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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 05 2011,14:18) Have you read my last two posts to Gene, Shimmer? Maybe YOU could explain why the disciples saw a BODY walking on the water, yet still thought they were seeing a SPIRIT. Do you think it was because Istari and Gene were not around back then to explain to them that spirit beings don't have bodies of their own? Quote It was during the trip through Samaria that Jesus taught one of the most basic truths about God found anywhere in the Bible. Picture yourself at a well by the side of the road near the little village of Sychar and listen to our Lord’s conversation with a Samaritan woman. She had been married five times, and was at that moment living with a man to whom she was not married. Jesus had worked the conversation around to spiritual things and was responding to the woman’s comment about where people ought to worship: “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father. You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers” (John 4:21-23).
It was at that point in the conversation that Jesus said something about God which had never been clearly said before. “God is spirit,” he said, “and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth”.
There is no article in the Greek text before the word spirit, and that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word. Furthermore, the word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God is spirit.
But what does that mean? Some have a strange idea about what a spirit is. That is particularly true of children. To them spirits mean ghosts. When two of my sons were small we overhead them talking about ghosts. The five-year-old said, “Did you know that God is a ghost? He’s the Holy Ghost.” His four-year-old brother answered with great theological insight, “Yes, but he’s like Casper, the friendly ghost”. Is that really what it means for God to be spirit? No!!
Now read this:
Because, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools: And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping animals. – Romans 1:21
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 08 2011,07:31) Mike……….Nothing “fishy” about it , Jesus just told them that Spirit do not have flesh and bone bodies as he HAD.
There you go again, Gene…………….adding words into the scriptures. That is one habit you're going to have to break someday if you ever hope to know the TRUTH of the scriptures. Because the TRUTH of the scriptures is taught by the words as they are…………………..not by those words PLUS YOUR ADDITIONS.Now the TRUTH of the matter is that Jesus told the disciples, (who were SEEING his BODY and still thinking he was a SPIRIT), that spirits don't have FLESH and BONE. He said NOTHING about spirits not having BODIES, did he?
Gene, I can only discuss scriptural things with you up until the point you start adding your own words into the scriptures and then ask me to defend my beliefs against your new, self-written scriptures. I cannot defend my beliefs against your homemade scriptures, because you can make them say whatever you want them to say.
And if you are happy changing the scriptures until they teach what you want them to teach, more power to you. But don't expect ME to have a discussion about your new, fabricated scriptures, okay?
On the other hand, if you want to address my last post to you WITHOUT adding the word “bodies” to Luke 24:39, I will happily await your response to the questions I asked.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,10:06)
You are using two different measurements as those that claim that flesh can’t contradict scripture that states that it might.
No I'm not, Kerwin. Scripture CLEARLY says that flesh cannot INHERIT the Kingdom of God. It says nothing about God's ability to take a flesh man up to heaven for a quick peek if He wants to. So even if Paul did go to heaven in his flesh body, that is not to say he had as of that time INHERITED citizenship in God's Kingdom, right?Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,10:06)
Scripture also does not state or demonstrate Jesus transformed into a spirit being upon ascending to heaven so insisting it is so…………
You are correct that scripture does not clearly state that Jesus' body was transformed upon his ascension to heaven. What we DO know, however, is that Jesus was raised to life in a flesh body, and flesh cannot inherit God's Kingdom.I've done the math in my head, and have concluded that Jesus' flesh body must have been transformed to a spiritual one for him to have inherited God's Kingdom. Your calculator may produce different results.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,10:06)
1 Corinthians speaks of the resurrection of the dead in general so what in the context would lead anyone to conclude that verse 50 was speaking of a more select group?
Read it again, Kerwin. In fact, read just about anything Paul ever wrote. You'll notice that Paul always includes the listeners/readers in “WE” and “US”. And the things Paul speaks of “WE” and “US” doing is always the things reserved only for the saints. It is like Paul always assumes he is speaking to only saints, who will have their second life in heaven.1 Corinthians 15
35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Do you see what I mean, Kerwin? Paul doesn't even seem to consider those of us who read his words but will be raised to everlasting life on the new earth. It's like he considers EVERYONE to whom he is speaking to be of the saint class, who will live in heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2011,10:06)
It is from 1 Corinthians 15: 12-18 and 27-29 that I come to understand that the chapter is speaking of a resurrection into an immortal flesh body.
As I understand what I quoted above, there are earthly, natural bodies made of flesh. And there are heavenly, spiritual bodies which are not made of flesh.peace,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2011,16:11) Terricca…………Show us a scripture that says it (the kingdom of God) can not indwell a flash and blood body then. Jesus seem to think it could , “for the kingdom of God comes not with observation it is “with in” YOU , my my, seen you have another Mystery Religious dilemma you preexistences have created by saying flesh and blood can not go into the kingdom of GOD right?. IMO peace and love……………………………………………………..gene
Geneok,Gene; please answer those questions for me;
1)is the kingdom of God in the unbelievers ?if not why ?
if yes why ?2) if Jesus said that the kingdom dwells in you ,what that mean ?
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2011,11:08) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 08 2011,07:31) Mike……….Nothing “fishy” about it , Jesus just told them that Spirit do not have flesh and bone bodies as he HAD.
There you go again, Gene…………….adding words into the scriptures. That is one habit you're going to have to break someday if you ever hope to know the TRUTH of the scriptures. Because the TRUTH of the scriptures is taught by the words as they are…………………..not by those words PLUS YOUR ADDITIONS.Now the TRUTH of the matter is that Jesus told the disciples, (who were SEEING his BODY and still thinking he was a SPIRIT), that spirits don't have FLESH and BONE. He said NOTHING about spirits not having BODIES, did he?
Gene, I can only discuss scriptural things with you up until the point you start adding your own words into the scriptures and then ask me to defend my beliefs against your new, self-written scriptures. I cannot defend my beliefs against your homemade scriptures, because you can make them say whatever you want them to say.
And if you are happy changing the scriptures until they teach what you want them to teach, more power to you. But don't expect ME to have a discussion about your new, fabricated scriptures, okay?
On the other hand, if you want to address my last post to you WITHOUT adding the word “bodies” to Luke 24:39, I will happily await your response to the questions I asked.
peace,
mike
Mikeboll, belief in “Ghosts” have always been around. People tend to imagine things in their own mind, and apparently the demons then play on that and can appear as “Ghosts” or make themself out to be dead loved ones. It's like if I imagined I heard someone walking in the dark toward my bedroom, I could imagine every creak to be a person. Just like if you believe in Ghosts, then any flicker or noise or shadow you would believe to be a Ghost. Then the demons play on that fear or belief. According to sources like the JWs, the goal is to make out that the dead continue to live on in another spiritual realm. Didn't you know that? The question you are asking Gene does not make sense, and does not prove anything. Just because the Disciples “thought they say a Ghost” does not prove spirits or God has a body. Only that spirits can appear to be in a body. Can't see anyone denying that.Did you not see the verse I gave you above?
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 08 2011,19:58) The question you are asking Gene does not make sense, and does not prove anything. Just because the Disciples “thought they say a Ghost” does not prove spirits or God has a body.
But the fact that Jesus corrected them, NOT BY TELLING THEM THAT SPIRITS DON'T HAVE BODIES AT ALL, but by telling them that spirits don't have flesh and bone, adds to all of the other proof I've already showed you.Shimmer, if you want ME to discuss YOUR thoughts in this thread, then YOU have to reciprocate.
I have been waiting a long time for your answer about Phil 3:20-22. If you don't want to address my points, then why should I address yours?
Btw, there was nothing in your post at the top of this page that said anything about spirit beings having or not having bodies. Nor was the post addressed to anyone in particular. Nor was there a question posed to me. These are the reasons I didn't respond to it.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 09 2011,14:22) But the fact that Jesus corrected them, NOT BY TELLING THEM THAT SPIRITS DON'T HAVE BODIES AT ALL, but by telling them that spirits don't have flesh and bone, adds to all of the other proof I've already showed you.
Verily I say to you, Unless ye are converted and become as little children, ye will not at all enter into the kingdom of the heavens.Quote Shimmer, if you want ME to discuss YOUR thoughts in this thread, then YOU have to reciprocate. I have been waiting a long time for your answer about Phil 3:20-22. If you don't want to address my points, then why should I address yours?
I HAVE answered your questions, I'm sure Mike. It's just you don't know or understand my answers. Just like the one I gave you above. To you, it won't directly answer your question. However, you have to understand what I'm meaning or trying to say. What I'm saying is that you complicate things too much.
Quote I have been waiting a long time for your answer about Phil 3:20-22. Quote Phil 3:20-22 For our citizenship is in the heavens, whence also a Saviour we await — the Lord Jesus Christ — who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.
Says Paul. What did Jesus or Peter, or James say? I had not read Pauls writings untill I came here.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:21) Kerwin you are searching for what scriptures do not teach, and so you are looking to justify your personal believes ,
this is not the way to the truth of God,
let your yes mean yes or your no mean no,
scriptures say flesh and blood can NOT go to heaven
so let see your scriptures that says YES
?Pierre
Pierre,Jesus quoted a scripture and then explained why that scripture infered there is a resurrection of the dead.
Why did he choose to do that?
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:41) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:21) Kerwin you are searching for what scriptures do not teach, and so you are looking to justify your personal believes ,
this is not the way to the truth of God,
let your yes mean yes or your no mean no,
scriptures say flesh and blood can NOT go to heaven
so let see your scriptures that says YES
?Pierre
Pierre,Jesus quoted a scripture and then explained why that scripture infered there is a resurrection of the dead.
Why did he choose to do that?
kerwincould you show the scripture in question ?
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:41) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:21) Kerwin you are searching for what scriptures do not teach, and so you are looking to justify your personal believes ,
this is not the way to the truth of God,
let your yes mean yes or your no mean no,
scriptures say flesh and blood can NOT go to heaven
so let see your scriptures that says YES
?Pierre
Pierre,Jesus quoted a scripture and then explained why that scripture infered there is a resurrection of the dead.
Why did he choose to do that?
kerwincould you show the scripture in question ?
Pierre,When I get access to scripture again I will strive to do as you request. God willing.
Note: Added acknowledgement of God's authority.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:45) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:41) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:21) Kerwin you are searching for what scriptures do not teach, and so you are looking to justify your personal believes ,
this is not the way to the truth of God,
let your yes mean yes or your no mean no,
scriptures say flesh and blood can NOT go to heaven
so let see your scriptures that says YES
?Pierre
Pierre,Jesus quoted a scripture and then explained why that scripture infered there is a resurrection of the dead.
Why did he choose to do that?
kerwincould you show the scripture in question ?
Pierre,When I get access to scripture again I will strive to do as you request. God willing.
Note: Added acknowledgement of God's authority.
kerwinyou can go to“ E sword `and download the free program in your computer
http://www.e-sword.net/
PierreMike,
Quote No I'm not, Kerwin. Scripture CLEARLY says that flesh cannot INHERIT the Kingdom of God. It says nothing about God's ability to take a flesh man up to heaven for a quick peek if He wants to. So even if Paul did go to heaven in his flesh body, that is not to say he had as of that time INHERITED citizenship in God's Kingdom, right? I was not speaking of “inherit” in what you quoted of me but I was instead speaking of “enter”.
I did make the point that it is not the current physical kingdom of God that those that believe will inherit but it is the new heaven and new earth that are to come.
Quote You are correct that scripture does not clearly state that Jesus' body was transformed upon his ascension to heaven. What we DO know, however, is that Jesus was raised to life in a flesh body, and flesh cannot inherit God's Kingdom. Scripture does state that those that walk according to the flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Quote I've done the math in my head, and have concluded that Jesus' flesh body must have been transformed to a spiritual one for him to have inherited God's Kingdom. So you infer it from your understanding of Scripture.
Quote Your calculator may produce different results. It does as I understand different values for the variables.
Quote Read it again, Kerwin. In fact, read just about anything Paul ever wrote. You'll notice that Paul always includes the listeners/readers in “WE” and “US”. And the things Paul speaks of “WE” and “US” doing is always the things reserved only for the saints. It is like Paul always assumes he is speaking to only saints, who will have their second life in heaven. So you understand that 1 Corinthians 15 is speaking of only a select group of the righteous and not all of the righteous. From that you infer the first half of verse 50 is speaking only of the kingdom of heaven and not the whole kingdom of God.
Quote 1 Corinthians 15 35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”
40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
You quoted the above passage and I ask you to compare is with Romans 8:19-23 that also speaks of the “redemption of our body”.
Quote Romans 8 King James Version (KJV)
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Quote Do you see what I mean, Kerwin? Paul doesn't even seem to consider those of us who read his words but will be raised to everlasting life on the new earth. It's like he considers EVERYONE to whom he is speaking to be of the saint class, who will live in heaven. As far as I know, every believer is a saint and they will live primarily in the new earth in the time to come. I am not sure what scriptures convinced anyone of anything else or why they understand these hypothetical scriptures as they do.
Quote As I understand what I quoted above, there are earthly, natural bodies made of flesh. And there are heavenly, spiritual bodies which are not made of flesh. Spiritual is an adjective that basically seems to mean “of God” in most if not all usages. Here are a few examples from scriptures that I have selected as the spiritual humans are not spirit beings and the spiritual is contrasted with carnal.
Quote Hosea 9
King James Version (KJV)7The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.
Quote 1 Corinthians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Quote 1 Corinthians 3:1
King James Version (KJV)1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Quote Romans 7:14
King James Version (KJV)14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Edited to remove duplicate line I missed when going over it before posting.
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:54) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,23:45) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:41) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:21) Kerwin you are searching for what scriptures do not teach, and so you are looking to justify your personal believes ,
this is not the way to the truth of God,
let your yes mean yes or your no mean no,
scriptures say flesh and blood can NOT go to heaven
so let see your scriptures that says YES
?Pierre
Pierre,Jesus quoted a scripture and then explained why that scripture infered there is a resurrection of the dead.
Why did he choose to do that?
kerwincould you show the scripture in question ?
Pierre,When I get access to scripture again I will strive to do as you request. God willing.
Note: Added acknowledgement of God's authority.
kerwinyou can go to“ E sword `and download the free program in your computer
http://www.e-sword.net/
Pierre
Piere,Thank you but the situation is that I am currently using someone elses computer and they have a policy that bans downloads and limits time to certain sites including online scriptures. I have better access during the days but have limited time to use it.
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 08 2011,22:36) I HAVE answered your questions, I'm sure Mike. It's just you don't know or understand my answers. Just like the one I gave you above. To you, it won't directly answer your question. However, you have to understand what I'm meaning or trying to say. What I'm saying is that you complicate things too much.
Hi Shimmer,Your last sentence drastically contradicts the other ones!
You tell me that I must “read between the lines” to figure out what you're saying, but then say that I complicate things!
I'll tell you what I told Ed yesterday: PLEASE SPEAK TO ME PLAINLY FROM NOW ON.
Phil 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Now if you don't mind, tell me if you think Paul was anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a body he wouldn't even need in heaven. He says “so that they will be like his glorious body”. Does that mean Jesus DOES have a body in heaven, or DOESN'T?
Please, answer me in DIRECT and PLAIN words, Shimmer.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,11:24) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 09 2011,22:41) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 09 2011,02:21) Kerwin you are searching for what scriptures do not teach, and so you are looking to justify your personal believes ,
this is not the way to the truth of God,
let your yes mean yes or your no mean no,
scriptures say flesh and blood can NOT go to heaven
so let see your scriptures that says YES
?Pierre
Pierre,Jesus quoted a scripture and then explained why that scripture infered there is a resurrection of the dead.
Why did he choose to do that?
kerwincould you show the scripture in question ?
Pierre,Quote Matthew 22 New International Version (NIV)
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
The passage he quotes is Exodus 3:6.
Kerwin
Quote Pierre, Quote
Matthew 22New International Version (NIV)
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
The passage he quotes is Exodus 3:6.
yes those words are said to make us understand that we are not dead when the flesh is gone ,but we will be declared dead after we have been judged either for live or for destruction,until that time we are still alive in our soul,but inactive.
but that scripture does not promote the idea that flesh and blood lives in heaven,all those called by name are dead as for the flesh ,but judgement has not yet been done,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,11:21) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Quote
Matthew 22New International Version (NIV)
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
The passage he quotes is Exodus 3:6.
yes those words are said to make us understand that we are not dead when the flesh is gone ,but we will be declared dead after we have been judged either for live or for destruction,until that time we are still alive in our soul,but inactive.
but that scripture does not promote the idea that flesh and blood lives in heaven,all those called by name are dead as for the flesh ,but judgement has not yet been done,
Pierre
Pierre,My point is that Jesus is demonstrating to us that quoting a scripture and pointing out what that scripture infers is a way of sharing our understandings.
I was not using it to make the points that flesh can enter the current heavens. Paul already made the point that it might when he spoke of a man that was snatched up into the third heaven either in bordy or out of body.
The question is can flesh “inherit” the physical kingdom of heaven not if it can “enter”.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,23:42) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,11:21) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Quote
Matthew 22New International Version (NIV)
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
The passage he quotes is Exodus 3:6.
yes those words are said to make us understand that we are not dead when the flesh is gone ,but we will be declared dead after we have been judged either for live or for destruction,until that time we are still alive in our soul,but inactive.
but that scripture does not promote the idea that flesh and blood lives in heaven,all those called by name are dead as for the flesh ,but judgement has not yet been done,
Pierre
Pierre,My point is that Jesus is demonstrating to us that quoting a scripture and pointing out what that scripture infers is a way of sharing our understandings.
I was not using it to make the points that flesh can enter the current heavens. Paul already made the point that it might when he spoke of a man that was snatched up into the third heaven either in bordy or out of body.
The question is can flesh “inherit” the physical kingdom of heaven not if it can “enter”.
KerwinNO,but it can benefit of that kingdom ,because it is that kingdom that will rule the earth
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 11 2011,10:48) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 10 2011,23:42) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 10 2011,11:21) Kerwin Quote Pierre, Quote
Matthew 22New International Version (NIV)
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
The passage he quotes is Exodus 3:6.
yes those words are said to make us understand that we are not dead when the flesh is gone ,but we will be declared dead after we have been judged either for live or for destruction,until that time we are still alive in our soul,but inactive.
but that scripture does not promote the idea that flesh and blood lives in heaven,all those called by name are dead as for the flesh ,but judgement has not yet been done,
Pierre
Pierre,My point is that Jesus is demonstrating to us that quoting a scripture and pointing out what that scripture infers is a way of sharing our understandings.
I was not using it to make the points that flesh can enter the current heavens. Paul already made the point that it might when he spoke of a man that was snatched up into the third heaven either in bordy or out of body.
The question is can flesh “inherit” the physical kingdom of heaven not if it can “enter”.
KerwinNO,but it can benefit of that kingdom ,because it is that kingdom that will rule the earth
Pierre
Pierre,Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
Kerwin
Quote Pierre, Is it our bodies God will rull or is it our character?
but LOVE will remain'' do you remember those words from Paul ? did you know the faith of Abraham ? stay faithful even doe God ask him to sacrifice his only son ?
do you have see and understood Christ LOVE for his father our God and his ,?the question you should ask DO I HAVE THE LOVE TO LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ?
Pierre
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