Do spirits have bodies?

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ June 15 2011,01:55)

What you imply is that Jesus was raised into a SPIRIT BODY.

No. Raised in flesh, and then had that body TRANSFORMED into his new, glorious spiritual body – the one that Paul referred to in Phil 3:21.

Quote (Istari @ June 15 2011,01:55)

the very word 'Spirit' means 'Immaterial and invisible, Bodiless'

How does the word “invisible” mean “bodiless”? Do you think that because we can't SEE something, that “something” doesn't exist?

And you of all people, being a “professional fractal engineer”, should realize that NOTHING is “immaterial”. The lines on a leaf are fractally diminished over and over and over until we can't detect the pattern anymore with our technology, but that doesn't mean a material leaf suddenly becomes “immaterial”, just because we have looked as deep as we can with the tools we currently have.

How long ago was it that the smartest scientists thought the air we breathe was “immaterial”? We've found out since that the air we breathe is made up of millions of tiny particles, all MATERIAL. You need to jump off the “World is Flat” bandwagon, Istari. There isn't a scientist in existence that can rightfully claim with any certainty that ANYTHING ANYWHERE is “immaterial”.

Quote (Istari @ June 15 2011,01:55)

No scholar in the history of this world has illuded to Spirits having bodies – neither does Scriptures!

I just posted the NETNotes scholars who said the word “likeness” in 1 Cor 15:49 refers not only to the heavenly BODY Jesus has, but also to his state of mind.

And although many scriptures actually DESCRIBE the bodies of spirits, all you need to know is that SCRIPTURALLY, Jesus IS a spirit now, and Jesus DOES have a BODY now. So as usual, you are wrong on both counts.

Istari, in Phil 3:21, Paul, KNOWING that his citizenship will be IN HEAVEN, is anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus HAS.

You have claimed (out of necessity to keep your doctrine) that Paul is anxious to receive a new EARTH body, that will hang in a closet somewhere next to Jesus' earth body, ready for whenever (if ever) they decide to visit earth.

Let's put this to a poll, okay? But before I set up the poll, I want to be clear about one thing, since you have claimed both sides of this alternately:

Istari, do you think that Jesus DOES have a body in heaven? Or do you believe that Jesus does NOT have a body in heaven?

mike

June 16, 2011 at 4:04 am#248743

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2011,07:23)

Quote (Rena @ June 15 2011,05:35)

What? Mike! Interesting that you would encourage this type of behaviour in a young one?

What's interesting is how you continue to praise and defend (thereby ENCOURAGING) Istari's bad behavior, but you are the first to come crying on his behalf if anyone says one single offensive thing BACK to him.

Try playing with an honest deck of cards, instead of the stacked one you've been using.

I understood her words differently. It sounded to me like she was urging you not to tempt your brother to sin.

June 16, 2011 at 12:27 pm#248771

Participant

Thank you for noticing that Kerwin. I was trying to point out to Mike – without getting involved in their 'dispute, that we shouldn't pull 'younger ones into anything. It's what the bible say's. It say's we need to respect our elders.

Mike, you want a straight 'yes or no answer?
Ok. No, it doesn't make sense to me that – in your word's – “the one who rules over heaven (and those who have been resurrected since him) are constrained by bodies while the angels they rule over are unconstrained and everywhere all the time”. – because I don't believe that.
Mike, read my post and the quotes I had again – on page . Then you'll see how I see thing's.

t8, your right. And people can change how they view thing's at any time, and it's good that God knows this and know's the intentions of our hearts.
True spirituality isn't what we believe in regards to things like this, though it does help.
It helps make a persons heart right, just as not sinning also does. Sin seperates us from God and from true love of other's.
But 'the truth will set us free as it say's too in the bible.

Thanks for your post Gene.
Sorry about the rushed responses here in all one post, it's late.

June 16, 2011 at 12:29 pm#248773

Participant

Mike, that was a page back – page 296 – that I was refering to.

June 16, 2011 at 7:20 pm#248785

Istari

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2011,12:10)

Quote (Rena @ June 15 2011,05:35)

So I think that sums up my answer?

No, not at all. The question only requires a YES or a NO answer, Kar. Would you do me the honor of DIRECTLY answering a DIRECT question that was put to you? Or will you play games like Istari does?

mike

Mike,
Which / What 'game' am I playing – 'Truth or Dare'?

You are the one playing games …

How do you define one word using a definition of another:
I said that 'Spirit' is Immaterial, Invisible, Bodiless.

You cannot take one part of the description/definition and compare it with another… This underlines your deceitful way of thinking… No, it wasn't an error on your part; it was deliberate…

The body is material, visible and constrained by an outer casing called skin…
How do you say 'Visible does not mean Skin' or 'Material does not mean Visible'…
How do you say 'Bodiless does not mean invisible'?

You take one quality and compare it to another quality of the same entity and say 'that is false' – of course it is FALSE (Or at least not necessary True) because YOU JUST MADE A FALSE COMPARISON!!

You do this all the time – it's called 'Muddying the waters!'
You make deliberate errors hoping the opposition doesn't notice :

Sorry Mike, I DO NOTICE!

Jesus does not have a BODY in Heaven because a Body cannot enter heaven.
A body is composed of material matter – ever BODY is composed of material matter.
Material matter is Compressed ENERGY. All material matter is created from ENERGY – everything is ENERGY ORIGINATED.

Power – is active energy – energy at Work. This is PHYSICS – and we live in a PHYSICAL world.

God, how is God described: 'Bathed in light'. Why? Because Light is the only visible part of the Spectrum of energy that we can see.

God is also 'Fire'? Why, because 'Fire' gives HEAT which is the only part of the energy Spectrum we can FEEL.

When an Atom is 'crushed' it gives off enormous amounts of energy: Heat and Light… Where does the Heat and Light go to…? Does it remain VISIBLE, Feelable? No, where does it go?
EVERYWHERE…
It is SPIRITED away… The Atom is SPIRITED away… The Atom which is a body… Is SPIRITED AWAY – everywhere…in the atmostphere (Don't go there! This is an Earthly analogy!)

Mike, you are thrashing!!

Jesus is the only Man with a Spiritual Body. The Spiritual Body is pure and Sinless, not subject to decay, it is not carnal, is righteous by desire and perfect in design. But it is still flesh.

What purpose did God create Adam in a Spiritual flesh body if God meant for him to cast it aside and live in Heaven.

No, Mike, God purposed that Man should live on the Earth – that's why he created the physical world. If God had meant for man to live in heaven as a Spirit them why go to all the trouble of creating the physical world?

No, Mike, God purposed that 'Some' would go to Heaven as rulers – he purposed that Adam was meant to be so – but Adam failed – God purposed that many (but a few) would also become Spirits and go to Heaven – put off their Earthly flesh bodies and become like the Angels – but BETTER THAN the Angels…
How? The Angels do not have RECOGNISEABLE HUMAN FLESH BODIES.
look for the descriptions of Angels – they are only ever said to be 'Like' a MAN (not Woman – why?), 'In the Form of a Man' and 'One LIKE the Son of Man (A human being)'
They wear SHIMMERING WHITE ROBES and emanate perceptible Power!
Why emanate power: They are INTELLIGENT ENERGIES at work: Intelligent Powers – but they restrain themselves when in contact with humans so as to not 'fry' them – they put on the FORM of Man so as to not frighten them. Also to make themselves more believable: what should someone say,'A Bush told me to kill my son?'; 'A lightening bolt caused me to sin'; 'The wind told me to preach the Gospel to the Ninevehn's'? Wouldn't he be laughed at?
But if one like another man said, 'Your wife will be pregnant in the course of time from today!', well, presume he is a doctor, fortune teller, clairvoyant, mystic…an Angel of God!

And where did he DISAPPEAR to in the twinkling of an eye – and did not your heart 'Burn' inside you as he spoke – and how were his clothes so WHITE and why did he have a Shimmering haze about him – almost like he was an APPARITION but more solid…!

Mike, you looking too deeply into what you don't understand

June 16, 2011 at 7:54 pm#248787

Participant

Istari

are incapable to answer my question ?

when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.

so what is your respond to this ?
because all your theory sits on nothing without seeing this as truth of God

so you still do not see it ,fighting for what ?

Pierre

June 16, 2011 at 8:21 pm#248789

Istari

Participant

Mikeboll64,
You have asked, nay, demanded an answer to 'Paul's citizenship in heaven' and I have answered you THREE TIMES… yet you keep asking and calling me evasive.

No more answers for you on that.

You keep fouling yourself over the Spirit and the body…
Is it not simple enough? A body is inanimate without a Spirit.
Why would the Spirit be a body if it indwells a body.
Why does that which is contained in a body itself a body…see, mike, Nonsense!

You twist what is said to you then deride your own twisted thoughts claiming they are from another.

Mike, you say Jesus was RAISED in the body he died in…
Then you say that body was TRANSFORMED!
Can you show me when and where that occurred?

I'm sure Paul say, 'It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY'!
mike, I don't see 'transformed later on' written there!

Mike, how do you misread 'Raised a Spiritual Body' as meaning 'Raised a Natural Body and later Transformed into a SPIRIT body'.

Mike, if you were truthful with yourself you wouldn't need to be some in error.

Mike, you can just STOP your nonsense… Stop being a Prince of Persia!

June 16, 2011 at 11:43 pm#248792

Blocked

Quote (Rena @ June 16 2011,06:27)

Mike, you want a straight 'yes or no answer?
Ok. No, it doesn't make sense to me that – in your word's – “the one who rules over heaven (and those who have been resurrected since him) are constrained by bodies while the angels they rule over are unconstrained and everywhere all the time”. – because I don't believe that

Thanks for the DIRECT answer to my question, Kar. I agree it makes no sense.

And the quotes of others you posted don't even all agree with each other, so how was I supposed to understand YOUR understanding from that mish-mash of differing thoughts?

Judging by what you've previously posted, you seem to think that Jesus, and those who have been subsequently raised to life in heaven, DO have bodies. Yet you DON'T believe that they would have constraining bodies, while the angels they rule are “everywhere all the time”.

So what gives? They either DO have bodies or they DON'T. And if they DO, then the angels MUST BE less constrained and more free than those who rule over them…………..unless they too have bodies.

You've been riding the fence rail for quite some time now, jumping back and forth on both sides of the fence. Pick the scriptural side of the fence and stick with it, Kar.

Jesus DOES have a body, for scripture says so. Paul hopes to have his lowly body transformed into one like Jesus now has, for scripture says so. There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies, for scripture says so. Adam, who was a man, had a natural body, LIKE THOSE WHO ARE OF EARTH – for scripture says so. Jesus, who is now a spirit, has a spiritual body, LIKE THOSE WHO ARE OF HEAVEN – for scripture says so.

peace,
mike

June 16, 2011 at 11:54 pm#248793

Blocked

Quote (Istari @ June 16 2011,13:20)

Jesus does not have a BODY in Heaven

Thank you. I will now create the poll.

June 17, 2011 at 1:45 am#248801

Participant

Istari,rena,SF,JA,Gene

can you deny my statement ;when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.

no answer from you guys will make me right in this assertion.

Pierre

June 17, 2011 at 3:08 am#248808

Blocked

Istari,

Are you ever going to answer Pierre's question?

June 17, 2011 at 4:06 am#248814

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,07:45)

Istari,rena,SF,JA,Gene

can you deny my statement ;when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.

no answer from you guys will make me right in this assertion.

Pierre

Does the universe (all creation) have a body.

June 17, 2011 at 4:09 am#248815

Participant

Terrarica, Mike,

There's so much we don't know.
I can't answer your question.
I do know – were supposed to worship the Father in spirit and in truth – and the truth sets us free.
I don't see God as anything but an invisible presence that is within and without, eveywhere all the time, and also “visible” in things that happen.
Example if a storm came, then I would be fearful if I had done wrong because I would percieve God could be “in” that – if you see what I mean.
If I do something wrong then I know God has seen it and knows even our thoughts.
If I do something right – I know God is happy – and I feel God's love when I'm obeying. And God wants us to be obediant to him.
I feel distant to God when I do wrong and don't listen.

So because God is everywhere and knows all thing's – to see God like a MAN in a body – it doesn't make sense to me.
(I know that's not what were on right now but just going back to the start)
Man was made in God's image – but that's spiritual image – with thought and feelings and things. That's how I see it.
The closest thing there seems to be to “God in the flesh” is Jesus –

“Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

He wasn't saying he was the Father – but that all he said was from the Father.

“The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works”.

“The Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”.

Thinking about it too much and the views of others though is making me tired…

June 17, 2011 at 4:54 am#248820

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 17 2011,22:06)

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,07:45)

Istari,rena,SF,JA,Gene

can you deny my statement ;when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.

no answer from you guys will make me right in this assertion.

Pierre

Does the universe (all creation) have a body.

Kerwin

if planets and solar system are created and form a unit and then we call it universe and you ask if the universe a composition of bodies is a body ? right ?

Pierre

June 17, 2011 at 5:01 am#248821

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,10:54)

Quote (kerwin @ June 17 2011,22:06)

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,07:45)

Istari,rena,SF,JA,Gene

can you deny my statement ;when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.

no answer from you guys will make me right in this assertion.

Pierre

Does the universe (all creation) have a body.

Kerwin

if planets and solar system are created and form a unit and then we call it universe and you ask if the universe a composition of bodies is a body ? right ?

Pierre

Pierre,

I asked if the universe itself had a body.

You stated everything and the universe is created.

If the universe does not have a body then there is ast least one created thing withoud a body.

June 17, 2011 at 5:03 am#248822

Participant

Quote (Rena @ June 17 2011,22:09)

Terrarica, Mike,

“Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

He wasn't saying he was the Father – but that all he said was from the Father.

“The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works”.

“The Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”.

Thinking about it too much and the views of others though is making me tired…

Rena

the reason you can not answer is because you believe God is IN side of everything that exist and so he cannot have a body or form because he would have all bodies and forms,
what is a non sense,

but God is not Christ in the flesh ,this is absolutely not scriptural,

now if God is invisible ,is he invisible to men only or to all beings in heaven far or close to him ?

Pierre

June 17, 2011 at 5:05 am#248823

Participant

To all,

Is there anyone that disagrees with the hypothosis that Jesus was resurrected in a flesh and bone body?

June 17, 2011 at 5:20 am#248826

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 17 2011,23:01)

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,10:54)

Quote (kerwin @ June 17 2011,22:06)

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,07:45)

Istari,rena,SF,JA,Gene

can you deny my statement ;when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.

no answer from you guys will make me right in this assertion.

Pierre

Does the universe (all creation) have a body.

Kerwin

if planets and solar system are created and form a unit and then we call it universe and you ask if the universe a composition of bodies is a body ? right ?

Pierre

Pierre,

I asked if the universe itself had a body.

You stated everything and the universe is created.

If the universe does not have a body then there is ast least one created thing withoud a body.

kerwin

Yes the universe as a body,

do you know why ?

Pierre

June 17, 2011 at 5:45 am#248828

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 17 2011,17:03)

but God is not Christ in the flesh ,this is absolutely not scriptural,

Terrarica, I never said that.

I said

The closest thing there seems to be to “God in the flesh” is Jesus –

“Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip?

He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?'

He wasn't saying he was the Father – but that all he said was from the Father.

“The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works”.

“The Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak”.

“The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works”.

Now do you understand me Terrarica? I wasn't saying what you said I did. I'm not a Trinitarian. I do not believe Jesus was God the father but the son.

Did no-one hear what Istari said?

Quote

Simple Angel Spirits come and go into the physical world.
Do they have bodies on Earth? Yes.
Do they have those bodies in Heaven? No.

What purpose are hands, legs, arms, eyes, head, nose, belly,…Earthly human attributes, required in the Spirit realm?

God says 'Lift that' and it is lifted.
God says 'Go there' and it is gone there.
God 'hears' by thought…
God 'Sees' by INSIGHT.
And God is a Spirit…
And Spirit moves at the speed of thought (Think there and it IS there)
God is Holy and does not THINK anything that he does not wish to do – for the thoughts of God are as an act… Sinful Humans have a buffer so they can think, withhold, reflect, and then Do Or Not Do!The SPIRITUAL MAN does not think Sinful thoughts but Holy thoughts.
The Spiritual Man does not LIE, nor have carnal desires of the flesh (or indeed of anything!)
The Spiritual Man is like the Angels but better – Sex is not a desire of the Spiritual man, Power is not a desire of the Spiritual man.
The Spiritual man seeks the ways of God only, to please the God of Heaven and sacrifice himself, dedicate himself in Worship of the God of Heaven, YHVH, the 'I Am'.

This is the Man with a SPIRITUAL BODY…

That should sum up the whole thread to what is a spiritual body!

June 17, 2011 at 5:48 am#248829