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Quote (terraricca @ May 16 2011,06:46) Mike there is a dead horse here ,where over here,no over there ho i see ,no it is not there ,of cause not it is over here can you not see it ,ok i can see it now ,hey you say it was here but it is not here ,common men don't be dam I sew it why can you not see it ?i guess i am to dam like you say;
Pierre
You guys are to funny…thanks for the laugh…. Oh, yes lets kick it…I got no steel boots…..Peace Irene
I guess I should have said “beat it”, for the sayings are “beating a dead horse” and “kicking a dead dog”. But you got the joke, right? 
mike
Mike,
Why do you always use that tired old line 'I have more …information/Proof … to show …' yet after 254 pages you have not shown anything other than childish fallacy of understanding of simple English aligned with Scriptural understanding?
It is with every reason that a Body restrains – and Spirit frees.
A constrained body has to exist in one place.
A spirit is unconstrained and is therefore everywhere in which it is constrained.
Don't salivate over my use of constrain in the line above for spirit – the BODY can constrain a spirit.
That is why a BODY contains a Spirit by which it is animated.Your view is that the Spirit Body is inside the Flesh Body – rubbish!!
There is not one single verse nor even allusion to SPIRIT BODY.
To achieve your claim you need to misunderstand the term 'Spiritual' – you need to chop up the word 'Spiritual' to cut of the 'ual' then make your new claim.There is no such thing as a 'Spirit Body' – which is what you are trying to make it seem that Paul is saying.
Your repetitive call for 'Answer my question' has become your signature cry because there is no one who can answer your nonsense questions.
It would be even more stupid for anyone to try to answer stupid questions!
Anyone can ask stupid questions and claim VICTORY when no one answers. Is that what you want – is that the only way you can achieve gratification? Pity you, my man!I think you've gone so far down the road that it is your own sheer embarrassment that stops you understanding…
When I ask you to show definition of Spirit you run away – why? Yet you keep going on that Spirit (Immaterial – formless) MUST have a body…
What material does an immaterial thing have?
What form does a formless thing have?What is the shape of your thought?
What material is your mind made up of?What is the Spirit made of?
How is your intelligence contained?Hmm… No answer, eh? Why Mike – why can't you answer?
Yet ask the same questions of flesh or any material matter and you can answer…Mike,
Are you serious about Job? Are you seriously saying you want PROOF that Job is allegorical?
Are you serious about Angels sitting at tables? Are you saying you want PROOF?Mike, thank you for acknowledging what I think of you – your hidden joke was loud and clear – now try not to do it again.
Thank you for acknowledging the wisdom in my posts by your lack of response. It's amazing that it has taken you so long to get here.
Now how wonderful do you feel? Just think how you could have been feeling like this a long tome ago.
A 'Free Spirit' – unfettered by the Body… The gas released from the constraining body of the bottle.
God's great creation was a Physical and Visible world.
Before the Physical and Visible world there was just the Immaterial and Invisible Spirit world of heaven.God created Jesus (And you say direct from himself) therefore he was like God – a Spirit.
Does God have a Body?
What does the verse 'A body you have prepared for me' mean if Jesus already had a body?
By the way… Whatever it is that Terraricca is saying means nothing to me as I know he knows nothing about what he's referring to.
He never says anything except snidishness and scripture verses that are more often than not unrelated to what was posted.
Ask yourself why he posts JUST to putdown but NEVER anything of actual value – what is the point.
As Gene says in another thread – 'Anyone can post scripture verses but they should at least relate to the thing being discussed'!!
Mike, Irene, Terraricca,
Do not sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32).
Tell me that the HOLY SPIRIT has a Body.
Quote (Istari @ May 16 2011,08:14) Mike, Irene, Terraricca, Do not sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32).
Tell me that the HOLY SPIRIT has a Body.
Who said that The Holy Spirit has a body? I didn't… i am talking about Angels…. those are the Heavenly creatures. The Holy Spirit of God is in Bodies. In us after we were Baptized. Sometimes I wonder if some members, the Holy Spirit have fallen on bad grounds though. The way the judge others….Peace IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ May 15 2011,02:20) Quote (shimmer @ May 14 2011,13:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2011,12:19) Hi Shimmer, So then you are devoid of sin? You personally have NO sin at all that separates you from God?
You miss my point……………perhaps on purpose. Let me try another example to drive my point home.
(Note: This is the time when certain people here claim, “I answered Mike's question, but he just doesn't like the answer I gave, so he keeps asking it!” So THOSE PEOPLE need to pay attention that this is a CLARIFYING question, based on the original one, but tweaked in an effort to demonstrate my point more effectively. In other words, IT IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT QUESTION FROM THE FIRST ONE.)
Shimmer, is Jesus God Almighty? If not, then what is it that separates the Being of God Almighty from the being of Jesus?
Your answer of “sin” won't work here, eh?
peace,
mike
Mike, Jesus said “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our abode with him.” and “Don't you know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which you have from God? You are not your own” and “If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, which you are” and “Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.”Sin is what seperates us from God.
In Isaiah it says “Your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.” But then “God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”. and “For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God”. and “Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit”.
Quote Shimmer, is Jesus God Almighty? If not, then what is it that separates the Being of God Almighty from the being of Jesus? Well I dont know what seperates Jesus from God Almighty. And Jesus said, “That they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us.” and “Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me.” and again, “He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.” and again, “In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.”
Shimmer……….Good Answer to Mikes post , but what good did it do Mike still insists you are saying “you don't Know”, that dear sister is the mentality we are all dealing with here. Even when a answer a clear and exact answer is given it is downplayed as if no answer was given. This is Mikes MO as has been seen many times in the past here. Please don't get discouraged their continual ignorance and personal insults of what is posted.
Terricca's own word would far better more accurately apply to himself , the “pearls before swines thing”, but again not one response from our so called monitor regarding those insulting remarks as he also does the same IMO> But let one of us do that and we are given tiles or kicked off or our posting rights removed and classified as a non believer, As in the Case of brother Adam.
Gene Gene, don't worry.You have a good spirit.
Im trying not to post so much, I am a woman, I should say less, though I still read, maybe leave the odd comment now and then.
Peace and love to you and yours Gene.
Quote (Istari @ May 16 2011,15:14) Mike, Irene, Terraricca, Do not sin against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32).
Tell me that the HOLY SPIRIT has a Body.
Istari JAI know you for a while ,but you still do not know what is the holy spirit ??
Pierre
Irene,
Nice slippery fish dodge…Holy Spirit is a the HOLY Spirit of God – note that the full point is that it is the SPIRIT OF GOD which is the ONLY HOLY entity.
It has become so easy to say 'Holy Spirit' that you forget that the HOLY part is an emphasis. It could just as easily be said simply 'The Spirit of God'.
The thread topic does not ask for subdivisions – it asks: Do SPIRITS have BODIES?
Spirit of Anything is the ACTIONING FORCE of that thing, the animating entity, the Intelligence, the BREATH OF LIFE (As in Genesis 2:7).
So there is NO DISTINCTION between one Spirit and another in it's form (it has no form) and composition (it has no composition) but only it's power and intelligence: it's ability to ACT (Force and Energy) and knowledge, wisdom and Righteousness.
A Spirit is Formless – A Spirit is Materialess – a Spirit is not CONTAINED but can become contained.
A Spirit is like a fluid that, without a container, a body, is formless, has no shape or form.
It is clear you guys just ignore the truth so you can carry on in your mindless thoughts.
That is not an insult – any insult is from yourself to yourself in your unbelief and purposeful desire to ignore truth.
There is not one single word of a form claiming that Spirits have bodies yet you derive it from lack of wisdom and hatred for me. This is how it started – just because you hated that I had my tiles removed by t8. From then you hardened your heart to speak against me and support Mikeboll.
Oh unwise ones – then even when Mikeboll ran away and left you in the wilderness you still remain in your hatredness. You laugh with him and Terraricca but, in truth, you know not what you are laughing at – else you would not laugh – for it is the foolishness of deceit that you laugh WITH.
Terra does not have a clue what be is saying. Has not for a long time – I don't even answer him now because he says nothing but list verses with no links to anything at hand – why? What is he saying? I have no idea!
What is his contribution to 'Spirits with Bodies'? Nothing but 'Istari, you're wrong' yet not one of THREE KINGS can show what you claim and just ignore reality that i post.
A spirit comes into the PHYSICAL WORLD from the NON-PHYSICAL WORLD.
Read every verse where an Angel appears to man.
Is it not said that they wear WHITE APPAREL and have a shimmering aspect of POWER and MIGHT about them?
Why? And do they physically interact with man – no, they deliver a message then leave – just disappear again.
In instances where they remain longer they acquire a more physical body that requires food to sustain that body …Irene, I don't think you know what you are debating here and you are just knee-jerking.
Mike has no idea what he is on about either – he just likes to say I'm wrong – nothing more.
So stop following him – it is not wise for you to do so!
Read his posts and see that he only responds to certain parts of my posts – the ones where he wants to play the ridiculer. Yes, Irene, he KNOWS I'm right so ignores those parts or posts silly misunderstandings back – Irene, while necklace these silly games he's actually soaking up what I'm saying ready to make a revelation in his own way saying EXACTLY what I've been saying but BACKWARDS so it seems he came by it by himself.
At present he like it when others ridicule me because it covers his real intent – he's using you and Terraricca – Irene, beware – you believe he is an Bodily Angel of light…. A torch – mind you don't get burned!!
Quote (Istari @ May 16 2011,16:49) Irene, You are saying that the Spirit of God has no body – is that right?
astariyou still do not know what the holy spirit is
if you do why you ask those questions
Pierre
Quote (Istari @ May 15 2011,14:34)
A spirit is unconstrained and is therefore everywhere in which it is constrained.
Okay, I'll try not to salivate, but you ARE speaking truth here. When a spirit is NOT in a body, what constains it?In other words, what is it that constrains the being of Gabriel from flowing within and being a part of God Himself? What “constraint” keeps those TWO from becoming ONE?
Quote (Istari @ May 15 2011,14:34)
Your repetitive call for 'Answer my question' has become your signature cry because there is no one who can answer your nonsense questions.It would be even more stupid for anyone to try to answer stupid questions!
Anyone can ask stupid questions and claim VICTORY when no one answers. Is that what you want – is that the only way you can achieve gratification? Pity you, my man!
Whoa there horsey! I'm picturing you lying belly down on the floor kicking your legs and flailing your arms right now.Many people answer my questions here. I also answer theirs. It's called “having a discussion”. Just because my questions are too hard for you is no reason to call them “stupid questions”. The one I've been asking you from the beginning is a very logical and straightforward question. Shimmer finally answered it, why can't you?
Istari, we both KNOW that Jesus and his God are TWO SEPARATE BEINGS. What is it that keeps them “constrained” as TWO SEPARATE BEINGS so that they don't “meld” into ONE SINGLE BEING?
I think it is a fair and logical point. I also have known for months that your answer is the exact same as Shimmer's answer – “I DON'T KNOW”. Only she admitted it, and you won't. The problem is that you both know there is SOMETHING that keeps them as two separate beings instead of one combined being. I choose to call that “constraining something” bodies. You don't. So since you don't want to call it “bodies”, then tell me what it is that you DO want to call it. For we all know it has to be something.
Quote (Istari @ May 15 2011,14:34)
When I ask you to show definition of Spirit you run away – why?
I've answered this at least three times in this very thread. Would you like to see it yet again?2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel From Here
See? I don't deny the definition of spirit that you and Gene keep relying on. It's just that I know there are many other definitions also. And “SPIRIT BEING” is one of them.
P.S. Pierre's post wasn't a slam to you. Only a commentary on how we're beating a dead horse here. In other words, it seems that we are deadlocked, yet keep going on with the discussion anyway.
mike
Judaic thought on this I quote the following,
Form and Matter
Everything which the Holy One, blessed-be-He, created in His universe comes into one of three categories:
Creations made up of a combination of form (TzuRA) and matter (ChoMeR). These are constantly coming into being and ceasing to exist:
for example, the bodies of man and animals, plants and metals.Creations made up of a combination of form and matter that do not change from body to body or from form to form in the same way as those in the first category.
The form of the creations falling into this second category is permanently fixed in their matter, and they do not change as the others do.
Examples are the spheres and the stars and planets that revolve in them.
The matter of which they are constituted differs from other kinds of matter and their forms from other forms.Creations that consist of form but no matter, for example the MaLaChiM, angels.
[“Angels” is the usual English translation of MaLaCh, but the Hebrew root, which is related to the word MeLaChaH, meaning “work” or the application of energy,
indicates the spiritual “force” that is responsible for some process or other phenomenon in the world.]
The creations in this category do not possess bodies or corporeal being, but rather are forms that are separate from one another…What is meant by the prophet's statements that they saw an angel of fire, or with wings? All these are prophetic visions and parables….
Since the angels do not have bodies,
what separates the form of the various angels from one another is that each one is below the level of the other and exists by virtue of its influence.Everything exists through the power of the Holy One, blessed-be-He, and His goodness.
By saying one angelic force is below another, we are not talking about physical space and height the way we do when we say one person is sitting higher up than another.
Rather, we are talking about their relative spiritual level, just as one might say of two sages, one of whom is greater than the other, “One is on a higher level than the other”.
Similarly that which is the cause of something else is said to be “above” it….All of these spiritual forms (TzuRoT, the “angels”) are alive. They know the Creator and have the most enormous consciousness of God, each according to its level,
though not in proportion to God's true greatness.Taken from here;
Quote (Istari @ May 16 2011,09:47) Irene,
Nice slippery fish dodge…Holy Spirit is a the HOLY Spirit of God – note that the full point is that it is the SPIRIT OF GOD which is the ONLY HOLY entity.
It has become so easy to say 'Holy Spirit' that you forget that the HOLY part is an emphasis. It could just as easily be said simply 'The Spirit of God'.
The thread topic does not ask for subdivisions – it asks: Do SPIRITS have BODIES?
Spirit of Anything is the ACTIONING FORCE of that thing, the animating entity, the Intelligence, the BREATH OF LIFE (As in Genesis 2:7).
So there is NO DISTINCTION between one Spirit and another in it's form (it has no form) and composition (it has no composition) but only it's power and intelligence: it's ability to ACT (Force and Energy) and knowledge, wisdom and Righteousness.
A Spirit is Formless – A Spirit is Materialess – a Spirit is not CONTAINED but can become contained.
A Spirit is like a fluid that, without a container, a body, is formless, has no shape or form.
It is clear you guys just ignore the truth so you can carry on in your mindless thoughts.
That is not an insult – any insult is from yourself to yourself in your unbelief and purposeful desire to ignore truth.
There is not one single word of a form claiming that Spirits have bodies yet you derive it from lack of wisdom and hatred for me. This is how it started – just because you hated that I had my tiles removed by t8. From then you hardened your heart to speak against me and support Mikeboll.
Oh unwise ones – then even when Mikeboll ran away and left you in the wilderness you still remain in your hatredness. You laugh with him and Terraricca but, in truth, you know not what you are laughing at – else you would not laugh – for it is the foolishness of deceit that you laugh WITH.
Terra does not have a clue what be is saying. Has not for a long time – I don't even answer him now because he says nothing but list verses with no links to anything at hand – why? What is he saying? I have no idea!
What is his contribution to 'Spirits with Bodies'? Nothing but 'Istari, you're wrong' yet not one of THREE KINGS can show what you claim and just ignore reality that i post.
A spirit comes into the PHYSICAL WORLD from the NON-PHYSICAL WORLD.
Read every verse where an Angel appears to man.
Is it not said that they wear WHITE APPAREL and have a shimmering aspect of POWER and MIGHT about them?
Why? And do they physically interact with man – no, they deliver a message then leave – just disappear again.
In instances where they remain longer they acquire a more physical body that requires food to sustain that body …Irene, I don't think you know what you are debating here and you are just knee-jerking.
Mike has no idea what he is on about either – he just likes to say I'm wrong – nothing more.
So stop following him – it is not wise for you to do so!
Read his posts and see that he only responds to certain parts of my posts – the ones where he wants to play the ridiculer. Yes, Irene, he KNOWS I'm right so ignores those parts or posts silly misunderstandings back – Irene, while necklace these silly games he's actually soaking up what I'm saying ready to make a revelation in his own way saying EXACTLY what I've been saying but BACKWARDS so it seems he came by it by himself.
At present he like it when others ridicule me because it covers his real intent – he's using you and Terraricca – Irene, beware – you believe he is an Bodily Angel of light…. A torch – mind you don't get burned!!
That post you just made is ridiculous, to say the least. I hate no one here on Heaven Net. In spite of some like you dish out unnecessary words.
God gave bodies to whomever He pleased PERIOD, end of story….You take it like you want….IreneMore (anom) Jewish thought:
Quote;
The story about Moses being in the cleft of the rock and being able to see God's back as he went by is a beautiful, intensely moving, metaphor – not something literal.
It's always been quite clear in Judaism that God is totally abstract, ineffable. No body!All this is image and metaphor, not literal….Definitely no MATERIAL attributes!
G-d does not have any physical attributes. What Moses saw in that passage is not known, but it was not physical.
The three angels that appeared to Abraham were angels.
The Jewish concept of angels is not cherubs with wings. They are spiritual beings that can assume human form if G-d desires.Unquote.
Quote (shimmer @ May 15 2011,19:41) The creations in this category do not possess bodies or corporeal being, but rather are forms that are separate from one another…
Hi Shimmer,I can live with that. An antonym of “corporeal” is “spiritual”. Many of us have been saying this whole time that angels have spiritual bodies, not flesh ones.
But seriously, anyone of us could go to anyone's homepage and post anyone's opinion on any subject at all. The link you gave is not a scholarly resource, but someone who has published his own opinions on things.
There is really no place for that kind of unsubstantial “evidence” in a serious debate, IMO.
peace,
mikeMike, Serious debate?
Well why isnt this in debates then?Your missing the point of the word FORM which followed after what I quoted.
I'll requote the rest of it in context:
Since the angels do not have bodies, what separates the form of the various angels from one another is that each one is below the level of the other and exists by virtue of its influence.
Everything exists through the power of the Holy One, blessed-be-He, and His goodness.
By saying one angelic force is below another, we are not talking about physical space and height the way we do when we say one person is sitting higher up than another.
Rather, we are talking about their relative spiritual level, just as one might say of two sages, one of whom is greater than the other, “One is on a higher level than the other”.
Similarly that which is the cause of something else is said to be “above” it….It is not just ANY SOURCE, this is the belief of Judaism, and not only Juduism but the earliest Christian thought, right up untill now.
Istaris beliefs line up with their views, which is the majority of the world, including all three major religieons (Judaism, Christianity and Islam).Judaism believes that there is one God, indivisible, eternal, and incorporeal (without shape or form).
God being incorporeal is the third principle of Judaism, example here:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scriptu….al.html
Christianity has always believed this.
Just a few examples:Irenaeus [189AD]
“Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions.
He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone.
He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God” (Against Heresies 2:13:3 [A.D. 189]).St Clement of Alexandria [200AD]
“What is God? ‘God,’ as the Lord says, ‘is a spirit.’
Now spirit is properly substance, incorporeal, and uncircumscribed. And that is incorporeal which does not consist of a body, or whose existence is not according to breadth, length, and depth.
And that is uncircumscribed which has no place, which is wholly in all, and in each entire, and the same in itself” (ibid.).“No one can rightly express him wholly. For on account of his greatness he is ranked as the All, and is the Father of the universe.
Nor are any parts to be predicated of him.
For the One is indivisible; wherefore also it is infinite, not considered with reference to inscrutability, but with reference to its being without dimensions, and not having a limit. And therefore it is without form” (Miscellanies 5:12 [A.D. 208]).Hilary of Poitiers
“First it must be remembered that God is incorporeal. He does not consist of certain parts and distinct members, making up one body. For we read in the gospel that God is a spirit: invisible, therefore, and an eternal nature, immeasurable and self-sufficient.
It is also written that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. For of these the members of a body consist, and of these the substance of God has no need.
God, however, who is everywhere and in all things, is all-hearing, all-seeing, all-doing, and all-assisting” (Commentary on the Psalms 129[130]:3 [A.D. 365]).Ambrose of Milan
“God is of a simple nature, not conjoined nor composite. Nothing can be added to him. He has in his nature only what is divine, filling up everything, never himself confused with anything, penetrating everything, never himself being penetrated, everywhere complete, and present at the same time in heaven, on earth, and in the farthest reaches of the sea, incomprehensible to the sight” (The Faith 1:16:106 [A.D. 379]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/God_Has_No_Body.asp
“If one believes that God is physical, inevitably he will feel capable of escaping Him.”
Rabbi Mordechai BlumenfeldHi Folks,
OK. Since I have never been to heaven and talked to angels/spirits or God about these things I really don't know the “God's Truth” about them. I can only theorize(guess). Here is an answer as to why spirits don't just merge into one another that is based on “no bodies whatsoever”. They have “identities”. Therefore they can differentiate between themselves because they each have an individual identity.
Another theory. Perhaps in the spiritual realm as in the physical realm(as above, so below), there are various densities and compositions to spiritual energy and this is how they do not merge into one another and retain their induviduality. In this theory they could have a type of non-physical body simply because they are composed of spiritual energy that is unique to each individual spirit.
Yes it is only theory. At least it is logical and reasonable. I make no claim to “God's Truth” on this issue. I am only trying to understand it with the intellectual reasoning abilities that God gave me.
Just some thoughts on the issue OK?With Love and Respect,
Wispring
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