your post, nor can I see any scripture you use to support your point. In short where is the beef in your hamburger? You give neither me nor Irene anything to go on. What is the purpose of such wasted words that serve no other purpose than to flood this thread?
I am not sure what you are speaking of when you stated I wrote in another place that I wrote “you seek to Worship Angels”. Offhand I certainly might level that accusation against those who consider Jesus a spirit being as they also call angels spirit beings. From my point of view that is seeking to worship angels. They are free to give their point of view as well. Perhaps it will clear up some mysteries that they still seem to have in explaining their doctrine.
I assume you are referring to my starting threads on studying particular scriptures and discovering what they state about angels and their bodies. The threads are related to this discussion but this discussion is more general than the two threads I started. I also felt like sharing my methods of learning from a scripture though parts like letting God lead me are not included in those threads. I hope instead that people already do that as well as praying and taking the opportunity to learn from what they find. In addition this thread is currently undergoing a flood and it is time consuming and difficult to find those posts that I wish to address. Today is a light day so maybe the flood is coming to an end.
You go outside scripture as scripture does demonstrate that angels do indeed have bodies. There is no scripture that states otherwise. Phantasms which are human souls without human bodies and so do not have bodies but they do appear to have form. God does not have a material form. I am not sure of anything about demons.
Where in scripture does it state that angels do not eat food?
When in the Paradise both Adam and Eve ate food though it was not needed until after they fell from God’s grace. Why do you believe a person nourished by God needs either food or water unless he commands? Did not Jesus go without both for forty days in the desert?
Where in scripture do you find that angels materialize and dematerialize?
In Star Trek they clearly state both fleshly aliens and fleshly human beings do so but I do not see such words in scripture. God certainly can do such to anyone he desires if he wills. The closest I have heard is when Philip is whisked away from the Ethiopian Eunuch only to appear a distance away and that is most likely a matter of interpretation. I have not heard of it with angels though it would be plausible.
Once again I will rebuke you for assuming your point of view is the dominate one. Such is a sign of arrogance. The question is not what the majority believe but what does God teach us. That is why I continue to urge you to back up your beliefs by your interpretation of scriptures and the conclusions you draw from them. Be open on revealing such things instead of making empty accusations based on what the majority believes.
Irene,
I was speaking of angels during the time they are recorded as being observed by men such as Lot, Balaam, and others not when they are in heaven. I was wondering if you believed they manufactured the bodies of human beings at that time or instead manufactured angelic bodies that only appear human like. It is also possible you instead believe they change kind and become human kind during such events.
I do believe at least some angels enter the presence of God in the highest heaven. I believe all angels, except possibly the fallen, enter the other heavens.
I will include that passage from Job regarding angels shouting for joy on my to do list which is already much too long, as you caused me to be curious about it.
I do not believe angels ever married human beings as I believe it has always been their nature is that they neither marry nor are given in marriage as I see no scripture testifying their nature was ever otherwise. I believe the sons of God prior to the flood were the sons of Seth, who was not blocked from the sight of God, while the sons of me were the sons of Cain, who was.
Adam and Eve were never babies as scripture seems to display them as adults from the moment of their creation.
I agree that the b-attitudes are encouraging as they are all promises of God issued to each and every human being and God does not break his promises. My only point is they are each planks of the promise of the new covenant and cherry picking them is not an option as all apply or will come to apply to those that persevere in truly seeking God.
I did read your story and commented on it in the thread you made it in. I cannot remember the exact thread though it was one of the two that address a particular scripture to discover what is tells us about the bodies of angels.
Kerwin,
It is patently clear that you need mental spectacles but are trying to read without.You say that you do not know why Paul came to Rome, yet it is in the previous verses that you refuse to read. Kerwin, it is not hard to find the truth in certain matters if you simply use your eyes and have an open discerning Spirit.
The reason you cannot see the simple truth is that you don't want to.
Like Irene, Mikeboll64, Terraricca, Kathi and others, you simply look for something that appears to fit what you want to say and, no matter what evidence of truth and reality is put in front of you, the spirit of delusion, stupor and embarrassment moves you to retain and sustain your error.Paul made a good speech in Jerusalem and was about to be let off by the governors but then the Jews, maybe just jealous that someone should trounce their everyday belief, raise an accusation against him. Because of this, he fled to Rome and….appeal to the people there.
That, Kerwin, was why he called them 'brothers', because he was making an appeal to them for support, which, like in Jersusalem, he initially found support.
Kerwin, are you so devoid of the ability to understand even basic writing.Kerwin, I warrant that the answer is 'No' because you are seeking to fill your head with delusional acts, events and disreputable thoughts and ideas.
You present yourself as 'Fellow Student'. Kerwin, there is nothing 'Student' about you.
There is an undercurrent of devilishness in your posts, the Angel of Light approach, pretending you are after knowledge but secretly trying to infuse disrespectful ideas into others.I see you have support from the sentimentalist. Yes, people who side with crooks, murderers, rapist, liars and fornicators simply because they feel sorry to see anyone being admonished.
They attack the person who has grabbed hold of a pickpocket and taking him to be arrested.
They attack the the good citizen and release the criminal giving the criminal the idea that when he does wrong and is caught these sentimentalists will come to his rescue…Kerwin, what you pursue is WRONG. And you are no Student but a Pedaller of profanity pretending you seek fellowship.
And to others reading this. Consider that you do not become yolked with the forces of evil.
If you hook yourself in with Kerwin, I warn you that you are hooking yourself in with someone who is not who you think he is, or portrays himself as.
You are warned!!!
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 07 2011,03:40) Pierre, Angels are not even required as God could have chosen to speak to Lot from the boards of his house or the air in his home if he chose to. In this case it appears that God tested Lot’s heart toward strangers and keeping his word. God could have easily sent humans to do the same even humans that were unaware they were serving God in such a manner.
I could ask the question of “why would God even choose to create immaterial beings if he did not see a purpose for them?” I see no reason to since scripture speaks of God as the only immaterial being. I see some beings labeled as spirits but the word spirit has more than one meaning in the English language and a view of the Hebrew and Greek words translated spirit will aid us better to determine what scripture means. I just have not looked into the issue to that extent. That is one thing that I will put on my to do list.
I do agree that God may and does hide the presence of his angels when he determines that to be the most righteous course of action. Just because they are invisible does not mean they are immaterial as the case of Balaam and his donkey show.
KerwinI have discussed many things with you over the past year,on many topics,
and it seems to me that you have learn nothing out of Gods word,you are still wandering if you can believe it ,you have a problem with God not with me;
Pierre
Kathi,
Sorry to you. Yes, we did have good dialogue and I encouraged you to put argument against me.
What I said about you here, is none the less true.Please do not believe that casual tea party conversation with cocked fingers on tea cups, comfy sofa and rich tea biscuits, coupled with compromise discussions, will reveal truth.
Kathi, what you did was to bring God down to being a woman. This is incredible, very sad. Kathi, not even a Man, but a woman!! Don't read sexism into this, we are talking Spiritualness, not the vagaries of jealous human ideals.
God made MAN, Adam, but took the woman out of the Man, Adam.
Yet you bring God down to be the woman that God took out of the Man HE created… How perverse, Kathi…
This is like WJ saying that God could be a worm. Do you even begin to understand how insulting you make your God? WJ I can dismiss because his back was against the wall and he is already lost but your error was not desperate but wrongful thought. You say I misunderstand but don't offer exPlanation.
Moreover, I used your error here to show how wrongful thought born of sentiment can lead one away from truth and how easy it is, once hooked, to feel 'sentimentally' inclined to maintain that wrongful thought.
Lambasting someone who brings this to your attention is just the start of the delusion Process, the slippery slope to destruction of the Spirit.
Kathi, you brought a 'sweet' idea of God 'Incubating' Jesus.
The Satan kept feeding you the hook and strap line until you couldn't get away from it. Satan used your mothering instincts to maintain the idea until you gave birth to it as an 'issue'. Now you are the MOTHER of that issue.
All of this, Kathi, from you thinking, 'Wouldn't it be NICE to think of God having a baby in the same way that a human Woman has a baby!'To all, I hope there is an understanding here of the danger of false thought born of simply wanting to be SILLY. How you can get hooked into the silliness, sowing the seeds of your own destruction, or that of another who likewise incubates the thought!
Mikeboll64, could not stand the idea of again losing against JustAskin and brought snout the delusional idea that 'Spiritual Body' means 'Spirit Body'.
Mikeboll64 understands that it does not mean this but….did I not say it, read my back posts…has clambered his way over to now trying to say, 'Jesus alone, has a Spiritual Body AND a Spirit'.
Yet, this is what JustAskin said from the beginning. Mikeboll64 is still Maintenon that JustAskin was wrong yet every post Mikeboll64 makes concerning this matter brings him a step closer to saying exactly what JustAskin said from the start and maintained throughout.Mikeboll64 need only say, 'Jesus has a Spiritual body while on earth and a Spirit just Spirit in Heaven. He puts on or puts off the Spiritual Body as he descends or ascends from and to Heaven'.
Is this not simple enough. Why strain at the gnat of the thought yet swallow the camel of an idea that Jesus has a physical Body in Heaven and yet still say ,'Flesh and Bone and blood cannot enter Heaven'?And as for his 'bodies need separation' Yes , Mikeboll64, bodies need separation. But Spirits are not BODIES…how hard(?) is that. You give the solution yourself but don't see it because your minds eye is physical not Spiritual, your minds eye is impure, sinful, not forthright, ungodly.
Spirits are 'Everywhere all at the same time' in the Spirit Realm. Yes Mikeboll64.
But when they come into the Physical World they are in One place at one time.Ha ha hah…does my description of Dimensions not say this, Mimeboll64?
Yes, Mikeboll64, it does indeed. How can the Demons in the Man be in him at one Moment and In the Pigs the next Moment when the pigs were 'At some distance away'?Mikeboll64, answer that question with Holy Spirit honesty and your eyes willbe opened to Spiritual grace from God.
How did Jesus enter the room even though the doors were locked because of the Jews?
How did Jesus just appear with the two men walking along the road, and then disappear after they reached their destination?
How did Jesus appear to over four hundred people…?
Mikeboll64, it seems you are the SAUL/PAUL, the Thomas, the Philip, the Judas…of this forum!
You are also the Greek, seeking proof, and the Scientist who seeks to discover and uncover the truth of God but….only to claim it as your own doing?
Bad boy, Mikeboll64, bad bad boy!!!Lean not on thine own understanding, all Scriptures is given for the Godly edification.
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