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Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 17 2010,21:53) However, in this instance, levelling is not the point, else we would all tend toward believing false claims and be too tentative in allowing false teachings into the thread…remember the 'Luke Warm Church of Asia Minor' examplelised by Jesus in the Book of Revelation? I agree.
http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/books/articles/antichrist.htm
“As the New Testament makes clear, apostasy was rampant almost from the church's inception. The apostasy about which John wrote was operating in his day. Paul had to counter a “different gospel” that was “contrary” to what he had preached (Galatians 1:6-9). He had to battle 'false brethren” (Galatians 2:4, 11-21; 3:1-3; 5:1-12). He warned the Ephesian church leadership that “men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:28-30). Theological insurrection came from within the Christian community.
Many people prior to Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 questioned and disputed basic Christian doctrines like the resurrection (2nd Timothy 2:18); some even claimed that the resurrection was an impossibility (1st Corinthians 15:12). Strange doctrines were taught. Some “Christians” prohibited marriage (1st Timothy 4:1-3). Others denied the validity of God's good creation (Colossians 2:8, 18-23). The apostles found themselves defending the faith against numerous false teachers and “false apostles” (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 12:15; Philippians 3:18-19; 1st Timothy 1:3-7; 2nd Timothy 4:2-5). Apostasy increased to such an extent that Paul had to write letters to a young pastor who was experiencing these things firsthand (1st Timothy 1:19-20; 6:20-21; 2nd Timothy 2:16-18; 3:1-9, 13; 4:10, 14-16). In addition, entire congregations fell to apostasy:
One of the last letters of the New Testament, the Book of Hebrews, was written to an entire Christian community on the very brink of wholesale abandonment”.
And this;
http://en.allexperts.com/q….tic.htm
We are dealing here with the spirit world, and the Bible has a great deal to say about it…Not only are there good angels who serve God, but there are also fallen angels. They too are called spirits in the Scriptures. The Gospels speak a great deal of the fact that in Christ’s day there were “unclean spirits.” That is what is known as demonism; we call them demons because the Scriptures use that term (J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1983, volume 5, pp. 799-800).
Dr. Henry M. Morris said the same thing when he pointed out that, “False teachers are influenced by demonic spirits, I Timothy 4:1” (Henry M. Morris, Ph.D., The Defender’s Study Bible, 1995, note on I John 4:1). The Apostle Paul said,
“We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:12).
Dr. McGee said, “As this verse [Ephesians 6:12] suggests, the Devil has his demons pretty well organized” (ibid., p. 800). Dr. John MacArthur, though wrong on the Blood, correctly said, “By juxtaposing ‘spirits’ with ‘false prophets’ John reminds his readers that behind human teachers who propagate false doctrine and error are demons inspired by Satan…Human false prophets and teachers are the physical expressions of demonic, spiritual sources” (John MacArthur, D.D., The MacArthur Study Bible, Word Publishing, 1997, note on I John 4:1).
We are told to “try [test, prove] the spirits whether they are of God” (I John 4:1). But how can we test to see if the teachings that we hear are from God – or if they are demonic in origin? That takes us to the next point.
II. Second, the test.
The test is a very simple one. It is given at the beginning of our text,
“Every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God…” (I John 4:3).
Now, I want you to notice one little word here, the word “is.” That is the correct translation. It is translated “has” in all the modern translations, including the New King James. But the word “has” does not give us the correct meaning. The English word “is” gives the meaning conveyed in the original Greek. This is not a minor thing at all. Many false teachers are willing to say that Christ “has” come in the flesh. That is not the test here. The test is whether or not they confess that Jesus Christ “is come in the flesh.” The words “is come in the flesh” appear twice, once in verse two and once in verse three, in the Textus Receptus Greek. Both times it is exactly the same in Greek. The Westcott and Hort text leaves this phrase out in verse three. But that makes little difference regarding this test, because this phrase is given in verse 2 as the positive side of the test. The way you can tell whether the teaching is from God, or from demons, is this:
“Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God” (I John 4:2).
Now I am not a Greek scholar. I am a Christian writer and preacher. But I have enough sense to know a Greek scholar when I see one! Dr. A. T. Robertson was a Greek scholar. For many years he was professor of Greek New Testament at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. Dr. Robertson said,
“The test…follows. That Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (Iesoun Christon en sarki eleluthota). The correct text (perfect active participle predicate accusative), not the infinitive (eleluthenai, B Vg). The predicate participle…describes Jesus as already come in the flesh (his actual humanity, not a phantom body as the Gnostics held)” (A. T. Robertson, Ph.D., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1933, pp. 229-230).
Thus Dr. Robertson argues for the English word “is” instead of “has.” Dr. Robertson, in his own translation, gives the word “is” rather than “has,” as given in the modern translations, on the basis that the word “eleluthota” is given, not the word “eleluthenai” (is come, not has come) (ibid.).
The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown commentary (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1976 reprint, note on I John 4:2) makes this crystal clear. Their widely known commentary correctly said,
Man is required to confess it openly, as in teaching. Jesus Christ is come in the flesh – a twofold truth confessed: that Jesus is the Christ; and that he is come [eleluthota, perfect [tense]; not a mere past historical fact [that He has come], but present and continuing in its blessed effects] in the flesh (invested in flesh; not with seeming humanity, as the Docetae [Docetic Gnostic heretics] afterwards taught) (Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., volume III, part three, p. 640).
The perfect tense of “is” indicates the continuation and present state of completed past action. The word “eleluthota” indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. The word “eleluthota” indicates the progress of the action is continuing on in full effect. Therefore “is,” in the perfect tense, shows that Christ continues, “is come in the flesh,” not that He “has” come in the flesh. That is the conclusion of both Dr. A. T. Robertson and the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown commentary.
Why is this important? Simply because the words “is come” are as close as you can get to the Greek in an English translation. The first century Apostle tells us that “Christ is come in the flesh” (I John 4:3). This is a far cry from relegating His coming in the flesh to the past. The correct rendering into English is, therefore, “is come in the flesh.” He became flesh in the virgin’s womb. He was born in the flesh. He did His ministry while in the flesh. He rose from the dead in the flesh. He ascended back to Heaven in the flesh – glorified flesh. He is seated at the right hand of God in His resurrected and glorified flesh and bone body. This truth is graphically illustrated in the Gospel of John, when the physically resurrected Christ spoke to doubting Thomas,
“Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side” (John 20:27).
Again it is illustrated when Jesus appeared to His Apostles soon after His physical resurrection and said,
“Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:38-39).
Then Jesus went with them to the Mount of Olives,
“And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven” (Luke 24:51).
This was the very same, glorified, resurrected flesh and bone Jesus they had met several times after His bodily resurrection. Then He ascended back to Heaven. The Disciples stood looking up, but two angels said to them after He ascended,
“This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven” (Acts 1:11).
Those are not new thoughts. They may seem new, but they are not. That has been the view of mainstream Christians for close to two thousand years. And it all boils down to what our text teaches,
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God” (I John 4:3).
Jesus Christ “is” come in the flesh. The “is” there shows it was not something He did only in the resurrection of His body, for He continues to live on in Heaven in that same glorified flesh and bone body today – up in Heaven, at the right hand of God, as we are r
epeatedly told in the New Testament. Jesus Christ “is” in glorified flesh today. Jesus Chris is come in the flesh!Anyone who denies that Jesus Christ is incarnate, living right now, in a resurrected and glorified flesh and bone body, has been led astray by Satanic forces. Anyone who says that Jesus is a spirit “is not of God,” but has been led into heresy by “that spirit of antichrist.” Which leads us to the last point.
Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,02:01)
I think you are right Sis Karmarie. Different people see scriptures differently that is the reason why there are thousands of denominations and sects in Christianity. I don't blame them because they are all human beings with limited understanding. But the paradox of Christianity is blame game.Thanks and love to you
AdamHi Adam. Thanks. I also see though (now) the importance in truth, if we all knew truth it would be easier, but it's heretics I think they called them who confused it for everyone. Hope your doing well Adam. It's four in the morning I should get some sleep.
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 18 2010,01:01) Jesus Christ “is” come in the flesh. The “is” there shows it was not something He did only in the resurrection of His body, for He continues to live on in Heaven in that same glorified flesh and bone body today – up in Heaven, at the right hand of God, as we are repeatedly told in the New Testament. Jesus Christ “is” in glorified flesh today. Jesus Chris is come in the flesh! Anyone who says that Jesus is a spirit “is not of God,” but has been led into heresy by “that spirit of antichrist.” Which leads us to the last point.
Shimmer…………..This i totally agree with that, anyone who denies Jesus as coming in the Flesh into existence and still being a flesh human being is in error , and that is indeed the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist John was talking about. IMOpeace and love too you and yours…………………………gene
Kerwin,
Do you think that pursuing demons is something wise?Kerwin, you are so far down the dark road of belief in 'Ghosts' that the light of Truth cannot penetrate to reach you.
Please let this last post be the end of your extremely dangerous pursuit.
You can say whatever you like…desiring belief in nonexistent entities…especially when those entities are 'embodied' by demonic spirits is beyond any kind of sanity for one who claims to be seeking Spiritual enlightenment.
If you seek the truth, Kerwin, …start by stopping…move forwards by moving backwards…back to the light of truth.
Oh, and where does God say there are Ghosts?
See, Kerwin, you make God a liar….be careful you don't start blaspheming the Holy Spirit, too.
Ghosts, definition… Most definitions attribute 'Ghosts' as Nonexistent being….terms used in such activities as Spiritism and Seances.
The observer is usually made to see an apperition but which does not actually exist…only the observer's own mind making the apperition real to them…often drugs, or scented smoke are part of the 'accellerator' that brings on the vision. The observer may even hear the voice of the 'apperition', but this is usually due to the desparate desire of the observer to belief …the observer attends such session in a state of high anxiety and desparate desire for contact with the Spirit World, and therefore opens their mind to receive the haunting image…mirrors, scented smoke (marijuana?), drugs, strong anxiety, receptive mind, desparate,…a sure recipy for delusion by professional illusionists….
Kerwin, is this what you seek to bring to this forum, this thread, that proves that Spirits have bodies…
Sad man…er, boy!!!
Kerwin, isn't nearly 7:00pm. Isn't it time you got ready for bed? I put your teddy next to your pillow and said goodnight to it just as you asked. Don't forget to brush your teeth…and straight to bed, mind. I'll be up to check…
Irene,
What does Scriptures tell you that a 'Terrestial body' is?
Irene, what does Scriptures tell you that 'Celestial Body' is?
By now, Irene, it is clear there are tears in your eyes every time you post…tears brought on knowing that what you are posting is false.
Moreover, Irene, why do you want to believe that a Spirit has a body…when, by the very nature and definition of the word, 'Spirit', it has no body?
You don't show any 'proof' of anything, just keep posting the same verses as if somehow it will change anything…
Just as you keep posting, 'And his gown was dipped in blood', 'and on his thigh he has the name King of kings and Lord of lords'
Irene, in order to convince anyone of anything you need to stop simply repeating the same thing over and over else…..it becomes Spirit….you need to give your 'proofs' flesh and blood!!!
(This must be the only time that going from Spirit to Flesh is the positive thing to do…).Irene, Irene, Irene…. Look up the word Celestial???
Is this the only thing that keeps you in delusion? Try understanding that 'Celestial bodies' are bodies that give off light…Sun, Moon, Stars…
Is there a difference in German…is that what the problem is…Germans believe that Celestial means 'Heaven'….
No, Irene, 'Celestial' means 'of the HEAVENS' note the plural……
The people in Paul's days termed the Sky and the Galactic Space, 'the Heavens', and believed that the abode of God was in the Highest 'Heavens'…
“In the Beginning God created the …HEAVENS… and the earth”.God did not create 'Heaven'…but the 'HeavenS', the Galactic Space and the Skies.
Read the rest of Genesis 1 where 'Heavens' is clearly 'Skys'.
And further more, Irene, you lie…..
JustAskin has looked up the word 'Celestial' and 'Celestial body'….
How else do I say that virtually every dictionary, defines 'Celestial' as 'Sky' and 'Space'….and 'Celestial bodies' as 'Sun, Moon and Stars'.
Why, commonsense, really….
And therefore, Irene, it can only be concluded that it is YOU who is a deceiver….
So, in line with Mikeboll, I say:
! God Rebuke You !Irene, if no man is your leader, then stop what you are doing, now!
Irene,
Prove to me that you…have checked anything other than that ONE dictionary you claim to hold to that says, '….' what??? That Celestial means ..what??
Post a number of dictionary definitions for me, please.
Note, even Mikeboll did not do that, and you know how he likes to 'prove' things….did he quote, Wikipedia….ever wonder why not?? Have a look, Irene….
And those others in this thread…why have you not posted truth to your sistren, Irene, to help her out of her stupor.
Do you like contention? Are you not your sister's keeper?
Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 18 2010,07:01) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 17 2010,18:19) Kerwin, I was just saying how I see things. I personally don't believe in ghosts. I hope I didn't upset you. I apologize if I did. Mike – You asked if I believe Angels have wings. I said I do. But It's just the way I see it. Whether it's true or not I have no idea.
Irene, I can't see why divisions should be caused between people here just because they see thing's different. First it's Trinity, then it's preexistence, then it's begotten, now it's spirit's, and I think it's stupid. You should all stop it, and understand people see thing's different.
I think you are right Sis Karmarie. Different people see scriptures differently that is the reason why there are thousands of denominations and sects in Christianity. I don't blame them because they are all human beings with limited understanding. But the paradox of Christianity is blame game.Thanks and love to you
Adam
Adamthink again the Jewish people of today just like yesterday were divided just the same and they received the word of God,
I wondering why that is so
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 18 2010,03:46) Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 18 2010,01:01) Jesus Christ “is” come in the flesh. The “is” there shows it was not something He did only in the resurrection of His body, for He continues to live on in Heaven in that same glorified flesh and bone body today – up in Heaven, at the right hand of God, as we are repeatedly told in the New Testament. Jesus Christ “is” in glorified flesh today. Jesus Chris is come in the flesh! Anyone who says that Jesus is a spirit “is not of God,” but has been led into heresy by “that spirit of antichrist.” Which leads us to the last point.
Shimmer…………..This i totally agree with that, anyone who denies Jesus as coming in the Flesh into existence and still being a flesh human being is in error , and that is indeed the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist John was talking about. IMOpeace and love too you and yours…………………………gene
Gene I think it was you who helped me see this about the resurrection, in another thread, quite a while back. So thanks.Shimmer,
Be careful what you agree with,.What Gene has written is not quite what you think it means.
Gene is trying to force his claim that Jesus didn't exist before he came as man.
Read back Gene's post with this in mind.
Also, Gene is saying that Jesus is still in the Flesh…
How can Jesus be in the Flesh and in Heaven?
Gene must have been very tired, in a rush, or incredibly deceiving, as his post is a conglomeration of themes covered over with a bad coating of nonpreexistentism.
“Anyone who does not believe that Jesus came in the flesh” this is true but then Gene adds to truth with “…..into existence”.
Shimmer, did you miss that part….Gene is saying that this us when Jesus CAME INTO EXISTENCE as Anything…i.e. He was never in Heaven. So all the verses saying that he emptied himself of his divinity, he prayed to go back with his father, 'behold, i will SEND my servant (God is stating he bring forth into the world an existing entity)….many many more….1 Corinth 10:4 states that the 'Spiritual Rock' that the people drank from in the wilderness, was Christ.
Then, Shimmer, is Jesus still in the flesh?
Gene's post is ambiguous, and designed to confuse, with the basic tenet that Jesus came in the flesh…
Shimmer, do not rush to agree until you seen the actual truth…not the 'implied' truth…
Gene believes, from his post, that Jesus is still in the flesh… Is that what you believe?
Is Jesus in Heaven ruling as King in his father's kingdom? If yes, then how is he still flesh?
Shimmer, Jesus put off the flesh as he rose into the air in front of his disciples.
Jesus certainly has a body of flesh that is identifiable as him …when he comes to earth…but he put's it off when he returns to Heaven.
Gene, is either confused or a deceiver, or both.
JA, I had noticed what I had agreed with, and corrected my post to say the resurrection.
I thought that's what it means, that Jesus is in the flesh still now in Heaven, as a new creation, not a spirit being. JW's teach that Jesus is a Spirit being now. But the rest of Christianity teach Jesus is in the flesh. Still.
JA………….You are quite right I do not believe Jesus preexisted His berth on earth on that i agree, but that has nothing to do with me trying to deceive anyone i have never used that to deceive anyone that is exactly what i believe. I could say the same about you and others assumptions of His preexistences , other than in the plan and will of GOD. You or no one else have produced any evidence of any activity of Jesus prior to His earthly existence , If you have that evidence produce it or just admit you are speculating and try to be honest yourself instead of building up some kind of mental story about a super Angel , you want us to believe, no difference from the JW they believe Jesus was Micheal tha Arch Angel , now that is what is deception is my opinion. JA if you can not produce biblical proof of Preexistence then why ask us to believe it , as it is said , Helios Corpus, bring forth the body JA , no one else has and neither have you.
Peace and love…………………………………gene
Shimmer ……….Ja is right i do not believe Jesus preexisted his berth on earth that is true , but i never have said any difference , his accusing me trying to deceive thing is his alter ego at work again IMO, I have alway been Honest with my beliefs and tried to back them up with scriptures also. I also believe Jesus was raised with his body and ascended with that body and will return with that body , I do not believe in JA Spirit manufacturing a material body and it falling of like dust as He zooms through space or where ever he is going. He has produced (NO) evidence of this to support his assumptions which i could label as deceptions also, but will not be that rude to him. Spirit is what is in a BODY it is NOT the BODY it is (IN) . Spirit is the INTELLECT of that Body, It animates the body it is IN. All life forms outside of GOD Has a BODY of Some kind GOD has given it a BODY Just as He pleases. God himself lives vicariously (IN) all his creation. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Gene, I'm aware of your beliefs in pre-existance as you are aware of mine. So we disagree with that but I do agree with you on the resurrected Jesus is what I was saying. I agree with this that you said
Quote I also believe Jesus was raised with his body and ascended with that body and will return with that body And it's actually a really important thing. It seems that most here agree with the JW meaning of this that Jesus is spirit only. Well I don't. And it's something that I feel I have to defend for some reason.
Shimmer………That is what the teaching or SPIRIT (Intellect)of Antichrist is all about it is to deny Jesus' past and present existence as a flesh Human being, That you have absolutely right. This teaching separates Jesus from the rest of humanity , it is what separates Him from our (exact) identity . It doesn't take a genius to see how destructive it is to the Plan and Will of GOD. GOD is not saving Preexistent being He is dealing with Mankind who have flesh and bone bodies exactly like our brother Jesus.
They assume he did a body switch, but produce no scripture to prove it, So they grab straws and say flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of GOD O Will the kingdom of GOD in not flesh and blood anyway, but it can be (IN) flesh and blood . Jesus said they Kingdom come (How), by thy will being done, and that Will can be (IN) anyone. The kingdom of GOD is Spiritual it is not Flesh but to deny it can not be IN flesh and blood is ridiculous, it certainly was (IN) Jesus when he was flesh and blood that is for sure. It is amazing how many conclusions people jump to by past false teaching they have acquired over the years. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene
To all,
Jesus was risen in the flesh. He remains in the flesh and He will return in the flesh. All other teachings are lies and deceptions, which serve no other reason but a persons own failings and wrong predictions. So they say “OH BUT HE RETURNED IN SPIRIT…..WE JUST CANT SEE HIM……I WAS RIGHT” so they mislead the masses to believe them and not God.
Believe it or not – the choice is yours.
“'If therefore they tell you, 'Behold, he is in the wilderness,' don't go out; 'Behold, he is in the inner rooms,' don't believe it. For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man”.
Just Askin,
Where is the scripture to support your beliefs. From what I see there is nothing but the speculation of man based on their imagination. Pierre at least explained his beliefs. You instead speak your own word and do not attempt to support it with scripture. I am here to learn from God and not you or to share what I have come to believe and test it. If you believe something then show in scripture why you believe that. If you cannot then either you are not equipped to teach and/or it is doubtful what you say comes from God.
So please strive to learn from God and support what your life and doctrine according to the word of God. So we discuss what scripture means and perhaps therefore grow closer to God. Thank you!
Shimmer,
You confuse me as you words seem to conflict with one another. Perhaps that is because there is a battle with in you. First you seem to state all doctrines are the same so we should not disagree and then you speak of teaching that are lies and deceptions as well as one that is true. The last I agree with but the former I do not. I do agree that as much as possible we should strive to remain at peace with one another.
At the same time we are duty bound in love to rebuke our neighbor less we become an accessory after the fact in their sin. Some of us are still subject to sin and so we should in mercy choose to suffer that sin while striving to remove the chains of our brother with wisdom and gentleness. We should always stick to the true doctrine of Christ and apply it to our own lives.
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