Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

No deal Mike,

I am not here to bandy words with you.

Whatever you want to say – say it here and now.

Over the year(s) you have shown that your pointless 'One point at a time' – is a waste of time because there is only one thing you want to hear – that which you want to hear.

No deal – in fact, I don't know why I'm even responding to you on that.

You say I don't answer Scriptural points because they aren't what you want to hear.

You know for a long time that you are beaten but you just can't give in…
You can't answer simple questions but want to do Q&A – no chance friend!

Speak here or give in as there is nothing to be hid…

Jesus showed his IMMORTAL BODY to the Disciples and said 'See, I AM NOT A SPIRIT…'

Figure that against you saying he WAS A SPIRIT. Or was it that he WAS NOT IN A GLORIFIED BODY UNTIL HE DISAPPEARED INTO THE CLOUD (Such tosh!!) Where does Scriptures say that: What it DOES SAY is that his BODY WAS TRANSFORMED TO THE SPIRITUAL BODY STATE ON BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD…. not 40 days later…

You call God and Jesus liars then?

July 9, 2011 at 9:47 pm#251663

terraricca

Participant

Istari

Quote

We are not talking about a COLLECTION OF MELECULES, we are talking A Body meaning that it is a CONTAINER FOR ANOTHER THING

you are not truthful and you do not want to see that you are ignorant in your judgement of mine quote,

is a molecule not in a body that contain it ?
is not a atom in a container so that it makes a body?

and viruses are they not in a body ? look in the microscope

I do believe that i explain it very well ,but you and your ego can not see the truth.

Pierre

July 9, 2011 at 10:05 pm#251670

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 10 2011,07:28)

Quote (Istari @ July 09 2011,12:39)

In this thread it was clear from the beginning that the emphasis was on SPIRITS IN HEAVEN – Angels…

Yet, because there was NO EVIDENCE AVAILABLE, Mikeboll brought the ONLY VERSE HE COULD FIND that APPEARED TO SUPPORT ANYTHING OF HIS THOUGHT…………

Did you mean to say, “No evidence ASIDE FROM the MANY scriptures that clearly tell us exactly what the angel's bodies look like”?

Consider these words from your staunchest supporter – they are from the very first post Shimmer made on this thread:

Quote

Jesus has a body (And as I said I believe Jesus also has wings)

Just look at what your imagination has done to her in the last year or so. Tsk, tsk.

Mikeboll,
Are you suggesting that bringing one who is in error back to the truth is somehow wrong – shame on you, Mikeboll.

Is that why, after leading Irene and Terraricca into the wilderness, you were too ashamed to admit you led them astray – and so left them there… While you scuttled away realising you were wrong.

What does Galatians 6:1 say…?

And what of that other one: 'He who brings an errant one back to truth covers a multitude of sins'

But in any case, I take nothing on myself for Shimmer believing what she believes. It is the power of God that led her to believe through the it's will in me by writing what I write (“I write what I like”: Steve Biko)

I write what I like : I write what is truth.

Mike, what have I said from the beginning – and what have I said now?

Has anything I said changed over 355 pages? Why not?

Mike, because TRUTH IS TRUTH – truth cannot change!

Now check Irene, check Terraricca, Check yourself, Check Gene… Who HAS CHANGED…

Kerwin praised you for 'CHANGING… seeking the truth …' he does know you like I do… Does he?

If you WERE seeking the Truth then it's taking you a long time to find what is right in front of your face (Yes, Mike, In the Scriptures)!

Do you know that you are TELLING LIES AGAINST JESUS?

How does that make you feel – don't think about me – it is Jesus you are lying against – it is he who was RAISED FROM THE DEAD INTO A BODY OF TRANSFORMED GLORY – a SPIRITUAL BODY. Yet you say 'SPIRIT BODY' … You bring the Glory of God down to that of a Messenging Spirit.
Man, you got some apologising to do – to God Almighty – may he rebuke you – and forgive you!!

Mike, just don't do what Irene is doing and lying about the HOLY SPIRIT – don't take it from me though…

July 9, 2011 at 10:55 pm#251687

Blocked

Poor Istari,

No one is paying attention to him. So he rants and rants and rants. He completely ignores the fact that the six scholars he pointed us to agree with me. He says they don't, but can't seem to show how he came to that obviously false conclusion. Even his staunchest supporter offered her two cents that “even scholars can be wrong”, because she KNOWS that they all agreed with ME!

And now the clown who is known for loving the sound of his own voice so much that he absolutely must post 1000 words per post is crying that I don't answer HIS questions. Oh, boo hoo!

You can all see the deal I offered him, right? I'm not trying to avoid any point at all. I don't have to, because like every doctrine I have, scripture is how I gained my understanding, and scripture is what I'll happily use to defend it.

The problem with JA is that he is much like Gene. They both just keep posting the same old tired words over and over while completely ignoring the questions and points we make to them. For example:

Gene, does John 1:14 say the Word BECAME flesh, or CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS flesh?

Mike, (YOU) preexisters and Trinitarians are (ALL) the same, blah, blah, blah…………….

Gene, does Jesus say he had glory with God in the past?

Mike, you (PRE-EXISTERS) and Trinitarians (ARE) all the (SAME), blah, blah, blah…………….

Gene, what does Jesus mean when he says “I came down from heaven”?

(MIKE), you preexisters (AND) Trinitarians are all (THE) same, blah, blah, blah……………

Istari does this same thing. And while I would feel privileged to continue the scriptural education I've been giving him, I will only do it IF and WHEN he agrees to address the points I'm schooling him on. I have backed his imaginary doctrine on spirit bodies so far into a corner so many times in this thread, just for him to totally divert all eyes away from that corner by yelling “FIRE!” and pointing somewhere else.

If he agrees to answering my points as they are brought up, I will continue to teach him. Until that time, discussing anything with him is like discussing some fact we all know with a little kid who just keeps saying, “IS NOT!” “IS NOT!” “IS NOT!”

Well Court Jester? What will it be? Will you agree to rules that hold you accountable for the trash you spout? Or will you continue to recognize how badly I will thrash you and so keep making accusation posts that everyone here knows are coverup for your fear?

July 9, 2011 at 11:35 pm#251690

Participant

Mike, there is only one thing I have flip flopped over.

I still believe, as I have all the way through, that God the Father does NOT have a body but is spirit and spirit does NOT have a body.
I still believe, as I have all the way through, that Jesus was risen in the flesh not a spirit. He wasn't a “Ghost” and proved this.

The only confusion I have faced is – what is Jesus NOW.

What did I believe a year ago in regard to this?
Hmm… I believe Jesus could come and go from Heaven and Earth and could reveal himself anyway he chose. In Dreams and Visions mainly. And in spirit as you pray.

But I never used to analyze it. I think that is the problem here. I just BELIEVED.

July 10, 2011 at 12:01 am#251693

Blocked

If you say so, Shimmer. The fact is that even JA used to say Jesus was the only being in heaven WITH a body because he was the first of a “new creation”. Yet he also denies ever changing his view on this thread.

I used to think Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being. I don't anymore because YOU showed me scriptures that contradict that belief.

All I'm asking for is the same from you and Istari. You've already admitted that you don't think Paul was anxious to receive a body he would immediately shed. So what gives? Paul was very excited and looking forward to having his lowly flesh body transformed into a body adapted for living in HEAVEN. He said Jesus would transform his body so it will be like the body Jesus now has.

Istari oddly thinks Paul refers to the body Jesus now has……………HANGING IN A CLOSET SOMEWHERE.

Face it Shimmer, there is no way Paul was hoping to get a body like the one Jesus has hanging in a closet somewhere – just so that he could immediately hang his own new, glorious body in closet too.

If for only a second or two you would let your God given common sense override your apparent need to make JA feel good about himself, you too will agree that the body Paul referred to Jesus having is the spiritual body Jesus TRULY HAS right now in heaven.

peace,
mike

July 10, 2011 at 12:25 am#251695

Participant

Mike,

Fair enough, but ok,

Do you believe Jesus is also HERE? Because I do. I believe Jesus is in Heaven and on Earth. I have seen Jesus in vision in the heavens, and I have felt Jesus here beside me as I prayed. Jesus is appearing to Muslims by the millions in Dreams and Visions and they are seeing Jesus. How can you explain this?

July 10, 2011 at 12:30 am#251697

Participant

Shimmer,

It's ok – just let Mike rant on… You notice he says he isnt avoiding my question BUT THAT IS EXACTLY what he IS doing.

He wants a one to one Q&A as way of avoiding what is to come and so he can control what is said.

No, I will not be joining him in a Q&A (Questionable and Acrimonious) discussion.

Whatever he has to say can be said here – I wrote it before but he refuses to acknowledge it.

Besides he will only cry off in his usual way – leopard never changes his spots…

He doesnt answer questions but DEMANDS that others answer him.

I posted valid Scriptural points to him but he ignores them because he CANNOT ANSWER.
He is just filling in the yawning void in his knowledge by splattering nonsense as if it meant anything.

Anyone of credible ability would respond with information – not Mikeboll. He has none – so he flips off as if he thinks doing so will make me change my mind:

Notice he starts off comparing me with Gene – but only posts things from Gene.

I have not contended with Gene because I have said before that the thread topic is NOT ABOUT HUMAN SPIRIT… what can people here not understand?

Yet Mike still draws in Gene to this argument and equates him with me.

What have I AGREED with Gene: Nothing except that THE SPIRIT OF MAN IS, indeed, IN THE BODY OF MAN – that it is the Intellect, the Will, the enabler, the Enlivener, the animator of the body of Man.

What does Scriptures say, I gave it earlier: 'And God created MAN and blew the breathe of life into his nostril – and the MAN became a LIVING SOUL'

What was it that God blew into the man's nostril – was it not his SPIRIT?
What was the body before it was a LIVING SOUL? was it not STILL A MAN? As dead but still a man – a Body without a Spirit – a Dead Man.

Where does it say in Ezekiel about God making Bones come alive (Chp 24 I think) The bones were covered with flesh And the flesh covered with Skin – and God said 'Does this body live?' and Ezekiel said 'No' and God said, 'What must be done to make this body live?' and God blew the spirit into the body and it became alive.

What was that Spirit – an embodied 'Spiritual Man' as Mikeboll put it?

No, a unembodied WIND – Breathe – SPIRIT…

Does one 'blow a Body'? But a Spirit is blown into the body to make it live!
Does one 'Pour a Body'? But the Holy Spirit is poured out onto the righteous!
Does one 'Give a gift from the Body'? But the Holy Spirit gives gift of itself!
Why one but not the other? Because the body is a collection that works as one unit…whereas the Spirit is an ENEMCUMBERED free fluid-like immaterial force (Wind, Water)

Shimmer, Mike is feeling the effects of lying to God – he is getting really sore because he cannot answer the questions and his credibility is lost.

It is only to be expected that he should behave this way – is it not said of Satan: Woe unto the earth for the ruler of this system of things has been thrown down and he only has a short time to live…
Yes, when you know your time is short and you are up against the wall one of disreputable deeds will act in exactly the way mike does now… Poor chap: he, even now, sees the hangman's tying his noose ready for him so he rages hoping to bring others down with him: see, Shimmer, he hated the fact that you were brought out if the darkness into the light. He BLAMED ISTARI for making you see sense… He HATED the fact that you did not join him in his lies and so he is running after you to wash you away in his flood of disreputable rantings…. But you were swept up into a place of safety – and the great dragon went off to make war with the rest of the Saints in the forum…

July 10, 2011 at 12:54 am#251699

Participant

It is certainly true that I said that Jesus was the only one in heaven with a body – a new creation – the new man.

But this was not meant the way it came out because at the time there was no need.

The point I was making was that 'Of the SPIRIT CREATURES' Jesus, In Heaven, is the Only one who Has a Permanent body… All the angels create TEMPORARY BODIES when they come into the Physical realm…

I thought this was well understood at the time but it soon became clear that it was not so. Hence the refinement.

To say that I 'changed' is not strictly true – explained more clearly, is more like it.
Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven – I spoke of DIMENSIONS : For goodness sake, Why can you guys not understand that in FIVE DIMENSIONS THERE CAN BE NO PHYSICAL ENTITY – this is SIMPLE PHYSICS – it's not AN ISTARI CREATION… it's simply physics…

In the fifth dimension the ENTITY is in all places at one time…hence it CANNOT BE A BODY…
But when it comes Down into the physical dimension it CAN ONLY BE IN ONE PLACE AT A TIME – this is totally and wholly and directly PHYSICS… nothing more or less…

So to enter a locked room the entity goes into the fifth dimension so it is EVERYWHERE then comes down AT ONE PLACE in the room… Simple… And it all takes NO TIME AT ALL (Ok, one moment of time, or two!) The BODY is DEMATERIALISED and MATERIALISED BY THE ENTITY…
creating a body is no big deal to a Spirit especially when it is only a temporary NON-descript one.
Jesus however has a PERMANENT IDENTIFIABLE BODY – the New Crestion, the new MAN.

See that Mikeboll is struggling to understand high school physics so he poo poos it like a playground bully who is also dunce – if he doesn't understand it then the boy that does is gonna get beat up!!

July 10, 2011 at 1:36 am#251702

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ July 09 2011,18:25)

Mike,

Fair enough, but ok,

Hi Shimmer,

I believe “with us” is a relative term. Many times throughout scripture, God is said by the Israelites to be “with us”. It does not mean the Being of God was physically WITH the Israelites during that particular battle or whatever.

For example, when God sent His angel to wipe out 185,000 Assyrians in one night, God showed the Israelites that He was “with them” – not by being physically there, but by sending an agent to help them.

I could say the same to you, Shimmer. You're in the U.K. and I'm in America. But if you were going through some tough times or something, I could support and help you, thereby being able to say, “Don't worry Shimmer, I'll be with you until this thing is resolved.”

It is in this way that Jesus can be “with us” and God can be “with us” while they are actually dwelling in heaven.

Visions don't require the one in the vision to physically BE here on earth with the recipient of the vision either.

peace,
mike

July 10, 2011 at 1:56 am#251703

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ July 09 2011,18:30)

Shimmer, Mike is feeling the effects of lying to God – he is getting really sore because he cannot answer the questions and his credibility is lost.

Yet every time I turn around, someone else is agreeing with ME about this topic!

We had the six scholars YOU linked us to. Then there was Bod in the other thread. Then the poll I made showed clearly that you stand alone with your view that Jesus has a body he keeps in a closet somewhere. Oh, then there was the Pyles quote that Irene posted. And Ed climbed on board with the “Three Kings” and agreed that spirits DO have a limiting boundary that separates them from each other. And your avid supporter Gene also agrees that angels have bodies. Hmmmm…………..what else? That's all I can think of right now.

Even Shimmer agrees that Paul wouldn't logically be anxious to receive a body he would just store in a closet somewhere. I can tell that she KNOWS Paul is talking about having his lowly body transformed into one like the body Jesus now has in heaven – since that is where Paul said his citizenship would be. She knows this, but doesn't want to upset you because you're her friend, and she knows how much this means to you and how much it would devastate you if she openly posted that you were wrong.

You did find some “support”, (if that's what you could call it), from Charles. But have you read any of his posts at length, Istari? How does it make you feel to stand alone with Charles on this topic?

Yet you say that it is ME who is “lying to God” and “misleading others”? How could I have possibly “mislead” the six scholars that YOU linked us to?

July 10, 2011 at 2:13 am#251704

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ July 09 2011,18:54)

It is certainly true that I said that Jesus was the only one in heaven with a body……….

STOP THE PRESSES! WE HAVE A BREAKING STORY! ISTARI HAS SPOKEN TRUTH FOR ONCE!

Quote (Istari @ July 09 2011,18:54)

For goodness sake, Why can you guys not understand that in FIVE DIMENSIONS THERE CAN BE NO PHYSICAL ENTITY – this is SIMPLE PHYSICS – it's not AN ISTARI CREATION… it's simply physics…

And where exactly in the SCRIPTURES does GOD teach us about these “dimensions” and “physics”? Or perhaps you learned what you THINK you know from the flawed minds of human beings? Aren't these the same creatures who once thought the earth was flat and the moon was made of cheese? Yet you will take their “expertise” on a subject they could only possibly GUESS AT, over the words scripture?

Scripture says angels have wings. Scientists say that angels, being spirit, must be “everywhere all the time”.

Scripture says that angels come to and leave from different places. Scientists say that angels, being spirit, must be “everywhere all the time”.

Scripture says that those who will live in heaven will have spiritual bodies like the ones who already live in heaven have.

Scientists say that spirit beings must be “everywhere all the time”.

Hmmmm……………..what to believe? The words of those who created the “flat earth theory”? Or the words that were inspired by Him who created the earth (AND THE SCIENTISTS) in the first place?

Istari, you only THINK that you know certain things because you believe the words of men who can only hope to guess at things like this in the first place. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

July 10, 2011 at 3:59 am#251718

terraricca

Participant

Mike

istari ,JA,and another name i forgot , 350 pages stick on words and does not answer if you prove him wrong ,he just trows insults or do not respond to any of the quote who would kill his arguments ,

Yeah to say the truth he beat me I have bad feet now and they can not think any more on what astari says,

Pierre

July 10, 2011 at 9:10 am#251728

http://www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm

Participant

Mike, I don't believe that one can be wrong for believing in Science and Scripture. If it's what helps them as an individual to believe, then what harm is there in that? I think that, where the problem is, is when it becomes a competition of who is right and who is wrong. I may 'sit on the fence' and listen to Istari, and listen to you. But I enjoy 'sitting on the fence and listening to Istari'.

Saint Augustine on Science and Scripture

From here:

Saint Augustine (A.D. 354-430) in his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim) provided excellent advice for all Christians who are faced with the task of interpreting Scripture in the light of scientific knowledge. This translation is by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

July 10, 2011 at 10:47 am#251731

Participant

Terraricca,
I have no idea what you just said…

July 10, 2011 at 10:50 am#251732

Participant

Mikeboll quotes a partial quote and makes a claim with it… The guy is having a laugh…
Anyone can do that to make anyone seem to say anything.

Where is EDJ? Didn't he get a Tile for doing something like this?

July 10, 2011 at 11:04 am#251733

Participant

And Mikeboll,

You made a claim that you were going to present evidence on the body of Angels – have you run away seeing that now you know that that was all nonsense – you just posturing…!

Yes…

Another 'U-Turn' – just like the inate action of a SNAKE.

The SPIRIT of Jesus is in All who believe in Him…

Mike, please explain how this works from your 'Jesus has a body in Heaven' perspective.

Mike, even if JESUS has a BODY in Heaven, The SPIRIT OF JESUS is IN THAT BODY…
But the SPIRIT of Jesus IS NOT THAT BODY… The SPIRIT is IN THE BODY….!
So, Mike, DOES the SPIRIT ITSELF, that is IN the BODY, HAVE A BODY OF ITSELF?
Or is the BODY used to ENCASE (Embody, Contain, Restrain, Retain) the SPIRIT?

Please can you just answer these questions and not just pass accusational comments?

See, Mike, this is, as I said, all coming to an end. Yes, the end of this thread is in sight and that is why you are so scared to answer any of my questions.

Mike, don't be scared – the prize is the same – the truth is not mine alone but for all.

July 10, 2011 at 11:08 am#251734

Participant

Shimmer,
Excellent post again…

Why does Mike hate you?

July 10, 2011 at 11:53 am#251736

Pastry

Participant

Istari, Istari! All you do is accuse Mike over and over again, yet you give no Scripture to prove why you think God doesn't give it a Body like HE pleases…..Not man…..
And I don't think Mike hates Shimmer…..

July 10, 2011 at 11:58 am#251737