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To all,
Quote John 11 (New International Version (NIV)) 21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Is Martha speaking of the the resurrection of the flesh in the last day or some other kind of resurrection?
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2011,22:23) To all, Quote John 11 (New International Version (NIV)) 21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Is Martha speaking of the the resurrection of the flesh in the last day or some other kind of resurrection?
Kerwindoes it say in the flesh ?
or you just suppose so?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2011,10:44) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2011,22:23) To all, Quote John 11 (New International Version (NIV)) 21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Is Martha speaking of the the resurrection of the flesh in the last day or some other kind of resurrection?
Kerwindoes it say in the flesh ?
or you just suppose so?
Pierre
They were discussing Lazarus who had died and was resting in his grave at that time.What kind of resurrection did he undergo.
Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2011,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2011,10:44) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2011,22:23) To all, Quote John 11 (New International Version (NIV)) 21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Is Martha speaking of the the resurrection of the flesh in the last day or some other kind of resurrection?
Kerwindoes it say in the flesh ?
or you just suppose so?
Pierre
They were discussing Lazarus who had died and was resting in his grave at that time.What kind of resurrection did he undergo.
Kerwinwhen Jesus recall the soul of Lazarus into his body ,was that the last days?
as Martha saysPierre
Quote (Rena @ June 10 2011,17:48) I agree with you Mike.
But having something new means the old is gone.
But Paul says “transformed”, right? As in his body will be transformed into a glorious body adapted to living in heaven, where his citizenship would be.I don't understand the rest of your post, or how you SCRIPTURALLY came to the conclusion that before this, spirits did not have bodies.
Quote (t8 @ June 09 2011,13:20) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,07:32) mike if God start to create would this not mean that he start to do thing like adding separate things (all things) beside himself?
because why would he create something in himself ,his God not complete by himself??
Pierre
Because God is love and love is meant to be shared.
T8 and Pierre,I agree with you that God is pure love,and also pure inteligence.
I also humbly would like to clear something about God:
God in His unfathomable depth of perfections, in His affluence of treasures, in His impetuous infinity of riches, is set in motion by its own inclinations to communicate itself.
At the same time God is in Himself conscious that although in order to create He distributes gifts and graces, still not diminish his riches, but to increase them everlastingly.
I hope that I gave you a bigger dimension,of God. Thanks to the Holy Spirit gift to me!
Love and Peace in Jesus Christ
Charles
Charles
Quote I also humbly would like to clear something about God there was nothing to clear ,You have add what is true ,we where not discussing the qualities of God but do spirit have a body or a form.
it is well know the qualities of our creator ,scriptures are witnessing this.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 12 2011,05:14) Quote (Rena @ June 10 2011,17:48) I agree with you Mike.
But having something new means the old is gone.
But Paul says “transformed”, right? As in his body will be transformed into a glorious body adapted to living in heaven, where his citizenship would be.I don't understand the rest of your post, or how you SCRIPTURALLY came to the conclusion that before this, spirits did not have bodies.
Mike, the way I see it is, both of you are right in a way and both are wrong in a way. God and the spirit son's or angels could do as JA said, come into the earthly realm and 'put on an earthly body and put it off again when going back to heaven.However Jesus as a spirit son of God came into the world differently. He was born as we are. And he was killed and dead and risen from the dead as a new creation of God's. He was risen and ascended to heaven still in his new glorified body and will return in the new glorified body. Just as others will be able to do. So unlike the first created spirit beings (angels) who can transform from one realm into another – as spirit to form – Jesus will be able to go from there to here as will others still the same.
I believe Jesus changed when he went up through the clouds to heaven but not in the way you imagine – not as just spirit but as so glorified that when he returns he will be bright as the sun. And only those who are his Fathers will remain the others who aren't wont.
I think theres alot of people thinking they are saved but on the day of the Lord it will be too late, they won't even have time to think about it let alone know what happened. It will be quick and only some will be standing still.
What happens after that I don't know. It will be so beautifull and something we have never known. God won't let us know yet. If God did then we would want to go there so much, but that's not Gods plan for us to know at the moment. This is just a journey. Just like the child in the womb – that's all it knows doesn't it. It doesn't know theres a whole world out there! And why would we show it the world before it's due time? It needs to grow.
Catapillars grow wings and turn into butterlies. ….
Mike,
Every post you make and have been making in recent times are getting more and more weak.Save yourself now and give in. Remove your self imposed blinkers!
Only a foolish man tries to answers a foolish question!!
Define 'Body'… Define 'Spirit'
What is a BODY without a SPIRIT?
What is a SPIRIT without a BODY [To live in]?What is the SPIRIT REALM?
What is the SPIRITUAL REALM?
Are they the SAME THINGS?What is a SPIRIT BODY?
what is a SPIRITUAL BODY?
Are they the SAME things?Is God a SPIRIT?
Is Jesus a SPIRIT?
Are Angels SPIRITS?Jesus' NATURAL BODY was transformed into a SPIRITUAL BODY but still retained the nail holes from his crucifixion.
If others in heaven already have SPIRIT BODIES – how did they get them when Jesus is PRE-EMINENT?And if Jesus is the exact Son of God by BEGOTTENSHIP (Birth) as Mike and many others say – then Jesus must be greater than God himself because God does not have a BODY – yet Jesus is said to ' 'God' AND has something that 'God' does NOT have…. Really?
No, BEGOTTEN SON, means being BROUGHT UP, RAISED UP, ADOPTED… as Paul 'Adopted' Onesimus, becoming 'SPIRITUAL FATHER' to Onesimus, Having BEGOTTEN Onsemus even from within his prison cells while in chains…
God raised up Jesus from the dead to become preEminent over all who are raised from the dead to a PERMANENT and Incorruptible state (The Spirit is always permanent so how could it be THAT that was made IN CORRUPTIBLE?)
So we know that jesus' body was raised up incorruptible – if his body HAD seen corruption (full decay) and then God raised him up then God would have had to FAKE the holes in his hands and feet!!! So it was his real and actual flogged and beaten body that was raised back in freshness – cleansed as a Expert Embalmer would do but left the holes as PROOF!
Jesus' IMMATERIAL SPIRIT that went up to God was restored to the MATERIAL BODY to re-animate it and give identity a visual identity to the Spirit through the body.
No other SPIRIT BEING has a visually identifiable body – but this WILL be for the ELECT – Like Jesus, they too, will have SPIRITUAL BODIES that allow them to PUT IT OFF and PUT them back on like a Cloak – yes, Mike, 'Hang them in a SPIRITUAL CLOSET' while they are in Heaven.
The rest of MANKIND on PARADISE EARTH will not be able to do so. Their Spiritual bodies will remain EARTHBOUND in the PHYSICAL world.Onesimus was a slave and was in great sin and was figuratively 'Dead' on the streets of Rome having run away from his master.
Paul figuratively RAISED Onesimus from his dead state and gave him a SPIRITUAL LIFE.Was Onesimus a SPIRIT BEING? yet he was raised SPIRITUALLY… by Paul…
Quote (Istari @ June 13 2011,09:24) Onesimus was a slave and was in great sin and was figuratively 'Dead' on the streets of Rome having run away from his master.
Paul figuratively RAISED Onesimus from his dead state and gave him a SPIRITUAL LIFE.Was Onesimus a SPIRIT BEING? yet he was raised SPIRITUALLY… by Paul…
istaristill run away?
Quote (Istari @ June 10 2011,14:12)
Mike,
You are weakening.istari
you never answer my quote ,when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.
so what is your respond to this ?
Pierre
Quote (Rena @ June 11 2011,16:56)
God and the spirit son's or angels could do as JA said, come into the earthly realm and 'put on an earthly body and put it off again when going back to heaven.
Where are the scriptures that support this theory, Kar? For example, when Balaam's donkey could see the angel before Balaam could see him, did the angel already have a body? Did he “manufacture” one body that only the donkey could see, and then another one that the donkey AND Balaam could see? What are your thoughts about this situation?Quote (Rena @ June 11 2011,16:56)
He was risen and ascended to heaven still in his new glorified body and will return in the new glorified body.
Jesus was risen in a body made of flesh and blood, for he clearly said that's what his body was made of. Yet it is implied that flesh and blood can't be in heaven. So the only way Jesus can still have the SAME body he was raised in is if that body was TRANSFORMED into a body NOT of flesh and blood. I believe that's exactly what happened, and that it happened upon his ascension to heaven.Quote (Rena @ June 11 2011,16:56)
So unlike the first created spirit beings (angels) who can transform from one realm into another……….
This sounds reasonable to me. I believe that angels can TRANSFORM the bodies they always have so that they become visible to human beings as fire or ice or flesh or water or whatever.If not, then you are putting the one whom God placed as ruler over heaven and earth in the precarious position of being the only one in heaven who has a body. Why would the Lord of heaven and earth be encumbered by a bodily restraint when all of his subjects are free to be, as JA says, “everywhere all the time”?
peace,
mikeQuote (Istari @ June 12 2011,08:13) Jesus' NATURAL BODY was transformed into a SPIRITUAL BODY but still retained the nail holes from his crucifixion.
If others in heaven already have SPIRIT BODIES – how did they get them when Jesus is PRE-EMINENT?
Yay! Istari is speaking truth finally!You are 100% correct that Jesus' NATURAL BODY that had the holes he showed the disciples was TRANSFORMED into a SPIRITUAL BODY.
We don't know whether or not his new, glorious, spiritual body still has nail holes, for scripture doesn't say. I highly doubt it, for his new body is made of spirit.
But how would Jesus being “pre-eminent” have anything to do with whether or not the others have spirit bodies?
(Btw, Jesus is not pre-eminent. No scripture ever calls him that because his own God is pre-eminent over His own creation.)But it is good to see you actually make a sentence out of your own words that is scriptural.
Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,09:24) Onesimus was a slave and was in great sin and was figuratively 'Dead' on the streets of Rome having run away from his master.
Paul figuratively RAISED Onesimus from his dead state and gave him a SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Yay again, Istari! You have now shown your capability of knowing the difference between “figuratively dead” and literally dead; between “figuratively raised” and literally raised; between “figuratively begotten” and literally begotten.The trick now is for you to read the scriptures that tell of God SENDING His only begotten Son into the world in the first place. Start with John 1:14, which says John and the others beheld his glory as the only begotten from the Father. How could the Word have had on earth a glory of someone who, according to you, didn't even exist until after Jesus died?
Then go to John 3:16-18 and read how some people on earth had ALREADY been condemned for not believing in the only begotten Son who God gave because He loved the world so much.
Let me know if you still have problems after reading and figuring those two passages out, okay?
mike
Mike,
You are the one seeing truth and then doing what you always do – claim it as if it were your own – this has ALWAYS been your tactic!I have said nothing different from what I have been saying for over 288 pages on this topic.
All I do is try to get you to see – and now YOU FINALLY HAVE.
But yet – even as you SEE – you can't still believe. You seek PROOF from Scriptures. You Thomas!! Only when you see will you believe – yet many have not seen yet believe!
You weave a very complex web that is so tangled I dont think you know when you are coming from when you are going!
You just scramble whatever is presented to you each time and cannot hold a single argument point. There is no cohesiveness in your thought.
You said there were those in heaven BEFORE Jesus with bodies – now you say there are not.
Scriptures says Jesus is preEminent yet you say he is not because God is – no Mike, God has nothing to do with this – and you know it – this is WJ tactic … Mike, you are a bad boy! You KNOW you are lying… You said what you said because you were caught out with truth…Mikeboll64 – you are in fear of truth… Stop now ! Mikeboll64: Stop now!!
You say that Jesus was raised into a Spiritual body… You know that he showed that body to Thomas, the other 10 Disciples and to over 500 more… Jesus clearly stated that he was a flesh and bone body – not a Spirit…
Yet, you, Mikeboll, cannot digest that Scripture PROOF so scramble it into nonsense and readjust it for your own delusion.
You say that Jesus body was TRANSFORMED when he entered heaven… Now you never said THAT BEFORE, have you Mikeboll64… See : slowly slowly catchy fishy…Paul does not say that the transformations when the body enters heaven nor do any other Scriptures… So – bad luck Mike – that false logic has proved to be just so : false!
'It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED a Spiritual Body'
Bad luck, old boy, try another, and another, as many as you like – Mike, Truth cannot be bent and still remain truth!! Sooner or later, someone will notice that it is bent – that you are speaking bent truth formally known as 'a Lie'.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 13 2011,03:10) Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,09:24) Onesimus was a slave and was in great sin and was figuratively 'Dead' on the streets of Rome having run away from his master.
Paul figuratively RAISED Onesimus from his dead state and gave him a SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Yay again, Istari! You have now shown your capability of knowing the difference between “figuratively dead” and literally dead; between “figuratively raised” and literally raised; between “figuratively begotten” and literally begotten.The trick now is for you to read the scriptures that tell of God SENDING His only begotten Son into the world in the first place. Start with John 1:14, which says John and the others beheld his glory as the only begotten from the Father. How could the Word have had on earth a glory of someone who, according to you, didn't even exist until after Jesus died?
Then go to John 3:16-18 and read how some people on earth had ALREADY been condemned for not believing in the only begotten Son who God gave because He loved the world so much.
Let me know if you still have problems after reading and figuring those two passages out, okay?
mike
What?
Mike, what are you gobbling at here?What do you mean by 'you have finally come to understand' – Mikeboll – Who do you think I am?
– who do you think YOU are?Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2011,22:42) Quote (kerwin @ June 12 2011,02:22) Quote (terraricca @ June 11 2011,10:44) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2011,22:23) To all, Quote John 11 (New International Version (NIV)) 21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Is Martha speaking of the the resurrection of the flesh in the last day or some other kind of resurrection?
Kerwindoes it say in the flesh ?
or you just suppose so?
Pierre
They were discussing Lazarus who had died and was resting in his grave at that time.What kind of resurrection did he undergo.
Kerwinwhen Jesus recall the soul of Lazarus into his body ,was that the last days?
as Martha saysPierre
I was not implying it was the time of the resurrection at that time. I was pointing out that Martha belied Jesus was speaking of the time of the resurrection when he stated that Lazarus would rise again. In other words she aw no visible difference between the two resurrections.Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,16:49) What do you mean by 'you have finally come to understand' – Mikeboll – Who do you think I am?
Apparently someone who can't even comprehend the words I write, let alone the words written the the scriptures. For example:Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,16:49) You said there were those in heaven BEFORE Jesus with bodies – now you say there are not.
When did I say there are not?Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,16:49) Scriptures says Jesus is preEminent yet you say he is not because God is – no Mike, God has nothing to do with this – and you know it – this is WJ tactic … Mike, you are a bad boy! You KNOW you are lying… You said what you said because you were caught out with truth…
There is no scripture that says Jesus is “preeminent”, despite how the KJV translates Col 1:18. The Greek words actually say, “…….in order that he may become in all things, himself, first”.Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,16:49) You say that Jesus was raised into a Spiritual body…
Wrong again, Sherlock. I say that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body he died in – a FLESH AND BLOOD body. Then 40 days later, as he ascended to heaven, that FLESH AND BLOOD body was transformed into the new, glorious, spiritual body he now has. I say that this new, glorious, spiritual body that Jesus now has in heaven is the one to which Paul refers when daydreaming about having his own lowly, flesh and blood body transformed into one just like the one Jesus now has.Quote (Istari @ June 12 2011,16:49) You say that Jesus body was TRANSFORMED when he entered heaven… Now you never said THAT BEFORE, have you Mikeboll64
I sure have – many times in many posts.Quote Paul does not say that the transformations when the body enters heaven nor do any other Scriptures… So – bad luck Mike – that false logic has proved to be just so : false! 'It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED a Spiritual Body'
Paul almost EXCLUSIVELY writes to people as if they are all the elect. Just like in Phil 3:20, where he says “OUR citizenship is in heaven”, making it seem as if every single person who reads his letter is one of the elect.The same goes for 1 Cor 15, Istari. Paul is not distinguishing between those who are raised back to a life on earth and those who are raised to life in heaven. He is once again writing as if everyone who reads his letter is included in the elect. And it is with that mindset that he speaks of people sowing their earthly, flesh and blood bodies, and being raised in the new, incorruptable spiritual bodies that will be required for their life in heaven.
Don't bother even posting to me anymore. I don't have time to explain to you the very simple words I already posted, as if you were a remedial student or something.
You attribute to me things I never even said, and then call me a liar for saying them.
Put down the Jamaican rum and focus.
All,
The most important thing is to be spiritual. If your not connected with the spirit then you can't love people spiritually. You may 'think you do but – it's different. True spirituality is when you live in this world but aren't a 'part of it. You look for the heavenly kingdom to come. And I agree with you Mike when you say those who Jesus and Paul are addressing – are 'all believers – who hope for a heavenly kingdom, though it also say's there will be a new heavens and earth.
First is love and healing. I believe we all go to God when we die, and God's love heals us. After that then – I don't know. I believe there will be different places for different people, the bible say's that somewhere I think. – Yep… he who teaches men to break the law will be called 'least in the kingdom of heaven.
Mike, Jesus is not 'alone as the only spirit body in heaven. The first resurrection of the dead has taken place already. And I believe that those who die don't wait in the grave they're taken up straight away.
My opinion.
The point is- Before Jesus and those resurrected there wasn't exactly the same in heaven. Otherwise theres no difference. Jesus was the 'first begotten – and that's from the dead. I know there are other 'begettals but that's not the point.
I'm not speaking here from scriptural knowledge just what I believe, and I'm allowed to believe, we all are.
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