Do spirits have bodies?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ June 19 2011,12:34)

Mike Quote Kerwin, Mike KNOWS HE IS WRONG… we all know that, Istari his wrong ,don't we Pierre

Yes we do, Pierre. But he is a hard-headed one.

[Istari]

Mike,
Is it not easier just to POST THE QUESTIONS AGAIN rather than carry on with your farcical nonsense.

I will refuse to answer you until you do post them again…

[Istari]

Does this guy Terraricca ever posts anything that has any substance to it?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,00:35)

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,12:28) And what has 'Spirits in arid places' got to do with having a body? See Kerwin?  I have to take it slow with Istari, or he gets confused. Istari, I will explain (AGAIN!) about the “arid places” for you AFTER you address the other three points.  I have given you the page and post number, so you have no excuse. Answer ALL THREE of those points, and THEN I will educate you about the arid places again.  (I already put the point in the post, but as usual, I see I will have to walk you through it with baby steps.)

Why you are at it you might want to explain what you men by “body” as I believe you two are using two different definitions.

Here are the definitions at Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary.

Perhaps each of you can let your hearers know which definition you are using.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,12:44)

Mike, Is it not easier just to POST THE QUESTIONS AGAIN rather than carry on with your farcical nonsense. I will refuse to answer you until you do post them again…

Here's the whole post for you, child.  Next time, address the points AS they're posted so I don't have to use my time babying you like this, okay?

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,03:19)

Mike, you are saying (Are you saying) that “Flesh and Bone” is not a BODY? Are you saying Jesus DID NOT SAY (Mean) “See, I am not a Spirit, for a Spirit does not have a BODY like you see I have“? Mike, are you sane?

It's funny that I asked a simple question about cars, then Pierre even emphasized that question by bumping it for you……………and you STILL avoided it.  

Listen up, Sunshine:  If you would start addressing, one by one, the points we are making to you, you would then learn truth as opposed to spouting nonsense.

Here, lets try it with your quote from above.  You said, “for a Spirit does not have a BODY like you see I have”?  That's right Istari.  Jesus was saying that the BODY of a spirit is NOT comprised of flesh and bone, as you see I now have.  Therefore since MY body IS made of flesh and bone, and the bodies of spirits are NOT made of flesh and bone, I'm not a spirit.

Now consider this:  Why didn't Jesus say, “Duh!  Spirits don't even HAVE bodies, so the fact you're actually seeing me IN a body should tell you that I'm not a spirit!”?

But he didn't say that, did he?  He didn't imply that he wasn't a spirit because he HAD a BODY at the time, but because that body was MADE of flesh and bone.

Also notice that he didn't say, “Spirits don't USUALLY have flesh and bone.  They ONLY have flesh and bone when they create or manifest an earth body.”

See, he didn't say that because it would not have proven he was not a spirit.  There was apparently not an Istari in the crowd saying, “Uh, spirits can CREATE flesh bodies when they come to earth, Jesus.  That's how the spirits mated with human women to produce the Nephilim, Jesus.  In fact, some spirits just keep their “earth body” hanging in an “earth closet”, ready for them to put on when they visit earth.  So just because you have flesh and bone doesn't really tell us you're NOT a spirit, because spirits can CREATE flesh and bone bodies!”  

But that didn't happen, did it, Istari?  Because YOU were not there to tell Jesus what's what about dimensions and time travel and the space/time continuum, etc.  

So what have we learned?  

1.  The fact Jesus HAD a body was NOT the distinguishing factor that proved he was not a spirit.  The distinguishing factor was that his body was made of flesh and bone.

2.  If spirits can just “create” flesh and bone bodies at will, then Jesus' whole point that he wasn't a spirit BECAUSE he had flesh and bone would have gone right out the window.

There.  I've explained two of your many misunderstandings to you in one little post.  Not bad for a Sunday morning, huh?  

Now, if you would be so kind as to actually ADDRESS both of these points above, one by one, the learning process will begin for you.

Also, my previous question still stands to you:

Istari, if Jesus had said he was not a CAR because CARS don't have flesh and bone, would you assume:
a. Cars don't have bodies at all?
b. The bodies of cars are not comprised of flesh and bone?

As you can see, there is the premise and explanation, followed by what we've learned FROM that premise and explanation.  So either you AGREE with point #1 and point #2, or you must show me why they are scripturally inaccurate.

The bolded part is a simple question – I assume you know what to do with that part, right?  

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,00:32)

Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2011,12:22) An evil spirit has an evil disposition. There, you have summed it up with your OWN words, Kerwin. An evil “WHAT?” has an evil disposition? The spirit is the actual spirit being who talked back to Jesus saying, “What have we to do with you, Son of Man?”  The spirit is the actual being that Jesus ordered out of those people.   Face it Kerwin, you can strain the gnat and play around with pronouns all day long, but in the end, there is nothing you can say.  Many times in scripture, the word “spirit” refers to an actual spirit BEING. And if demons ARE “spirits”, then angels ARE also “spirits”, and Jesus actually became a life-giving “spirit”, just like Paul said.

Mike,

I did not say that the spirit was not a being just like I did not state the girl that was called a spirit was not a being.

It is plausible that the demon spoke to Jesus through the unholy spirit the man was carried along by Just like God spoke to his people through the Holy Spirit that the prophets were carried along with.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2011,12:47)

Why you are at it you might want to explain what you men by “body” as I believe you two are using two different definitions.

Istari has known MY definition of “body” since the beginning of this thread.  And Pierre and I have posted that definition over and over throughout this thread.  

A body is any membrane or boundary that keeps two or more beings separated from each other.  It is also any boundary that allows a thing to be “HERE” at the same time that thing is not “THERE”.

So if angels did not have some kind of “outer perimeter”, then there would be nothing separating one angel from another, and they would all just blend into one being.

Similarly, if angels did not have some kind of “body” that distinguishes where they ARE from where they are NOT, then they would truly be “everywhere all the time”, and could not be said to COME TO or GO FROM anywhere at any time.

Since scripture teaches of more than one individual angel, there is something that separates one from the other.  And since scripture teaches of angels coming and going, they cannot possibly be “everywhere all the time”.

My definition does not require a body to be visible, have a recognizable form, or even be what most humans consider “material”. 

As far as your attempts to mediate between Istari and I, it is commendable, but as you will soon see, a complete waste of your time.  Be forewarned: his wrath will soon become focused on you if you continue.

At first I was flabbergasted by the way Istari posted to others.  I complained to no avail.  And I didn't see you or Kar or Gene or Ed making one single comment about his verbal abuse to me or Pierre or Irene or Dennison or Kathi or anyone else.

And I finally figured that, just like a missionary who goes to South Central L.A., I would have to walk the walk and talk the talk to get through to him.  No missionary is going to gain any credibility or converts with gang members in America by speaking the proper and upper class King's English, right?

So I have brought myself down to his level, thinking that maybe if I spoke his language, he'd understand.  And then what happened?  People like Ed, who have said NOTHING about Istari's language, come out of the woodwork to call ME out for MY language!  

I take it as a compliment that they are not use to ME speaking this way, while they are by now numb and oblivious to Istari doing it.

Either way, I have for now decided to speak to him on his own level, in an effort to get through to him. So let the ad hominems fly, baby!

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2011,12:56)

It is plausible that the demon spoke to Jesus through the unholy spirit the man was carried along by

No, it's not plausible, Kerwin.

If it was, then Jesus would have thrown out both the demon, AND the unclean spirit.  The demon WAS the unclean spirit, Kerwin.

Here's the rest of that Luke scripture I quoted:

26 Then it goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there.

[mikeboll64]

Here's a better one, Kerwin:

Matthew 8:16
When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.

The “demons” they were possessed by WERE the “spirits” Jesus drove out of them.

[mikeboll64]

Who wants to bet that Istari STILL won't answer the points I've reposted for him?

My bet is that his next post will be more of the same, uneducated fluff and insults that he is known for – and won't have one single thing in it that actually addresses my points.

Any takers?

[Istari]

Mike,

Although for several pages now I have requested a response to you claim that Jesus' body was transformed just before he entered heaven you could not, nay , DARE NOT, respond.
But you were bailed out by Kerwin's inadvertent interjection even thought it is not actually an answer.

You say that Jesus' body was TRANSFORMED 'Into the SPIRITUAL BODY' spoken of by Paul.

That is the point: because it is evident that Flesh and Bone did not enter heaven.

So, Mike, you TRAP YOURSELF AGAIN even as you think you had escaped!!

The so-called 'Transformation' you say, is the 'Putting off of the flesh' that I spoke of many many times over.
Yes, Jesus 'Put off the Spiritual Body of flesh and bone' before entering heaven so he became a Spirit in the Spirit realm…

But you appear to PATENTLY REFUSE to acknowledge what is written in plain Scriptures:
'It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY'

You, Mikeboll, try to claim otherwise – counter to PLAIN SCRIPTURES…

You, Mikeboll, claim that the SPIRITUAL BODY was acquired just before Jesus entered heaven…
Mike, this is a monumental LIE on Scriptures – it is an APPAULLING TWIST – it is a DISGUSTING WAY TO sin, Mikeboll.

Anyway, your SIN will have been noted by God who raised Jesus from the dead into a Spiritual Body – and Jesus SHOWED THAT BODY to his eleven disciples and over 400 others.

Read Lukes version… The disciples did not believe at first… But the 400 did – Thomas was the LAST to believe…

They saw him – they touched him – he Proved that he was Flesh and Bone – and NOT A SPIRIT.
Your 'Pathetic' tortured quip that Jesus meant that a Spirit doesnt have 'the same type of body' as he had is beyond belief. May God forgive you!
Since no one has ever touched a Spirit, it is extraordinary that jesus should ask Thomas to put his hand IN THE HOLES. Why not just touch him… No, Jesus wanted to PROVE that he was RISEN – and did…
Mike, why do you want set yourself to destroy your soul by this disreputable and irresponsible cause when you KNOW you are way wrong.

Every post you make – every time you post – you know you are posting in untruthfulness.

[Istari]

Yes, Mikeboll, I do refuse to answer your questions for there is nothing to answer.

Your questions are not questions at all but just twisted nonsense.

I have told you before that it is a foolish man who attempts to answer a foolish question.

And so what next? Where is your tile?

[terraricca]

Quote (Istari @ June 20 2011,12:46)

Does this guy Terraricca ever posts anything that has any substance to it?

istari

look at your posts;

[Istari]

Mike,
You seem to have grown strangely bold in you posts of late.

You know, a dying man will try anything to cling to life – and this is how you are?

You imagined that you had found another 'Clincher' in 'Spirits in arid places' only to realise that it meant nothing in regard to 'Spirits with bodies' so you run off pretending that you are keeping it for later… Aaahhh – didumms – did you wet your pampers when you realised you had nowhere to go with it?

Mike, what does 'Raised a Spiritual Body' mean and where does it say that Jesus' body was Transformed just before Jesus entered heaven (Let me help you: 40 days before he entered heaven Jesus' body was RAISED IN A TRANSFORMED STATE! Help at all?)

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,13:37)

Who wants to bet that Istari STILL won't answer the points I've reposted for him? My bet is that his next post will be more of the same, uneducated fluff and insults that he is known for – and won't have one single thing in it that actually addresses my points. Any takers?

Mike

i am sure he will not;

[Istari]

Mike,
You asked me for how Jesus 'put off the body' and yet for hundreds of posts I have expounded Dimensions to you and yet you cannot put a simple two and two together.

Kerwin, maybe you have not been reading the posts but I posted definitions of 'Spirit' and 'Body' to Mike.

Mike has ignored the posts to give his own interpretation because he feats to use his netNotes and other more reputable sources because they would show him up. Just as Irene refused to define 'Celestial Bodies' and claimed they were proof that Scriptires spoke of 'Spirit Bodies'.
When asked about 'Terrestrial Bodies' she said they were 'Sun, Moon and Stars'
And worse, when asked about 'SPIRITUAL BODIES' SHE gave a distracted definition of a non-existent term 'Spirit Body'.

Guess who started this nonsensical idea : Yep, Mikeboll…
Them he realised he was SO WRONG he ran away for ages … Only to return spouting a slightly mote robust idea – and was FORCED to say sorry to SHIMMER…
Since then, Mike has been REFINING his ideas by systematically arguing AGAINST EVERYTHING said to him while at the same time incorporating them in his ideas till you see what you see today.

Kerwin, that is why you see SIMILARITIES with what Mike says and what Istari says…

Mike is drawing closer to what Istari says – because Istari has not changed what he has been saying from the beginning…

What Mike is struggling with is the concept that Spirits are not EMBODIED ENTITIES but INTELLECTS, Intelligence, not BODIES like humans, but THOUGHT, like the Mind…
As Gene says: The Spirit (In humans) is what occupies the body, animates it, enlivens it.
Take the SPIRIT out of the human body and that body is dead.. It cannot sustain itself and it decays back to dust.
But the Spirit goes back to God – it cannot function – it is dormant.
So the Angel Spirit is not the same as the Human Spirit for the Angel Spirit is directed by God.
Why did Jesus give up his Spirit to God when he died – his Spirit was dormant for the three days and nights while he was Dead…
Jesus had a HUMAN Spirit from when he became human being.
And, for this reason he also became a new creation, the Spiritual Man, higher than the Angels…with a Body that was not subject to sin nor subject to decay when the Spirit left the body…

[Istari]

And who will bet that desparate Mike will again refuse to respond to anything Istari asks him.

Why? Because he CANNOT – mike just spews vomit over anything said to him to cover the fact that he has no response.

This is what he learnt from his unsavoury acrid intercourses with WJ and KJ and others.

Mike collects methodologies of postings and trades insults for insults (Learnt from SF) – this is very childish – and shows why he has never closed a thread nor indeed secured a 'Win' on ANY POINT in over 5,000 postings…

[kerwin]

Istari,

I have not been following your debate with Mike.

Since the discussion between you two has become about the correct definition of body as it applies to certain scriptures then shouldn't you explain why you are convinced that definition is used in those scripture and not the other one?

Quote

Guess who started this nonsensical idea : Yep, Mikeboll… Them he realised he was SO WRONG he ran away for ages … Only to return spouting a slightly mote robust idea – and was FORCED to say sorry to SHIMMER… Since then, Mike has been REFINING his ideas by systematically arguing AGAINST EVERYTHING said to him while at the same time incorporating them in his ideas till you see what you see today.

That sounds like the actions of a student seeking knowledge.  He has formed a paradigm which he modifies as he learns more.  If he finds something that is revolutionary then he will develop a new paradigm.   It is the Spirit of God that leads us to learn the true paradigm in the end.

[terraricca]

Quote (Istari @ June 20 2011,15:02)

And who will bet that desparate Mike will again refuse to respond to anything Istari asks him. Why? Because he CANNOT – mike just spews vomit over anything said to him to cover the fact that he has no response. This is what he learnt from his unsavoury acrid intercourses with WJ and KJ and others. Mike collects methodologies of postings and trades insults for insults (Learnt from SF) – this is very childish – and shows why he has never closed a thread nor indeed secured a 'Win' on ANY POINT in over 5,000 postings…

istari

you are a asking machine ,that s the reason why you never answer the question in front of you,

you are also a multi blamer all others but you,

it is all about you not about the truth of God ,

all things that are created have a body of a sort if not they do not exist.do you get this ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,13:55)

Mike, Although for several pages now I have requested a response to you claim that Jesus' body was transformed just before he entered heaven you could not, nay , DARE NOT, respond.

And for several pages, I've been answering your point while you run away like a scared little girl from my points.  So not only are you a scared little girl, but also very adept at lying continually.  

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,13:55)

But you were bailed out by Kerwin's inadvertent interjection

Bailed out?  Oh, you mean you are surprised that someone else understands the meaning of the scriptures like me?  Go look at the poll again, sport.  You stand alone, Istari.  Apparently it's not just me who is an “idiot”, huh?

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,13:55)

The so-called 'Transformation' you say, is the 'Putting off of the flesh' that I spoke of many many times over.

And why is YOUR version right and mine wrong?  Is it ONLY because “the great Istari” doesn't WANT spirits to have bodies?  Is THAT what makes your version right?    Again, see the poll, clown.  And see the light for crying out loud!  YOUR version means Paul was anxious about getting a body he would immediately “shed”.  How in any sane world does that make sense to you?    You are off your rocker, dude.

Do you think that Paul knew about Jesus' “closet body” and was hoping to have one of his own to keep in a closet?  Get real!

Now I know you're scared and mentally slow, but I will attempt to address this next issue: (I have been avoiding it because you can't even keep up with the simple things like the above, so how will you follow the next thing?)

Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,13:55)

But you appear to PATENTLY REFUSE to acknowledge what is written in plain Scriptures: 'It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY'

Okay, follow along CLOSELY here.  Read my words ever so slowly, so your tiny brain can keep up with me:

Paul is speaking to those he considers to eventually be raised to a life in HEAVEN.  Paul is not speaking of Jesus, who is a separate case.  Jesus was not immediately raised from the dead in a spiritual body, for he still had work to do on earth, and therefore was FIRST raised in the body of flesh and bone.

You claim that Jesus was raised from the dead in a “spiritual, flesh and bone” body, right?  So, are you saying that Jesus was NOT a “spiritual man” during his whole three and a half year ministry on earth?  Was Jesus unable to “put on the spiritual man”, as Paul says, until he died?  When Jesus said that God is spirit and we must worship in spirit, was Jesus himself uncapable of doing this until he was raised in his new “spiritual, flesh and bone” body?

And when Paul says to “put on the spiritual man”, is he telling his listeners to kill themselves so that they can then become spiritual?

Istari, Jesus always had a “spiritual body” in one sense of the word.  He did not have to die to recieve that “spiritual body”.  But you always forget the other meaning of the word “spiritual”, which is:  “SOMETHING BELONGING TO A SPIRIT”.

See if you can follow here:  Jesus had ONE KIND of “spiritual body” during his ministry on earth, for he worshipped and taught by the spirit, of the spirit, for the spirit, and about the spirit.  So in that sense, Jesus was already a “spiritual being” way before he died.  It is that kind of “spiritual being” Paul and the others refer to when they speak of things like “putting on the spiritual man”.  They are speaking of flesh and blood beings who are guided by and speak through the spirit nature of God.

Jesus was not “changed” into this kind of being when he was raised, for he already WAS this kind of being before he ever died.  Nor does anyone Paul was telling to “put on the spiritual man” have to die in order to become this kind of “spiritual being”.

You are confusing Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.  In that writing, Paul is talking about those like him, who will die in their lowly, natural bodies, only to be raised DIRECTLY to heaven in their new, transformed, glorious, spiritual bodies.  (Note: This is a DIFFERENT kind of “spiritual body” than the one I've just explained)  

Paul is NOT considering Jesus in his 1 Cor 15 teaching, for only Jesus needed to be raised first as flesh, in order to finish his work before moving on to heaven.  No one Paul is speaking to or about has to go through this 40 days of remaining flesh.  The ones Paul is speaking about are ones who will die in the flesh to be raised IMMEDIATELY to heaven in their new spiritual bodies.

Can you follow this?  Do you realize that many have already been raised from the dead following Jesus?  Where has anyone seen one of them come to life in a flesh body like Jesus did, only to “shed” that flesh body upon ascending to heaven?

Jesus HAD to be raised FIRST in his flesh body to accomplish his teaching that there truly IS a resurrection of the dead.  No one else has to have that happen to them.  All others can be raised from the dead IMMEDIATELY in their spiritual bodies.  So Paul is not speaking of Jesus, the exception to the rule, in 1 Cor 15…………but about ALL OTHERS who will die on earth only to live in heaven.  They will die in their corruptable, lowly, natural body, only to be immediately raised to heaven in their incorruptable, spirtual body.

What you assert means that no one, not Jesus, his Apostles, disciples, you or me, could ever be a “spirtual man” and worship God in spirit and truth UNTIL we die and are raised in our “spiritual/flesh bodies”.  What you assert means that those who ARE chosen for a life in heaven will, for some odd reason, be raised in a “spiritual/flesh body” just to immediately “shed” this body in order to live in heaven.  What's the point?  For Jesus, there was a reason he was first raised in the flesh.  But how about for Paul?  Why would God raise him in a new “spiritual/flesh” body just for him to immediately “shed” this body on the way to heaven?

Istari, blink once if you understand, twice if you don't.  I hesitated to delve this deeply into the subject matter with you, because you don't seem to have the spirited understanding about this that most of the rest of us have.  Read wha
t I've posted SLOWLY, so your brain can keep up, okay?  

After all, it's time you stop posting what you know to be lies, just to avoid being “wrong”.  We all know you are anyway!  

[Author]

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