Do spirits have bodies?

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,20:47)

Doesn't say in there that Angels or God has a body does it?

Doesn't say they don't, does it?

I found quotes from Origen, Bernard, and Augustine in that same source you quoted where they say God ALONE doesn't have a body, and all other things, including angels, do.

I don't care what any man says, including the ones Istari linked us to. I agree with those men only because their conclusion is the SCRIPTURAL one.

Shimmer, was Paul anxious to recieve a new glorious body that he wouldn't even need in heaven?

Does Jesus now have a glorious new body in heaven? Or did he leave his new body hanging in the “Earth Closet” for when he comes back?

July 13, 2011 at 3:03 am#252191

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,20:53)

Istari and Gene I think we are really wasting our time here.

Why do you lump Gene in with you two? Gene believes that angels DO have bodies.

Btw Gene, I await your explanation about the kind of bodies angels have.

July 13, 2011 at 3:09 am#252192

Participant

Terraricca,
Once again I have no idea what you just said.

If I did I would answer you.

Perhaps someone else could clarify it for me?

To TRY to answer:

First up, Terraricca, the THREAD TOPIC is 'DO SPIRITS (Angel, God, the Holy Spirit) have Bodies (In Heaven) (To clarify – this was known from the start so don't say I'm adding it in now – that was ALWAYS the understanding. I see a few posts back that MIKEBOLL is claiming that it is Istari and Shimmer who have ADULTERATED the thread because He, Mikeboll, has always been trying to speak of Spirits … Yet, it was Mikeboll who brought the 1 Corin 25 to the thread as his ONLY attempt at proof… Oh boy!)

There is nothing said in 1 Corinthians 15 that pertains to SPIRIT creatures. The term used is SPIRITUAL BODY… Spiritual – is not SPIRIT… it certainly can mean 'Of the Spirit' but please show a sentence USING IT.

I have 'begged' Mikeboll and anyone to give such a verse – and to date not one person has – I think not one person CAN…

Ok, I have also 'begged' Mikeboll and anyone to give a definition of SPIRIT so we all understand what we are talking about – no one has answered …why?

It seems noone wants unity of thought – just division. Or they KNOW THEY ARE WRONG SO THEY KEEP QUIET hoping the moment will pass – like Adam and Eve trying to 'hide' from God – tuh – as if!!!

Terraricca,
In the beginning… God created man from the dust of the earth…and blew the breathe of life into his nostril…and the MAN became a living SOUL.
So, there is a BODY…There is SPIRIT (The breathe) …and there is a Soul…

It is said 'The Souls of the dead …' does this mean body? Perhaps – or perhaps not…
For it is also said 'Let not your Soul be troubled…' does this mean SPIRIT – I do not know…

No one has ever been able to define EXACTLY what a SOUL is – and I don't pretend to know either… As many definitions that you read there are as many different opinions.

So we cannot discuss 'Body' and 'Soul' for that is futile.

We can discuss BODY and SPIRIT though.

Mankind is A MATERIAL ENTITY IN A PHYSICAL WORLD.
Man is made a BODY consisting of 'Dust of the earth' ( this means Chemical elements like CARBON, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Hydrogen, other…) and an Invisible and IMMATERIAL ENTITY called SPIRIT that animates the body, empowers it – in a similar way that a Car is a body AS a vehicle and the driver IN IT is the INTELLIGENCE behind the animation of the vehicle.
That is, the vehicle is as good as DEAD without a driver.
The driver sustains the vehicle. Fills it with fuel, washes it, waters it, cleans it, replenishes lost oils . Replaces worn parts… Directs the motion and navigation. Let's the vehicle rest or exerts in speed.

This is like the body…

The Spirit is the DRIVING FORCE… the intelligence in the body.

Gene is right concerning the human, and animal, bird, fish, insect, even plant – every LIVING THING has a SPIRIT in it of greater or lesser degree… Every living thing…
There are also NON INTELLIGENT SPIRITS like WIND, Waves and Fire.
Why? Because all these things in the Physical world are FORCES, POWERS, ENERGY FILLED BODIES…
The non intelligent forces are like AUTOMATONS. they do ONLY WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN PROGRAMMED TO DO… with no sense of regard – so they have counteractive partners: Water and fire, Wind and Fixed objects, waves and shores. Each acts counter to each other to greater or lesser degrees according to God's requirement to shape the world.
These forces are DANGEROUS TO MAN but a man with FAITH, the KEY, can subdue even the fiercest force, because we, Human beings, have SPIRITS that are not like the animals, birds, fish and insects.
We have a SPIRIT that directly knows God and can accommodate the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT which is an OMNIPOTENT power and intelligence.

Now, Terraricca, this thread is not about HUMAN SPIRITS, but ANGEL SPIRITS…

Angel spirits are not the same as HUMAN SPIRITS.

Human Spirits cannot function without a Body (as Gene says).
Unless the body of a human is sustained by a SPIRITUAL FORCE the body cannot remain living…
In Scriptures there are events portrayed where someone has been transported IN SPIRIT to some place heavenly (Glorious) – In actual fact, the Spirit never LEAVES the Body, but reaches outside of the body by the power of another greater Spirit (an Angel of immense strength – Power – not your every day Angel!)
If one were to watch someone in that state they would appear to be either in a stupor, lying prone but still breathing irratically… Or acting as though mad…speaking gibberish (an unknown language!)

This is the state of the human Spirit in the human body…
Now sin, sin leads to corruption of the body, corruption leads to decay of the body, and decay leads to death of the body… The Spirit cannot die so at death of the body, the Spirit returns to God… The Power, animator, intelligence, returns to God.

Mikeboll says he can hide from God because there are places where God is and where God is Not…
Well, the light is on in my room, but if I shut my eyes it is dark… Have I hidden from the light? No, the light is still all around me (… Yeah yeah… No earthly analogy is going to fully mirror the heavenly reality !! Just go with it!!!)
I can CHOOSE to close my eyes but it doesn't mean that the light is not there…
Same then of God and his Spirit. If we CHOOSE not to accept Him, then it is our loss – it does not mean He is not there – as soon as we decide to metaphorically open our SPIRITUAL EYES HE is there…he was never AWAY from us…

So, how about the SPIRITS OF HEAVEN.

As mentioned, Spirits are FORCES, INTELLIGENT FORCES. a Force is not a body – it is ENERGY – and Energy is EVERYWHERE.. EVERYWHERE…

EVERYTHING that is done, everything that occurs , is done by a Force, a SPIRIT.

Scriptures say, 'The world was created by the word of God'.
This means his FORCE, His power, his Energy…The world is the WORK of his hands…
What is WORK: Work is ACTIVE ENERGY (POWER) ACTING OVER TIME.

God Almighty is the SOURCE OF ALL ENERGY… the description of God being in unapproachable light is a good point as light is a VISIBLE EMINATION of power and energy.

So unapproachable gives the feeling that there is an unassailable amount of energy available.
And so it is – endless – because, unlike the physical world, emery is not 'Lost' – as the great scientists have discovered – Energy only changes from ONE FORM TO ANOTHER – energy is TRANSFORMABLE.

E=mc^2.

Everything in the physical world is made of ENERGY – Compressed Energy – where did so much energy come from – from an UNDEPLETABLE SOURCE.

God further created 'Helpers' to do work – the Spirits, some as Angels… Intelligent FORCES OF ENERGY.
In this INVISIBLE world of UNLIMITED ENERGY where Intelligent forces of energy exist – the SPIRIT world- there are no BODIES as in the physical world.

The Spirit world is not physical – there are no 'here' 'there' or 'anywhere'.
In the physical world things are BOUND to one place in BODY MASSES. fixed masses and moving masses. Fluid masses and solid masses. solid masses and gaseous masses: all such masses are called BODIES IF THEY act as one accord – Human bodies, Planetary bodies, liquid bodies (in a container – ocean… Lake, Pond, pool … But not RUNNING WATER…similarly AIR Is not called a BODY in general unless it is gathered together – WIND, Tornado, Storm…these are bodies of air.
Material matter is God's creation to form the physical universe. To create a Spirit being is EASY for God IS A SPIRIT himself.
To create a physically thing takes HUGE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY ( I wish I didnt have to keep writing th
is…!) where can such huge amounts of energy come from? And who controls it all – it certainly was no accident nor the beauty of it all just indiscriminately evolved. This is ORDER at it's finest…

Terraricca, HEAVEN is not ABOVE US. Heaven is not BELOW US… neither to the left nor to the right… Heaven is ALL AROUND US and in us.

God is all around us.

We don't go UP INTO HEAVEN. this is just figurative speech.
If you could just open your mind to DIMENSIONS you would see that there is no UP DOWN IN OUT LEFT RIGHT or whatever … That going from one 'Place' to 'another' place IS ONLY RELEVANT in the physical world…

Imagine endless source of BANDWIDTH on your Internet connection…
Where could you not be on earth or in the whole universe and yet … Never leave your chair…
I wrote this as Douglas Adams did in HHGttG where the man went on holiday to another planet, to a beach on another planet while still IN HIS OFFICE …
God will allow us to VISIT OTHER WORLD IN OUR SPIRIT while our bodies remain on earth.

Jesus went to heaven but his body was on earth – if he comes to earth he will be in a physical body.
When he is in Heaven he will be in Spirit Only…

There will be a multitude of people who occupy Paradise Earth.
And Jesus will be there with them along with the ELECT.
Jesus and the elect will also dwell in heaven in their spirit…
How? Because now their bodies are IMMORTAL. they can leave their bodies and it does not die… This is the SPIRITUAL BODY, the IMMORTAL BODY, not subject to corruption nor death…

See here… The SPIRITS OF HEAVEN ARE NOT SUBJECT TO DEATH DECAY CORRUPTION, etc. Why not make the RESTING SPIRITS OF THE ELECT directly into LIVEABLE SPIRITS IF THERE ABODE IS ONLY FOR HEAVEN – why all the messy stuff with resurrection ( as Mike says, just to toss it off?)
But of the mortal flesh and blood bodies were to remain then yes – they are resurrected and made Immortal.
The text is singular : the body dies .. Is buried .. Is raised again in a glorified state – it was previously MORTAL – it is now IMMORTAL. it was previously subject to corruption – it no longer is…. It was previous in a state of Sin leading to corruption leading to decay leading to death – it nolonger is… Where is SPIRIT mentioned at all…

Ok, much more to say from the little I have said…

July 13, 2011 at 3:14 am#252193

Participant

Mike,

Do Angels have a Body? NO.
Does God have a Body? NO.

Angels can change into something like a Body when coming into our Earth.

Does Jesus have a Body in Heaven now? Well, according to Scripture from what I understand of it, Yes – Jesus does. Not like ours though.

THIS IS WHAT I'V BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

July 13, 2011 at 3:23 am#252194

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,20:52)

Irene, a ransom and the denial of the bodily resurrection of Christ is nothing but the text of the JWs. And you say you didn't learn it from them?

Shimmer,

I agree with you that Jesus was raised in the same body he died in. But what do the JWs have to do with it?

I hate it when people use this flawed tactic. It's like they're saying, “Well, if the JWs believe it, it must be wrong”. Where did that come from?

The JWs believe exactly as you do on probably 90% of scriptures. So what does it mean when you say “nothing but the text of the JWs”? Is that supposed to mean it must be wrong?

I don't get it. I don't agree with Irene's understanding on this subject, but it has nothing to do with what the JWs say. Nor would I suppose that a very knowledgeable pupil of the scriptures like Irene would base her understanding on anything EXCEPT how she herself interprets the scriptures.

peace,
mike

July 13, 2011 at 3:24 am#252195

Participant

But you see then again Istari could be right.

Good post Istari.

This is where I'm not sure.

July 13, 2011 at 3:24 am#252196

Participant

Just see Mikeboll's bravery – you know when a strong man walks away from a bully.. What happens: the bully thinks he's 'WON' and starts throwing verbals at the strong back of the man…

Yeah, yeah, Mike… Tears are rolling down your inner cheeks even now.

You say you learnt from Terraricca – what? How to fling empty nonsense – yes Mikeboll. But don't stop there – name all the others you learnt from:
WORSHIPPINGJESUS
KANGAROO JACK
SIMPLYFORGIVEN
STUART
DAVIDBFUN
JUSTASKIN
KARMARIE
SHIMMER
IS 1:18
DAVID
T8
!!

Yes, Mike, you learnt your ways and many ideas from EVERY ONE OF US because your nature is as a Copycat…

July 13, 2011 at 3:27 am#252197

Participant

Mike, ransom sacrifice, raised as a spirit only is all straight from the JWs. I was reading back on this thread. David quoted exactly what Irene is saying straight out of their literature.

July 13, 2011 at 3:30 am#252198

Participant

Mike, I still can't understand WHY you would think I would agree with someone JUST to be nice? Have you ever looked back on any of my debates? I have to laugh at that. Haha.

July 13, 2011 at 3:31 am#252199

Participant

Istari, you should be in bed.

July 13, 2011 at 3:43 am#252201

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,21:30)

Mike, I still can't understand WHY you would think I would agree with someone JUST to be nice?

Well, let's take a look at ONLY your last two posts, and then you'll see what I mean:

Quote

Does Jesus have a Body in Heaven now? Well, according to Scripture from what I understand of it, Yes – Jesus does.

And the very next post:

Quote

But you see then again Istari could be right.

Good post Istari.

This is where I'm not sure.

Now do you see it? YOU say you believe that Jesus DOES have a body. Yet you “Good Post” Istari when he's arguing that spirits, including Jesus, DON'T have bodies.

You have just applauded a post that you don't even agree with.

July 13, 2011 at 3:45 am#252203

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,21:14)

Mike,

Do Angels have a Body? NO.

Then why do you lump Gene in with you and Istari? Gene believes that angels DO have bodies.

July 13, 2011 at 3:46 am#252204

Participant

Oh dear oh dear… Another Mikebollism…

'Lean not on thine own understanding'…

Irene is clearly wrong on resurrection… Shimmer made this one point concerning JWs as a pointed remark. And I have said the same.

It is not that we say that Irene is a JW – just that point. It is also said about the Sadducees who do not believe in the resurrection – but no one is calling Irene a Sadducee (if only in jibe at least!)

And further more – The thread topic is 'Do Spirits have bodies?' and seeing that there has not been a single shrek of evidence presented stating that SPIRITS HAVE BODIES – the case for the prosecution is FOUND TO BE FALSE…

No evidence has been presented stating that 'Spirits have bodies'(In heaven).

The attempt at some form of evidence is based on an extremely silly misinterpretation of a the term 'Spiritual Body' which even a minor level school child could advise the learned gentlemen is nothing to do with SPIRIT BODIES… in fact this is an elementary prosecution error.

In fact, it would help their case somewhat if they actually used their misappropriated term of SPIRIT BODY instead as it would at least give a clearer indication of their error – to themselves.
Instead they continue to use the term SPIRITUAL BODY – meaning SPIRIT BODY with no change this making themselves a laughing stick when they read this through again on page 777.

M'lud it seems that RIGHTEOUS MINDS are confused with Riotous Minds…
Riotous minds against common sense and Scriptural Truth.

The foundations of sinfulness do indeed go deep – some here amongs these learned colleagues are trying to shake the very foundation of their misapprehensions below the levels known for sinfulness.

Scriptures does indeed say to leave such ones to their fate lest one sins attempting to stop them sinning… Ever the truth, eh!!

July 13, 2011 at 3:49 am#252205

Participant

Maybe Shimmer is showing Mike what it's like when others agree with you – out of turn… Except that I take no credit for what Shimmer believes.

If she posts well – I say so – if not I say nothing!

July 13, 2011 at 3:55 am#252206

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2011,15:43)

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,21:30)

Mike, I still can't understand WHY you would think I would agree with someone JUST to be nice?

Well, let's take a look at ONLY your last two posts, and then you'll see what I mean:

Quote

Does Jesus have a Body in Heaven now? Well, according to Scripture from what I understand of it, Yes – Jesus does.

And the very next post:

Quote

But you see then again Istari could be right.

Good post Istari.

This is where I'm not sure.

Now do you see it? YOU say you believe that Jesus DOES have a body. Yet you “Good Post” Istari when he's arguing that spirits, including Jesus, DON'T have bodies.

You have just applauded a post that you don't even agree with.

Mike, this is the only point I'm undecided on.

How do you know Istari isn't right? One day it will come to me.

July 13, 2011 at 3:56 am#252207

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 12 2011,21:27)

Mike, ransom sacrifice, raised as a spirit only is all straight from the JWs.

Do you suppose the JWs have cornered the market on this belief? Are they the ONLY ones on the earth who believe it? And if someone happens to believe it, does it mean they either ARE JWs or have learned it FROM JWs?

See? You can say, “Hey, that's ALSO what the JWs believe”. But IMO, it is wrong for you to PRESUME that Irene has based her understanding on a teaching from the JWs just because they have both ended up coming to the same understanding. And it is also wrong IMO for one to say, “You got that from the JWs”, as if that is a BAD thing. The JWs come closer to my own understanding of the scriptures than any other organization.

So when someone intends to belittle my view by pointing out that I'm in agreement with the JWs, I'll take that as a sign that I'm on the right track 99% of the time.

July 13, 2011 at 3:57 am#252208

Participant

Mike, you take a point – ONE POINT, where I'm undecided. Never mind all the other thing's that I have stuck with from page one.

So, what was your point?

July 13, 2011 at 4:00 am#252209

terraricca

Participant

istari

you do not frustrate me because i know you and i can predict you comments and action it is not even funny anymore ,so to me if you do not answer it is because you understand very well were i am going and this will corner you,again,

your big page i have seen it before it must be one of your favored text to trow at people to confuse them , i am sure with people like you ,any stupid thing works,

so i figure you lost once more,

Pierre

July 13, 2011 at 4:01 am#252210

Participant

Mike, I agree, the JWs do have a lot of truth. I was talking to two the other day. It was right after seeing the videos on the 'Kandilini Spirit' which is invading the Churches today. (t8s thread on the Toronto Blessing). BUT with this, the raising of Jesus as a Spirit being only, THAT is something the Earliest Church fought – Gnostic. I don't know. I never said Irene is a JW. I know she is not. But, I think sometimes people read something and base their understanding on that without looking further. Example JWs don't believe in healing. Well, that is NOT what Jesus taught, is it?

July 13, 2011 at 4:06 am#252211