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Mikeboll has caught the joker bug – he is doing what he learnt from WJ – heaping riducule on truth – bad boy – Mike, What does Scriptures say about sins against the Spirit of Truth?
Mike, the bodies the Angels created were not TRUE BODIES… why you stressing the scene, man!
Moreover, Spirits do not desire to be in the Flesh because they would be constrained – what can you not understand about this.
They create bodies that only last as long as they are in the world… Have you not read the descriptions in Scriptures (Sure you have – but of course they don't help you!)Why are their gowns pure White and why is there a Shimmer about them?
Because their bodies (and covering) are SPIRITUAL – pure and righteous as sent by God. Have you noticed that there is not one single description of a DEMON SPIRIT in bodily form?Mike, you have reached the pit bottom so you turn to ridicule… There is madness in your post.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2011,22:50) Hi Kerwin, Luke was written in Greek, not Hebrew. And the word Luke and Jesus both used was “pneuma”, which means “spirit”. (Luke 24:37, 39)
Mike,You need to read the other accounts in scripture as of at least one definition of “pneuma” is a synonym of “phantasma'.
The only two places phantasm is used in Scripture are Matthew 14:26 and Mark 6:49 which are the two alternatives accounts of the event described in Luke. “Owb” is the Hebrew word that can mean the same thing.
So according to Mark and Mathew the disciples were afraid the were seeing either an appearance or an apparition, spectre.
I used the two definitions given for Strong's Number: 5326.
I discounted because of their reaction. “Owb” fits the second.
Like I said, jester, just address the points.
I've numbered two of them for easy reference, and bolded the third so you'd be sure to see it.
Now…………..will you actually address the very words I wrote, (as Kerwin is doing about angels being ministering spirits), or will you show everyone here that you CAN'T address those points by continuing to make this thread into a slam-fest?
A discussion between normal, intelligent people includes the addressing of each other's points, Istari. A conversation between a moron and an intelligent person involves points being made on one side, and insults being flung on the other.
Which definition fits OUR discussion, Istari?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,04:42) Like I said, jester, just address the points. I've numbered two of them for easy reference, and bolded the third so you'd be sure to see it.
Now…………..will you actually address the very words I wrote, (as Kerwin is doing about angels being ministering spirits), or will you show everyone here that you CAN'T address those points by continuing to make this thread into a slam-fest?
A discussion between normal, intelligent people includes the addressing of each other's points, Istari. A conversation between a moron and an intelligent person involves points being made on one side, and insults being flung on the other.
Which definition fits OUR discussion, Istari?
Hi Mike,Does the word 'moron' count as an insult?
Kerwin
Quote Are angels disposed to minister? some for sure examples;Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
Rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
Rev 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 2:1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
Ge 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
and many other scriptures
Pierre
Istari,
Quote Mikeboll has caught the joker bug – he is doing what he learnt from WJ – heaping riducule on truth – bad boy – Mike, What does Scriptures say about sins against the Spirit of Truth? That is a legitimate form of argument if he follows your argument to its absurd conclusions or points out why your conclusion is absurd.
I am convinced that both you and Mike believe sincerely that the teaching you hold to are from God. That does not make it so in either case.
So like Mike you should avoid ad hominem arguments which benefit none and instead address his points. If he chooses not to believe then the results are on his head.
Scripture states that Lucifer came disguised as an angel of light and so his spirits come disguised as the Spirit of God. That is why those seeking God are instructed to test the spirits.
Mike, you are getting sick and ill – please stop your nonsense before your infection gets worse!
God STOPPED the Angels from creating full flesh and blood bodies long ago in the days of Noah.
Why do you use that situation as an example when it is irrelevant? Are you so desparate?And 'See, I am not a Spirit' – ok, so it COULD BE ambiguous if you FORCE IT as you do…
What use is a body to a Spirit except to occupy one in the physical world?The body restricts the Spirit – retains it in one place in the physical world – whereas, in the Spirit realm, the Spirit is everywhere – only when it comes into the physical world and is constrained in a body is it in one place…
The bodies acquired by the Angels in the physical world are all NON-DESCRIPT , featureless…
But Jesus' body is a recognisable body… The first of a new Spiritual Body, the undying body…
Jesus 'Puts off this flesh body' when he goes up to Heaven and 'puts it on' when he comes down into the physical world – and so will those who come after him.By the way, there is no 'Up' or 'Down' to or from Heaven. This is just a human way of speaking.
Jesus went 'Up' only due to the belief of the people – heaven is neither up nor down but INTO OR OUT OFF the physical world.
This us exactly how DIMENSIONS work. One does not go 'Up' or 'Down' through Dimensions but 'INTO' or 'OUT OF' them but it would be hard for those of the time to understand what Jesus did – how he just DISAPPEARED from their sight but if he went UP then disappeared they would believe.Coming 'into' the physical dimension can be ANYWHERE, hence Jesus and other Spirits just APPEARED where they needed to be and then equally VANISHED back out of the physical dimension as they pleased:
'The Spirit is like the Wind; it blows where it will, and no one knows from whence it comes nor to where it Goes'In contrast, the body, being one unit that requires to be maintained as a unit, must move in contiguous motion from one place to the next.
Mikeboll, This is simple physics!
Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2011,11:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2011,22:50) Hi Kerwin, Luke was written in Greek, not Hebrew. And the word Luke and Jesus both used was “pneuma”, which means “spirit”. (Luke 24:37, 39)
Mike,You need to read the other accounts in scripture as of at least one definition of “pneuma” is a synonym of “phantasma'.
The only two places phantasm is used in Scripture are Matthew 14:26 and Mark 6:49 which are the two alternatives accounts of the event described in Luke. “Owb” is the Hebrew word that can mean the same thing.
So according to Mark and Mathew the disciples were afraid the were seeing either an appearance or an apparition, spectre.
I used the two definitions given for Strong's Number: 5326.
I discounted because of their reaction. “Owb” fits the second.
Kerwin,You seem to be straining the gnat. Take the many occasions where the demons who possessed people were called “unclean spirits” or “evil spirits”. Here's just one of the many:
Mark 9:25
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”Jesus rebuked the evil SPIRIT by calling IT a “deaf and mute SPIRIT”. Here's another:
Luke 11:24
“When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’Again, the spirit IS an “IT”, not something that is inside an “IT”.
Angels, (and also fallen angels) ARE spirits, because they are beings comprised of spirit.
peace,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ June 19 2011,23:47) Kerwin Quote Are angels disposed to minister? some for sure examples;Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
Rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
Rev 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 2:1 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:
Ge 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
and many other scriptures
Pierre
I agree.They also ministered in giving the Law of Moses to the children of Israel. Jesus ministered by giving the new covenant to the whole world.
astari
Quote Coming 'into' the physical dimension can be ANYWHERE, hence Jesus and other Spirits just APPEARED where they needed to be and then equally VANISHED back out of the physical dimension as they pleased:
'The Spirit is like the Wind; it blows where it will, and no one knows from whence it comes nor to where it Goes'In contrast, the body, being one unit that requires to be maintained as a unit, must move in contiguous motion from one place to the next.
Mikeboll, This is simple physics!
like you say ;this is simple physics WHAT IS CREATED AS A KIND OF BODY OR IT DOES NOT EXIST ;
Pierre
Kerwin,
I was going to bring up the “arid places” point to Istari a while ago, but he has a hard enough time when I take it slow with him. I don't want to overload his brain.
But since it has been brought up, consider that even on earth, these SPIRITS are invisible, yet they COME and GO, TO and FROM arid places and people's bodies. They cannot come and go if they don't have a body that distinguishes where they ARE from where they AREN'T.
So they DO have a body, even though it's not visible to the human eye. The same as all spirits everywhere, who have bodies that are only visible to the human eye when God allows it to be.
Kerwin,
Mike KNOWS HE IS WRONG…See, you reported my question to him but he only responded to your first post.
Wonder why?
Mike claims he BOLDED two questions to me: Where?
Yet he keeps posting saying that I am ignoring him.He avoids MY questions but posts more and more questions to me that bleats on that I don't answer him.
Mike, what questions are you on about – and when are you going to answer mine – see, I can post my question:
“Please show me where in Scriptures it says that Jesus' body was TRANSFORMED just before he entered heaven (as opposed to where his body, which did not see corruption in decay, was transformed in the SPIRITUAL BODY when he was RAISED FROM THE DEAD – as Scriptures says…)
Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,11:57) What use is a body to a Spirit except to occupy one in the physical world?
And this is your WHOLE argument, Istari. Because YOU don't personally see a reason for a spirit to have a body, you have decided that they don't. That is NOT how things are done for those who want to let the scriptures teach them.How are you different from Gene, who doesn't WANT Jesus to have pre-existed, and so has decided that he didn't – no matter what the actual scriptures say about the matter?
My questions await a DIRECT answer from you, jester. There is #1, #2, and the bolded one.
Will you get around to doing so anytime soon?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,00:00) Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2011,11:40) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 19 2011,22:50) Hi Kerwin, Luke was written in Greek, not Hebrew. And the word Luke and Jesus both used was “pneuma”, which means “spirit”. (Luke 24:37, 39)
Mike,You need to read the other accounts in scripture as of at least one definition of “pneuma” is a synonym of “phantasma'.
The only two places phantasm is used in Scripture are Matthew 14:26 and Mark 6:49 which are the two alternatives accounts of the event described in Luke. “Owb” is the Hebrew word that can mean the same thing.
So according to Mark and Mathew the disciples were afraid the were seeing either an appearance or an apparition, spectre.
I used the two definitions given for Strong's Number: 5326.
I discounted because of their reaction. “Owb” fits the second.
Kerwin,You seem to be straining the gnat. Take the many occasions where the demons who possessed people were called “unclean spirits” or “evil spirits”. Here's just one of the many:
Mark 9:25
When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”Jesus rebuked the evil SPIRIT by calling IT a “deaf and mute SPIRIT”. Here's another:
Luke 11:24
“When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’Again, the spirit IS an “IT”, not something that is inside an “IT”.
Angels, (and also fallen angels) ARE spirits, because they are beings comprised of spirit.
peace,
mike
A deaf and mute spirit is not deaf and mute but renders its victims deaf and mute.In a similar situation Satan inflicted Job with painful sores.
An evil spirit has an evil disposition.
Peter was called Satan when he was carried along by his sinful
desires. Was that evil spirit possessing him at that time or was he instead dwelling in Peter through the unclean spirit Peter was moved by at the time.I have heard pronouns are difficult to translate from common Greek to English so I am unable to address that point due to lack of information.
Here is site that addresses such confusion.
Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,12:12)
Kerwin,
Mike KNOWS HE IS WRONG…See, you reported my question to him but he only responded to your first post.
Wonder why?
What Kerwin did was support me by saying that although there isn't a specific scripture that says the body of Jesus was transformed, we can gleen that understanding from what IS said in the scriptures.You also don't have a specific scripture that says Jesus “SHED HIS BODY” upon entering heaven, do you? But unlike you, I DO have other scriptures to support the fact that bodies are TRANSFORMED and CHANGED, etc.
Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,12:12)
Mike claims he BOLDED two questions to me: Where?
Yet he keeps posting saying that I am ignoring him.
Page 305, 6th post from the top. The points are also emphasized to Gene on the same page, 8th post from the top.And until you actually address those EXACT points DIRECTLY, I will continue to TRUTHFULLY point out how you are ignoring them because you CAN'T address them and still keep your false ideas.
Mike, Once again you refuse to post your questions but just go On bleating that I haven't answered them?
How am I expected to answer questions that you refuse to post.
And when will you answer mine – even WHEN I repost it over and over – and even others post it to you?
Seem you are the one running away…
And what has 'Spirits in arid places' got to do with having a body?
See – snatching at straws again – just where do you get off, Mikeboll?Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2011,12:22) An evil spirit has an evil disposition.
There, you have summed it up with your OWN words, Kerwin.An evil “WHAT?” has an evil disposition?
The spirit is the actual spirit being who talked back to Jesus saying, “What have we to do with you, Son of Man?” The spirit is the actual being that Jesus ordered out of those people.
Face it Kerwin, you can strain the gnat and play around with pronouns all day long, but in the end, there is nothing you can say. Many times in scripture, the word “spirit” refers to an actual spirit BEING.
And if demons ARE “spirits”, then angels ARE also “spirits”, and Jesus actually became a life-giving “spirit”, just like Paul said.
Quote (Istari @ June 19 2011,12:28) And what has 'Spirits in arid places' got to do with having a body?
See Kerwin? I have to take it slow with Istari, or he gets confused.Istari, I will explain (AGAIN!) about the “arid places” for you AFTER you address the other three points. I have given you the page and post number, so you have no excuse.
Answer ALL THREE of those points, and THEN I will educate you about the arid places again. (I already put the point in the post, but as usual, I see I will have to walk you through it with baby steps.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2011,00:08) Kerwin, I was going to bring up the “arid places” point to Istari a while ago, but he has a hard enough time when I take it slow with him. I don't want to overload his brain.
But since it has been brought up, consider that even on earth, these SPIRITS are invisible, yet they COME and GO, TO and FROM arid places and people's bodies. They cannot come and go if they don't have a body that distinguishes where they ARE from where they AREN'T.
So they DO have a body, even though it's not visible to the human eye. The same as all spirits everywhere, who have bodies that are only visible to the human eye when God allows it to be.
I do not argue that the spirit side of man does not have a spirit body as Scripture seems to acknowledge is does. One example is as you pointed out the disciples thought Jesus was a phantasm.I will not argue that either spirits or angels are beings without a flesh side since the donkey saw an angel but his rider did not. In addition the donkey was able to avoid the angels presence.
Nothing you state in your post disagrees with me except for whether or not angels and by implications demons have a flesh side.
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