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toby
why do you made this free comment to me? ;Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
this is in scriptures no???
Pierre
Quote Many people misunderstand Acts 1:11 to be saying that Jesus left as a man, and will return as such. But the meaning is that Jesus left on the clouds, and will return the same way. Perhaps you're one of these, Wm?
No Mike I believe scriptures “He will come back in the same way you saw him go.”Quote
Wm, flesh cannot be in heaven,
Please tell me where we are told this in scriptures. If you have nothing more than that one mis-quoted verse you always use, then the only question is, are you adding to scripture, or subtracting (after all you subtract words, to add meaning)Please consider that you cannot just remove words from scripture. I'm concerned that you don't seem to understand that. I'll keep you in my prayers.
Wm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2012,08:57) Quote (toby @ Feb. 01 2012,15:31) If the Spirit Body (as others say) has a spirit in it (In fact, by their definition this should say spiritS (Plural), seeing that they say the Spirit of Jesus is 'Love' and 'Compassion' and … many other things (Perhaps 'Legions' of spirits!!)) then does/do that/those spirits have bodies?
This is just one of the “slants” you've perpetrated on this thread, Toby.This thread was started in order to discuss whether or not SPIRIT BEINGS, SUCH AS ANGELS, have bodies in heaven. It was NOT meant to include such things as “team spirit”, or “the spirit of love”, etc.
This has been Gene's misunderstanding for over 400 pages now, and you are PURPOSELY playing into his misunderstanding.
Gene, along with everyone who has ever visited this site (except for you and Shimmer), believes that angels do indeed have bodies.
Hi Mikeboll.
Firstly, I am not, nor have ever, nor would ever, consider aspects of the Spirit as embodied Beings. It is you yourself who introduced the element, by claiming that my reference to 'the Spirit of Jesus resting with God' is 'Spirit of love (or words to that effect). Is it not also you who is impressing on Gene that: 'There is more than one meaning of Spirit'. I, myself, referred to it only once in terms of giving a full definition of Spirit – and once more when you said I had not done so. You knew that you could not account for how “Jesus' Spirit” resting with God had a body. Trying to force the issue of Spiritual first is against the Scriptures.
1 Corinthians 15: 45-49 states:
“Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven”.
Please note the following points:
1) verse 45: 'The First Adam' and 'The Last Adam' – both refer to Man, flesh and blood. I do NOT deny that the Last Adam has become a Spirit in Heaven – I have always said so and have never said otherwise.
2) verse 46: Mikeboll, does it not explicitly state that 'The Spiritual is not first'. Howbeit you say otherwise.
3) verse 47: Is a re-iteration of verse 45: Man – and – Man.
4) verse 48: The man of dust (Adam)- a sinful man – The Heavenly Man (Jesus) – a sinless man. Once again: Man – and Man.
5) verse 49: What does the word 'Image' mean? Does a Spirit have an Image (as in, of another Spirit?). No, of course not. Scriptures even says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. This mean a physical, visual or figurative likeness of another thing. In Jesus' case it refers to his Spiritual nature, in other words, those aspects of the Spirit actioned in the flesh: Caring, Nurturing, building up, compassionate, wise, empathic, love, strength, power, righteousness, patience, a rewarder, a punisher, a leader, a delegator, a teacher (More and better): This is the image of God. Is mankind not also made in the image of God? Are we not (All those things) but less able at them?
So what is the Image of the man of Dust (Adam)?
And what is the Image of the Heavenly man?
Note, again: Man and Man!Even verse 50 is in reference to Mankind: There is no Corrupt Spirit that can become Incorrupt. A fallen (Corrupted) Angel Spirit is a doomed Angel Spirit. So clearly it is the Flesh which is corrupt that must be changed and become Incorrupt. The verse is implying that a person of corruption (Sinful) cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. It is not a reference to Flesh and Blood going into Heaven although this also true. It is about the sinful state – the sinful flesh and blood (Man) cannot be part of God's (new) Kingdom.
6) Verse 52: States explicitly: 'For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised Incorruptible, and we (Those still alive) shall (also) be changed.
Mikeboll, just for emphasis: 'The dead will be raised Incorruptible'.
Who are the inspired writers of the Gospel?
Who had first hand knowledge and experience (to their painful deaths) of what is written in the Scriptures.“Daniel 12: 2: 'And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt”.
Hi Mikeboll.
You cannot post to me saying what I believe
You can do a principle but in this case you are wrong.
Direct Scriptural words that hold no possibility of ambiguity: “The Spirit was not First.”
The reason for this is because the verse, indeed the whole paragraph and chapter are about Mankind.
Mankind being raised from the dead and attaining everlasting life.
All of those attaining everlasting life – not just those who will abide in heaven.Moses sinned and could not enter into the land.
This is not his flesh and bone and blood that could not enter for clearly he could if he defied God.
But he did not as despite his sin he was – 'to God' – a holy man.
It was the sin of his flesh not the flesh itself that was his downfall in that regard.
Therefore, as in many circumstances, biblical events are repeated in Scriptures.
Many of which Jesus himself and his disciples uses:
'As in the days of Noah…'; 'Remember the sign of Jonah'; 'Jacob was figuratively dead and figuratively raised up again'; etc.
That last example has an add on on that at his raising up – Jacob became, figuratively, the 'Only Son of Abraham'!!!Where Jesus is the exception, if you need to have one, is that he is the only one that is raised up 'Alone'.
(there is also that he was the first but that is not classed as an exception, per se)
All others, of the first resurrection, are raised up (and changed at their raising up) together at the last trumpet.
Then Jesus will appear with the clouds and every eye shall behold him.
Do the dead have eyes that see?
Then it must be those who are alive.
And if alive then also already changed.
Then they rise up in the air to meet with Jesus.
This is the step by step process as outlined by scriptures – can you prove otherwise?
Perhaps now we can get back to 'Do Spirits of Heaven have bodies – how about: God, Jesus 'In Heaven' and Angels (Holy and Demonic)'?Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,09:59) toby why do you made this free comment to me? ;Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
this is in scriptures no???
Pierre
Hi Terraricca.
The post was to Mikeboll.
You asked in your previous post why I don't post scriptures.
I was showing you that I was posting Scriptures.
And by the way, thanks for your support for 'Spirit was not first'.
Maybe you could post that to others who say 'Spirit WAS first' in context of the discussion (actually its off topic anyway).Quote (toby @ Feb. 03 2012,05:13) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,09:59) toby why do you made this free comment to me? ;Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
this is in scriptures no???
Pierre
Hi Terraricca.
The post was to Mikeboll.
You asked in your previous post why I don't post scriptures.
I was showing you that I was posting Scriptures.
And by the way, thanks for your support for 'Spirit was not first'.
Maybe you could post that to others who say 'Spirit WAS first' in context of the discussion (actually its off topic anyway).
tobythis spiritual second and the carnal first is only valid on earth
right ?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2012,04:05) Quote (toby @ Feb. 03 2012,05:13) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,09:59) toby why do you made this free comment to me? ;Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
this is in scriptures no???
Pierre
Hi Terraricca.
The post was to Mikeboll.
You asked in your previous post why I don't post scriptures.
I was showing you that I was posting Scriptures.
And by the way, thanks for your support for 'Spirit was not first'.
Maybe you could post that to others who say 'Spirit WAS first' in context of the discussion (actually its off topic anyway).
tobythis spiritual second and the carnal first is only valid on earth
right ?
Pierre
Does anyone on here believe what Paul said? Types shadows and alogories of thisng? Look at this in this way. When the high priest went in the Holy Place and returned quickly all was allright and ok, BUT if he went in and tarried long, that was a sign of the wraft of God coming on the people. So look at this there are 2 kind of believers today. 1-The first is that Jesus ics coming back he has been gone a long time 2000 years and will return some day. 2- The other know that he has already returned and is already here. I am not waiting on Jesus Christ to came back. The bible says when you do it to the least of these my brethern you have done it unto me. So I daily recognize the body of Jesus Christ, members in particular. I am born or God so what does that make me? I am bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. You might not be able to see but like Paul after the scales feel from his eyes he was not blind anymore, dont be blind open your spiritual eyes and you can see HE IS HERE. How long has he been here? Since the day of Pentocost, do you see him?Quote (Delriomike @ Feb. 03 2012,12:38) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 03 2012,04:05) Quote (toby @ Feb. 03 2012,05:13) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,09:59) toby why do you made this free comment to me? ;Scriptures clearly says (Hey Terraricca!) 'The Spiritual did not come first. The natural, then the Spiritual'
this is in scriptures no???
Pierre
Hi Terraricca.
The post was to Mikeboll.
You asked in your previous post why I don't post scriptures.
I was showing you that I was posting Scriptures.
And by the way, thanks for your support for 'Spirit was not first'.
Maybe you could post that to others who say 'Spirit WAS first' in context of the discussion (actually its off topic anyway).
tobythis spiritual second and the carnal first is only valid on earth
right ?
Pierre
Does anyone on here believe what Paul said? Types shadows and alogories of thisng? Look at this in this way. When the high priest went in the Holy Place and returned quickly all was allright and ok, BUT if he went in and tarried long, that was a sign of the wraft of God coming on the people. So look at this there are 2 kind of believers today. 1-The first is that Jesus ics coming back he has been gone a long time 2000 years and will return some day. 2- The other know that he has already returned and is already here. I am not waiting on Jesus Christ to came back. The bible says when you do it to the least of these my brethern you have done it unto me. So I daily recognize the body of Jesus Christ, members in particular. I am born or God so what does that make me? I am bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. You might not be able to see but like Paul after the scales feel from his eyes he was not blind anymore, dont be blind open your spiritual eyes and you can see HE IS HERE. How long has he been here? Since the day of Pentocost, do you see him?
delyour comment wanted to say but did not say ,so what do you want to say ?? say it
Quote HE IS HERE. How long has he been here? Since the day of Pentocost, do you see him? this I do not believe but EDJ does
so prove it by scriptures that it is that way ,EDJ never could
Pierre
Hi Terrarica.
The spiritual body was not first – the natural body was first and afterwards the spiritual body. This is exactly what Scriptures says and everything else linked to it exactly as apostle Paul outline to the Corinthians and subsequently to all future mankind from that time.
This aspect is related to the Flesh in the physical world which is why I asked Mikeboll if we could move forward and back to the topic at hand.
It might surprise you to realise that it is not I that is lacking the wisdom concerning this issue nor many others. Therefore there is no need to 'teach me' what I already know.
I will respond to your posted questions but could you make them to be as concerning the thread topic – thanks.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 01 2012,19:46) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Many people misunderstand Acts 1:11 to be saying that Jesus left as a man, and will return as such. But the meaning is that Jesus left on the clouds, and will return the same way. Perhaps you're one of these, Wm?
No Mike I believe scriptures “He will come back in the same way you saw him go.”
I believe them too, Wm. He will come back on the clouds, just as he left on the clouds.Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 01 2012,19:46) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
Wm, flesh cannot be in heaven,
Please tell me where we are told this in scriptures.
Heaven is filled with spiritual beings, Wm. Jesus said that spirits do not have flesh and bones. And Paul said that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom (which is currently in heaven).Flesh is something that:
A. Spirit beings LIKE JESUS don't have.
B. Cannot inherit God's heavenly Kingdom, of which Jesus is ruler.Mike,
You're the one who is big into not answering questions, Please tell me where we are told in scriptures that “flesh cannot be in heaven”.Thank you – Wm
Wm,
WHO exactly lives in heaven? What's your best guess? Spirit beings like angels? Or human beings like us?
SPIRITS do not have flesh and bone, and they live in God's heavenly Kingdom – a place that flesh and blood cannot inherit.
1+1=2, Wm.
SeekingTruth, are you saying that Jesus is in his flesh and bone body in Heaven?
Even Mikeboll has conceded that Spirits do not have bodies, and that Jesus is currently a Spirit Being. He has not come again yet.
When he does come again he will regain his recognised visible, material and Spiritual flesh and bone body and his invisible, immaterial and Incorporeal Spirit will be in it, making him a Human Being again. Those saved to the Heavenly realm will likewise do the same as and when they feel the need. They then will enjoy the spiritual fruits of the spiritual flesh just as Jesus said, 'I will not drink the fruit of the vine again until I come again in the kingdom of God'.
Mike,
I'm not asking for your best guess, so are you basically admitting that there is no scriptural support for your claim that “flesh cannot be in heaven”. Yes or NoWm
To all,
The circle has closed: In the beginning, Angels Spirits were able to manifest temporary bodies and interact with mankind which led to the Nephilims.
This was an abomination and thereafter God banned Angels from manifesting temporary bodies except when he permitted them on a direct assignment.
It is an interesting point in fact that the Angels were more often than not anxious to return to Heaven after their assignment and did not relish being detained in interchanges with humans in case they sinned in some way by the persuasion of a human. Temptation to enjoy fragrant meat for their temporary body, or unwittingly reveal a heavenly knowledge, are examples of sins they could commit.
The new Spiritual Body will be the permanent body that those Of humankind who attain To the heavenly abode will manifest when they come 'down' to earth. They wil be recognised as who they were (There is Paul, there is Jesus, John, Peter, Mary, others). Likewise, Those who attain to paradise earth, will equally be in permanent, everlasting Spiritual Bodies which will enjoy the fruits of the earth. So now, Angels will take a backseat in overseeing the welfare of mankind, as Scriptures says: 'For he (God) has not left the world in the charge of Angels'.
Satan is the most powerful and intelligent of all Spirit Beings (Jesus excepting) – has anyone seen Satan in his 'Spiritual Body'? Any takers?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 02 2012,17:32) Mike,
I'm not asking for your best guess, so are you basically admitting that there is no scriptural support for your claim that “flesh cannot be in heaven”. Yes or NoWm
I've shown you the scriptures, Wm. 1+1=2, remember?Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31) Even Mikeboll has conceded that Spirits do not have bodies, and that Jesus is currently a Spirit Being.
Is that a lie you're telling about me, Toby? People can receive tiles here for that.Toby, will God leave us naked in heaven? Or will He give us a spiritual tent to replace the earthly tent we've lost? Which one does scripture say?
Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31) SeekingTruth, are you saying that Jesus is in his flesh and bone body in Heaven?
Wm?Toby,
The point I'm trying make is, it is being claimed that “flesh cannot be in heaven” because scripture tells us so. I do not know of any scripture to that effect and the one being used is being changed in an attempt to find support. If you know of a scripture please provide it otherwise let's not go beyond what scripture says.Just to be clear I have no problem speculating beyond what scripture tells us (as long as it does not conflict with the whole of scripture) just note it as such (and realize you can not be dogmatic about it).
Wm
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