Do spirits have bodies?

[JustAskin]

Kerwin,
Read 1 Corinth 10:21.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,22:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,07:32) mike if God start to create would this not mean that he start to do thing like adding separate things (all things) beside himself? because why would  he create something in himself ,his God not complete by himself?? Pierre I agree with both of your points Pierre.  What God has created has to be “outside” of God, or the creation would actually BE the Creator, right?  So when God is meeting with the angels in the Book of Job and talking to Satan, what is it that separates the being of God from the being of Satan?  And what separates the rest of the angels from Satan at that point?  And any time more than one angel is mentioned, how do we know it is two separate angels if there is not something separating the one spirit from the other? Spirits have bodies.  This much we KNOW from scripture.  God is a Spirit.  We also know this from scripture.  What is 1+1? mike

MIKE

look it this men has a DNA no matter what happen to the rest of us God has only to keep one DNA cell and he can build us back,

so there could be a DNA for angels and do the same thing.

one more thing,angels are spirits right ,but what is in them thats live and that separate them from all others

you understand???

pierre

[kerwin]

Just Askin,

1 Corinth 10:21 has nothing directly to do with the discussing correctly understanding whether Scripture testifies of the existence of bodiless souls, aka ghosts, or not.  

I have repeatedly challenged you to produce a scripture that states that the Witch of Endor summoned a demon and not a ghost.  You have so far failed to do so.  

The only other possibility is that you are sure that by using logical reasoning based on evidence from scripture that is the only conclusion. If this is the case I would like to hear it.

I do know that through history the majority of Jews and their Christian brethren, who put stock in scripture, believe she summoned the Ghost of Samuel.  The idea she summoned a demon seems to be a recent invention according to what little history I have discovered.

[JustAskin]

Mikeboll,
Are you still here?

Mikeboll…the man who said that 'begotten' was when Jesus was born when Spirits are not born..
The man who refuses to believe Scriptures where God says to Jesus, 'you are my Son, Today I have become your father…also I make you High Priest in my temple'
Mikeboll is the man who says it was when Jesus was born ….when, if so, what had he done to deserve such an accollade?

Mikeboll is the man who says Jesus was 'ALWAYS' superior, when Scriptures shows 'he was made lower than the Angels'.
How is he superior AND YET Lower than the Angels, subject to sin and death like all mankind, and Angels are divine, undying with power…

Mikeboll is the man who says that there are such things as 'Spirit Bodies' when there is not one single reference to such a thing.
This Mikeboll was so desperate to 'prove' the impossible that he twsted the term 'Spiritual Body' to mean 'Spirit Body'…
But worse, this is reference to man….not Spirit…so not only did he misconstrue his so-called evidence, but he also misapplied it to the wrong entity….Do Spirits have bodies', Mike….not 'Does Man have a Spiritual body'

Even so, the reference to 'Spiritual Body' is that of the risen Christ…so if you have to wait for the death and rising of Christ before the Spiritual body comes about then was there a Spiritual body before? Clearly not…

So…do spirits have bodies….categorically 'NO'.

Case closed.

[kerwin]

Shimmer,

That too is one battle God put before me to test my determination to seek him and his righteousness.

[shimmer]

Jay, I would suggest you read the writing of Justin Martyr . I have put the link to his writings back a page. Justin Martyr shows clearly that you are all following the teaching's of the JWs and denying that God can raise back the dead in the flesh and that they like Christ can go to Heaven like this. You are all following the false doctrine of the JWs. Gene and others are teaching the truth in regards to the flesh being risen to eternal life. But you….JA and Mike can follow each other and follow your own ideas, because obviously to you, what they said and believed in the early church means nothing. Well. Keep reading your 'other literature'. To me, I will believe what was believed by the church in the year 130AD.

[kerwin]

Pierre,

You could well be correct that Samuel was one of the righteous dead resurrected after Jesus' death testified of in Matthew.

Matthew 27:51-53(NIV):

Quote

At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Like Jesus, they to appear to have physical bodies after their resurrection.

[JustAskin]

Gene has made such a massive error in his idea that Jesus did not preExist his coming as man that he has decided that he does not believe that Angels exist.

Gene believes that all Spirits are nonexistent 'intelligence'…he has to do this because otherwise he would have to agree with the multitude of verses stating that Angels as Spirits.

Gene even screws around with a simple verse that says, 'God makes his Angels [to be] Spirits'.
Simply speaking, this means that the Heavenly Spirits are Angels…and 'Angel' means 'Messenger'.

So, 'God makes his messengers to be Spirits', or, 'the Messengers of God are Spirits'

What does Gene say….

And HE accuses JustAskin of twisting Scriptures….

Gene accuses falsely because he realises he has been wrong all this time…

Gene, I feel the pressure on you… You can ease the pressure by dropping your inscescant and frankly, boring, claim of 'separating us from Jesus' exact identity'…

You also need to stop lumping everyone into the same bucket of 'PreExistents and Trinitarians' because we do not all believethe same…

Moreover, Gene, who else supports your lies and twisted warping of Scriptures….

You, like Mikeboll, cannot profile your claims against Scriptures …. Because if you tried it, and were honest, you would see that they do not fit.

If I asked you to do so, profile your claims, do not ADD, TAKE AWAY, nor CHANGE IN ANY WAY' what is written in the Scriptures…would you do it?

[shimmer]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2010,10:45)

Shimmer, That too is one battle God put before me to test my determination to seek him and his righteousness.

Kerwin, it is really hard for me when I see people who go to church and who tell their stories. I saw one last night, it was only on TV but it was someone who lived in the same country as me, and I was moved to tears at his story, and what he now does with his life. So it is hard.  

As I posted to Mark yesterday who was being led astray by Ed (Mark goes to church and does well there)……

“Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven”.

[JustAskin]

Shimmer,

Please show me what it is you think I am saying invorrectly.

Time and time and time again i say that Jesus was raised to a fleshly body………

Shimmer, what on earth are you saying that i did not say….

Shimmer, where do i say that Jesus was not raised to a feshly body???

Shimmer, what delusion drives you to say of me what i did not say.

Shimmer, my vision is clear. I did not say elsewise… Why did you say that I did?

I said that Jesus was raised into a Spiritual body…is this your problem.

Shimmer, 'Spiritual body', does not mean 'Spirit body'….
How nany times must i write this…
Shimmer, it is Mikeboll, Irene and Terra who are saying 'Spirit body'.

Please do not place me in with them.

'Spiritual Body' means 'Flesh and Blood glorified, sinless, pure, incurruptible'.

I am completely flummoxed at how many times I have written this…and yet someone turns round and says, 'JustAskin says God raised Jesus to a Spirit body'

Shimmer, do you need glasses? Spiritual Glasses?

Also, a flesh and blood body, even a Spiritual flesh and blood body, cannot enter heaven….

Shimmer, the physical world that we see around us is different from the 'Spirit World'…
A Flesh and blood body is only available in the physical world. It is an encumberance in the Spirit world.

Just imagine being in an underwater suit fitted with bulky air tank…where would such an outfit be used….only underwater…why would you walk around on land in it.
It is weighty, lead weights in the feet, pressurised, bulky, a heavy air cannister on your back, a restrictive helmet….why walk around in it on land?
In the water, however, it is perfect…

Shimmer, in this analogy, the water suit is like flesh..and the water is like the physical world. The land is like Heaven…
When you come out of the water, you 'put off the water suit', you become unemcumbered, free, you can run, jump, lay down, roll around, breath freely, twist your neck, see peripherally, left and right, bend forward, to the side, eat easily, not worried about how much air you have left….more and more….this is analogically like Spirit.

Shimmer, go back into the water. You 'put on the water suit', ('put on the flesh')…what restriction are there…many nany many….opposite of with the suit off…

Shimmer, Jesus 'puts off the flesh' when he enters Heaven, and 'puts on the flesh' when he comes into the physical world.

[shimmer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 19 2010,11:34)

Also, a flesh and blood body, even a Spiritual flesh and blood body, cannot enter heaven….

See, Jay, this is where you have been led astray by the JWs.

You can follow whatever they say but I will follow what the early church believed.

Here are some parts of St Justyn Martyr's writings……….The early church aprox 130ad;

By these and such like arguments, they attempt to distract men from the faith. And there are some who maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual, and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise.

They say, then, if the body shall rise entire, and in possession of all its members, it necessarily follows that the functions of the members shall also be in existence; that the womb shall become pregnant, and the male also discharge his function of generation, and the rest of the members in like manner. Now let this argument stand or fall by this one assertion. For this being proved false, their whole objection will be removed. Now it is indeed evident that the members which discharge functions discharge those functions which in the present life we see but it does not follow that they necessarily discharge the same functions from the beginning. ……… (since we see many women who do not become pregnant, as those that are barren, even though they have wombs), so pregnancy is not the immediate and necessary consequence of having a womb; but those even who are not barren abstain from sexual intercourse, some being virgins from the first, and others from a certain time. And we see men also keeping themselves virgins, some from the first, and some from a certain time; so that by their means, marriage, made lawless through lust, is destroyed.  

And our Lord Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, for no other reason than that He might destroy the begetting by lawless desire, and might show to the ruler that the formation of man was possible to God without human intervention. And when He had been born, and had submitted to the other conditions of the flesh—I mean food, drink, and clothing—this one condition only of discharging the sexual function He did not submit to; for, regarding the desires of the flesh, He accepted some as necessary, while others, which were unnecessary, He did not submit to. For if the flesh were deprived of food, drink, and clothing, it would be destroyed; but being deprived of lawless desire, it suffers no harm. And at the same time He foretold that, in the future world, sexual intercourse should be done away with; as He says, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage; but the children of the world to come neither marry nor are given in marriage, but shall be like the angels in heaven. Luke 20:34-35 Let not, then, those that are unbelieving marvel, if in the world to come He do away with those acts of our fleshly members which even in this present life are abolished.

Well, they say, if then the flesh rise, it must rise the same as it falls; so that if it die with one eye, it must rise one-eyed; if lame, lame; if defective in any part of the body, in this part the man must rise deficient. How truly blinded are they in the eyes of their hearts! For they have not seen on the earth blind men seeing again, and the lame walking by His word. All things which the Saviour did, He did in the first place in order that what was spoken concerning Him in the prophets might be fulfilled, that the blind should receive sight, and the deaf hear, Isaiah 35:5 and so on; but also to induce the belief that in the resurrection the flesh shall rise entire. For if on earth He healed the sicknesses of the flesh, and made the body whole, much more will He do this in the resurrection, so that the flesh shall rise perfect and entire. In this manner, then, shall those dreaded difficulties of theirs be healed.

But, in truth, He has even called the flesh to the resurrection, and promises to it everlasting life. For where He promises to save man, there He gives the promise to the flesh.

If He had no need of the flesh, why did He heal it? And what is most forcible of all, He raised the dead. Why? Was it not to show what the resurrection should be? How then did He raise the dead? Their souls or their bodies? Manifestly both. If the resurrection were only spiritual, it was requisite that He, in raising the dead, should show the body lying apart by itself, and the soul living apart by itself. But now He did not do so, but raised the body, confirming in it the promise of life. Why did He rise in the flesh in which He suffered, unless to show the resurrection of the flesh? And wishing to confirm this, when His disciples did not know whether to believe He had truly risen in the body, and were looking upon Him and doubting, He said to them, You have not yet faith, see that it is I; Luke 24:32, etc. and He let them handle Him, and showed them the prints of the nails in His hands.

And when they were by every kind of proof persuaded that it was Himself, and in the body, they asked Him to eat with them, that they might thus still more accurately ascertain that He had in verity risen bodily; and He ate honey-comb and fish. And when He had thus shown them that there is truly a resurrection of the flesh, wishing to show them this also, that it is not impossible for flesh to ascend into heaven (as He had said that our dwelling-place is in heaven), He was taken up into heaven while they beheld, Acts 1:9 as He was in the flesh. If, therefore, after all that has been said, any one demand demonstration of the resurrection, he is in no respect different from the Sadducees, since the resurrection of the flesh is the power of God, and, being above all reasoning, is established by faith, and seen in works.

The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved.

But now He has come proclaiming the glad tidings of a new and strange hope to men. For indeed it was a strange and new thing for God to promise that He would not keep incorruption in incorruption, but would make corruption incorruption. But because the prince of wickedness could in no other way corrupt the truth, he sent forth his apostles (evil men who introduced pestilent doctrines), choosing them from among those who crucified our Saviour; and these men bore the name of the Saviour, but did the works of him that sent them, through whom the name itself has been spoken against.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0131.htm

[shimmer]

Quote  “…..wishing to show them this also, that it is not impossible for flesh to ascend into heaven (as He had said that our dwelling-place is in heaven), He was taken up into heaven while they beheld, Acts 1:9 as He was in the flesh.

So, who will you believe ? Jesus and the Early Church ? Or do you prefer, as Mike does, the teachings of the JWs ?

[shimmer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 19 2010,11:34)

Shimmer, do you need glasses? Spiritual Glasses?

Yeah I did need them and I received them yesterday, thanks for asking.

[Baker]

shimmer! Scriptures say that Jesus preexisted, Scriptures also say that Jesus went back to the glory He had with the Father before the world was.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Scripture also says that

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in Heaven with His Father and He is a spirit body and not flesh…..he manifested Himself in order to show Thomas his wounds. Maria Magdalene did not even recognized Jesus and thought that He was the Gardner…..

Peace and love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 19 2010,08:54)

Well. Keep reading your 'other literature'. To me, I will believe what was believed by the church in the year 130AD.

Do what you want, Shimmer. I will believe the scriptures. And the scriptures say Jesus is a spirit and that flesh CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2010,11:55)

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 19 2010,08:54) Well. Keep reading your 'other literature'. To me, I will believe what was believed by the church in the year 130AD. Do what you want, Shimmer.  I will believe the scriptures.  And the scriptures say Jesus is a spirit and that flesh CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God. mike

We posted at the same time…and believe the same thing…..WOW
Peace and love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 19 2010,10:48)

Or do you prefer, as Mike does, the teachings of the JWs ?

 That's funny Shimmer.  Keith and Jack used to pull that crap on me all the time.  Just because I understood the scripture one way, they would go out of their way to say that's also how the JW's understand it.  Then the debate became about the JW's instead of the scripture that they couldn't refute.  It was a pathetic sight to see then, and it still is now.

I couldn't even tell you what the JW's say about Jesus' risen body, Shimmer.  I've never read any of their info about it.  I'm just showing you what the scriptures say.  Paul, who is NOT an apostate says flesh cannot enter heaven.  But you quote someone else who says it can.  Where is the scripture that says it CAN?  Because all I know of is the scripture that says it CAN'T.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 19 2010,11:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2010,11:55) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 19 2010,08:54) Well. Keep reading your 'other literature'. To me, I will believe what was believed by the church in the year 130AD. Do what you want, Shimmer.  I will believe the scriptures.  And the scriptures say Jesus is a spirit and that flesh CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God. mike    We posted at the same time…and believe the same thing…..WOW Peace and love Irene

I wish there were more than just us Irene. If all applied what the scriptures teach, then all of us would be posting the same thing at the same time.

peace and love,
mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2010,12:08)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 19 2010,11:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2010,11:55) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 19 2010,08:54) Well. Keep reading your 'other literature'. To me, I will believe what was believed by the church in the year 130AD. Do what you want, Shimmer.  I will believe the scriptures.  And the scriptures say Jesus is a spirit and that flesh CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God. mike    We posted at the same time…and believe the same thing…..WOW Peace and love Irene  I wish there were more than just us Irene.  If all applied what the scriptures teach, then all of us would be posting the same thing at the same time. peace and love, mike

Yes, I know, but we should remember that God is not calling all of us to understand the truth. I realize that more and more…..
Peace and Love Irene

[kerwin]

To all,

Scripture states “there is no God”. It also qualifies it by stating “The fool states in his heart”. Check to make understand the word of God.

[Author]

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