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Who has seen the giant flaw in Mikeboll's argument???
Look at 'Jesus was raised into the same body he died in'
And look at 'Jesus is in heaven in that body'
Now ask: What body did Jesus show Thomas – prove to Thomas?
Was it not 'A Flesh and Bone' body?
What did Jesus say to Thomas: 'See that I am NOT a SPIRIT'So, How does Mikeboll account for Jesus NOT BEING A SPIRIT – and – is in a Flesh and Bone Body – on Earth… YET – IS A SPIRIT – in Heaven?
At what point did Jesus change from being a Flesh and Bone material bodied person – into a Spirit being?
Mike, Any response to that question?
Don't get me wrong. I'm talking about unity of those who share a similar belief… not those who try to seduce people away into believing false doctrine..
2 Corinthians 2:11 “Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.”
1 Timothy 4:1-2 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to… seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.”
Quote (Istari @ June 06 2011,08:48) So, if Jesus was RAISED INTO A GLORIOUS BODY then so will PAUL…
if Jesus went up to Heaven – then so will Paul (of The Elect)
Will they have BODIES IN HEAVEN – No –
Istari,Do you know that Jesus was raised back to life in his flesh body for a specific reason? Do you know what that reason was?
Now, aside from Jesus, (who was raised from the dead only to spend 40 more days on earth for a specific purpose), who else is said to be raised FIRST in their earthly bodies, and THEN dump those bodies on their way up to heaven? And why would a body that the elect will only need for a couple of seconds before ascending to heaven need to be “glorious”? And why would Paul even be worried about this new transformed body when he knows his citizenship will be, NOT ON EARTH, but in heaven, and this body will be shed within seconds of him receiving it? (And that's only IF he's not one of the ones who don't sleep at all, but instead are changed in the twinkling of an eye. If he IS one of those, then you really have to wonder why he would need a “glorious new body” just to be “flashed” right from life on earth to life in heaven.)
Istari, I REALLY want you to think this next part out slowly and clearly, so you can see the truth of the matter, okay?
Let's say that YOU live a 2 minute taxi ride away from the docks. You are about to leave on a beautiful, exotic cruise ship, where you'll reside for the rest of your life. The following is YOU talking:
“My residence is going to be on this beautiful luxury liner for the rest of my life. Boy, I SURE hope they send me the nicest and cleanest taxi cab in their fleet for that 2 minute drive to the dock.”
Do you see the problem? Do you think, while contemplating the rest of your whole life on this “paradise” ship, that you'd spend even ONE SECOND of your life hoping the cab you'll be in for mere seconds is a nice one?
That's what you're claiming here. You are claiming that Paul, while contemplating life in paradise, where according to you he won't even need a body, is spending his thoughts concerned about some fancy new body that he'll never even NEED. WHY would he do that? WHY would he be concerned about how glorious his new body will be if he's only going to be in it for mere seconds, or maybe even not at all?
When you figure out the answer to that riddle, things will start to fall into place for you.
mike
Quote (Istari @ June 06 2011,08:56) So, How does Mikeboll account for Jesus NOT BEING A SPIRIT – and – is in a Flesh and Bone Body – on Earth… YET – IS A SPIRIT – in Heaven? At what point did Jesus change from being a Flesh and Bone material bodied person – into a Spirit being?
Mike, Any response to that question?
Yeah,We've discussed it at some length on this thread already, but here goes:
There is not a specific scripture that says Jesus' body was transformed. But Paul hopes that his will transformed into one like the one Jesus now has, right? So let's do the math:
Jesus was most definitely raised back to life in a flesh and blood body, right?
Jesus cannot possibly have a flesh and blood body in heaven, PLUS he is now a spirit, and spirits don't have flesh and blood, according to Jesus' own words, right?
Yet Jesus DOES have a body in heaven, for Paul hopes his will be just like it.
So although scripture doesn't spell it out for us, MY OPINION is that right after Jesus disappeared in the clouds during his ascension to heaven, that flesh and blood body was transformed into the new, glorious body he now has. And that is why Paul mentions his hope for his body to also be transformed into the kind of new glorious body that Jesus now has.
Btw, I sure hope my friend Irene is doing okay. Has anyone heard any updates about her?
mike
Mike… JA,
I'v had the abitility to discern thing's all of my life. I knew the root of the problem in this case – and it goes right back to the 'begotten and procreation' threads. Those topics were a 'set up' to distract you away from the more important truths – and to turn you against each other. And it's carried on in to here. I don't have the ability to write fancy speeches with fancy grammer. But I do have the ability to tell when something – someone – just doesn't feel right.
Apart from this and the anger that has come with it which has turned you away from each other… the truth is that you – JA, Mike, t8, Piere, Irene, George, and anyone I'v forgotten, you are not trinitarian, not binitarian etc… but what has happened? Your making friends with the teachers of false doctrine. All holding hands together because it FEELS good.
“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of MAN.”
Does it really matter'? YES IT DOES!
I see that now. FINALLY.You should be united – not fighting.
Quote you are not trinitarian, not binitarian etc… but what has happened? Your making friends with the teachers of false doctrine. All holding hands together because it FEELS good.
Hi Shimmer,I'm glad you've finally come to terms with the thing you've scolded me for before.
I did not come to Heaven Net to bring peace, but a sword. If someone is spouting unscriptural nonsense, then I'm coming for them with that sword, simple as that. I don't care who it is. But I get your point that JA and I should be fighting side by side as great warriors against the “Jesus is God Almighty” blasphemy instead of fighting against each other on an issue that surely won't decide whether or not anyone gets saved.
But remember that it has always been JA's choice whether to be respectful towards me or not. Pierre and I have also had our share of differences when it comes to Biblical interpretation, yet we still fight side by side on the other issues, admit our love for one another, and speak respectably towards each other.
The same goes for you, Irene, Kathi, Marty, Kerwin and many others here.
I will ALWAYS be just as nice to JA as he is to me. (99% of the time, much NICER.
)Thanks for your attempts at mediating. You do have a good heart, but the ball is in his court.
peace and love to you my friend,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2011,11:20) Quote you are not trinitarian, not binitarian etc… but what has happened? Your making friends with the teachers of false doctrine. All holding hands together because it FEELS good.
Hi Shimmer,I'm glad you've finally come to terms with the thing you've scolded me for before.
I did not come to Heaven Net to bring peace, but a sword. If someone is spouting unscriptural nonsense, then I'm coming for them with that sword, simple as that. I don't care who it is. But I get your point that JA and I should be fighting side by side as great warriors against the “Jesus is God Almighty” blasphemy instead of fighting against each other on an issue that surely won't decide whether or not anyone gets saved.
But remember that it has always been JA's choice whether to be respectful towards me or not. Pierre and I have also had our share of differences when it comes to Biblical interpretation, yet we still fight side by side on the other issues, admit our love for one another, and speak respectably towards each other.
The same goes for you, Irene, Kathi, Marty, Kerwin and many others here.
I will ALWAYS be just as nice to JA as he is to me. (99% of the time, much NICER.
)Thanks for your attempts at mediating. You do have a good heart, but the ball is in his court.
peace and love to you my friend,
mike
Mike, just so you know, I had a problem with email and passwords and signing in so had to re-reigister. (It's complicated). Thought I'd get a new avatar while I'm at it – everyone else has one?Quote But I get your point that JA and I should be fighting side by side as great warriors against the “Jesus is God Almighty” blasphemy instead of fighting against each other on an issue that surely won't decide whether or not anyone gets saved. That's right. Spirits and Bodies is an interesting discussion but it should be just that – a discussion.
Peace to you both.
Mike Boll,
You wrote to Istari:
Quote Do you know that Jesus was raised back to life in his flesh body for a specific reason? Do you know what that reason was? That would be to show that he had been bodilly resurected from the dead.
Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2011,22:09) Mike Boll, You wrote to Istari:
Quote Do you know that Jesus was raised back to life in his flesh body for a specific reason? Do you know what that reason was? That would be to show that he had been bodilly resurected from the dead.
KerwinNO,could he show that he was resurrected if he would be in the spirit ?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,10:24) Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2011,22:09) Mike Boll, You wrote to Istari:
Quote Do you know that Jesus was raised back to life in his flesh body for a specific reason? Do you know what that reason was? That would be to show that he had been bodilly resurected from the dead.
KerwinNO,could he show that he was resurrected if he would be in the spirit ?
Pierre
Pierre,He cannot as the spirit side of man does not perish with the body which is why Jesus taught us that man cannot kill it. Therefore the only part of a man availiable to be resurected is his flesh side.
Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2011,22:31) Quote (terraricca @ June 07 2011,10:24) Quote (kerwin @ June 07 2011,22:09) Mike Boll, You wrote to Istari:
Quote Do you know that Jesus was raised back to life in his flesh body for a specific reason? Do you know what that reason was? That would be to show that he had been bodilly resurected from the dead.
KerwinNO,could he show that he was resurrected if he would be in the spirit ?
Pierre
Pierre,He cannot as the spirit side of man does not perish with the body which is why Jesus taught us that man cannot kill it. Therefore the only part of a man availiable to be resurected is his flesh side.
Kerwinvery good
Pierre
JA,
Quote 'Flesh AND bone CANNOT ENTER/Inherit the Kingdom of Heaven'
'Flesh and Bone' is material matter.
Material matter is a BODYIt say's flesh and blood not flesh and bone. Maybe there's a difference.
What do we know?
The immortal man will be different from the man – that man is today.
The immortal man will have a new spiritual body – [POSSIBLY of flesh and bone but not of blood].
The immortal man will be able to transcend time and space and matter – as was evident in the newly ressurected Christ who appeared and dissapeared through locked rooms – and was also able – it seemed – to change his appearence.
Christ made it abundantly clear that he was not a spirit floating around – as people claim they see 'ghosts' – as he had flesh and bone – and he proved it to them.
It say's that those who overcome will also be like him.The first man came out of the earth and is Adam – the second came down from heaven and is Christ.
And we of the earth – are born again – and now have a heavenly Father – born not of blood nor the will of flesh and man – but of God.
What is mortal is swallowed up in victory – the corruptible puts on incorruption and the mortal puts on immortality.
And Paul say's, that we have a dwelling in heaven – a house that's not made by hands – in which we groan to recieve.The immortal body – the image and likeness of the son of God will – like Christ – have no limitations as we now have. Because Christ is given all authority in heaven and on earth and has access to both realms. So it would seem that those who are transformed into the image of Christ will also have access to both realms, being a part of the body of Christ – and a part of Christs work – in both heaven and earth – reigning with him – his immortal body of overcomers who will be just as he is.
JA, all of the above can be found in scripture. One part is just a possibility.
To All! Do you ever consider the ransom? Jesus body was taken away, because it did not see corruption…. But it had to stay dead, because of the ransom…..simple as that….Peace Irene
Kerwin,
I congratulate you for what you just said for it is perfectly true.I am sure that ALL RIGHT MINDED SCRIPTURE BELIEVERS think the same: The Physical Body resurrection was exactly for that reason – to show that the DEAD WILL RISE IN A FLESH BODY.
What purpose was the resurrection of Lazarus, and the Widows Son, and the Centurian's Daughter, etc? Did they not all still DIE later on in life?
Jesus' resurrection was permanent – making him PRE-EMINENT…the FIRST…Mike starts supposition about Jesus 'undressing out of his body' hidden in the Cloud!!
See: slowly, slowly, catchy fishy!
Mike is now believing that Jesus 'Put Off' his flesh body – nice one, Mike, keep coming – keep coming!And Mike, Jesus will 'Put On' the flesh body when he returns to earth – you will see him with the same holes in his hands and feet – forever!
See, Michael, in the GodFather film, wore his 'WOUNDS' after being thumped by the Police Captain, McCluskey! He could have got it fixed – but wore it as a symbol of his triumph over the beating he got! Tell me, did the writer of the GodFather not 'adopt' that from Scriptures – was the 'death of Michael' in being sent away not mirror Jesus being in Sheol – away from his beloved father? Was his return not to bring him his triumph over the enemies of the Corleone family – did not the eldest Son, Sonny, sin? Was not MICHAEL brought up in rank OVER HIS SYBLINGS? was MICHAEL not the MOST BELOVED OF HIS FATHER – did not the GodFather see MICHAEL as his ONLY SON after Sonny died – seeing Fredo as too weak in character to be 'His Son'?
A 'Son' therefore is the one, anyone, who HEARS what the Father says and Faithfully DOES what the Father does – and therefore is not peculiar to ANY SPIRIT or FLESH. Those ones who acceed to SONSHIP are vested with the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT!However, if the flesh is subject to Sin (And EVEN JESUS WAS – though he did not!!) then it is NOT SPIRITUAL. For man to become Spiritual in the body he must first be 'Reborn' (Where is that written?)
Jesus led the way to this 'Rebirth' and many more are to follow – 144,000 more…So, Mike, we agree at last – welcome to truth!
Jesus was raised in a flesh and bone body.
Jesus showed that flesh and bone body to over 500 followers plus the disciples.
Jesus PROVED that he was a FLESH AND BONE MAN – NOT A SPIRIT.
Jesus left the Physical realm by rising up in the air IN HIS PHYSICAL BODY and disappearing in a cloud.
The Angels told the witnesses to this disappearance that Jesus would return in 'LIKE MANNER'.
LIKE MANNER means He will be in the FLESH…
Jesus is NOW a SPIRIT Creature in Heaven.If Jesus was a 'Literal' expellation of God – God from God – then what he has achieved is a 'Downgrade' on what he WAS for ALL THINGS BELONG TO GOD – but Jesus only has what he has FROM THE FATHER -even if what he has is all of what the Fathef has (It is STILL BELONGING, AND OWNED BY, the FATHER!)
Rena,
Pray tell me which part of your post is any different to what I have said?
Because what I have said is FROM the Scriptures.
What you said is only a composite of what I have BEEN saying and STILL SAY!
Are you teaching me what I already know and have been saying for 288 pages to Mikeboll64, Irene and Terraricca?
If not, then despite the way to put it to me – thank you for saying what you said.
Mikeboll is doing his sneaky thing and sneaking changing his view teeny bit by teeny bit until he agrees with what I have been saying – then he will say 'Then WE have both been saying the same thing all the time – just from different viewpoints – hey brother!!!'
I say this: Truth is not mine – truth belongs to God.
If Mikeboll comes to know Truth then 'well done him'.
I have said before: the Prize is the same both for he who believed at the beginning as for the one who believes even right at the last.
But would it not be better if the obstinate were not so obstinate for so long – but that it test the resolve of the truth holder – even as the persecution of Job tested his resolve – even Shen one comes along and says 'Hey guys, how about COMPROMISING – that would be good – wouldn't it? As Job's wife said 'Curse God and die'!!Who can see the Spiritual War going on in Libya?
Colonel Gadaffi is resisting the Forces of Good trying to remove him from his seat of POWER?
Is it not one SPIRITUAL POWER of Good fighting against a Spiritual Power of Darkness – with REAL HUMANS in the Physical power seats.
Nah, JA, my post – I was just bored, and I was trying to have a disagreement with you. But it didn't work, because you agreed!
(In other words – I was attention seeking!)
I had read someone else say that flesh and BLOOD cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven but not nessesarily flesh and BONE. So I thought that maybe the body can change [as it say's it will] into some other form of flesh and bone – one that can be both in heaven and on earth.
But I don't know. I'll leave it up to you. I'll be quiet now. I prefer it like that.
Quote (kerwin @ June 06 2011,22:09) Mike Boll, You wrote to Istari:
Quote Do you know that Jesus was raised back to life in his flesh body for a specific reason? Do you know what that reason was? That would be to show that he had been bodilly resurected from the dead.
Correct, Kerwin.And my point is this: If Paul is counting on being a resident of heaven, and not of earth, yet is anxious for his “lowly” body to be transformed into a new glorious body like the one Jesus now has, what exact body of Jesus is he talking about?
Do you suppose that while anticipating his residence in heaven, he is at the same time hoping for his flesh body to be transformed into a different, more glorious flesh body that he can't even use in heaven?
mike
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