Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Seeking,

For one, 1st Corin ;15:52;
“in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.”

April 24, 2011 at 4:58 am#244252

Blocked

Hey Wm,

I have a great idea. Instead of you making many posts deriding me for my mistaken assumptions of what you posted, why don't you tell me what you WERE saying?

Don't you think that would be a better way of clearing up any misunderstandings than the way you are doing it?

Making posts to tell me I've twice assumed the wrong thing doesn't do one thing to tell me “the RIGHT thing”, does it?

What you originally said was that the holes in Jesus' body were preserved as a reminder. And from that, I understood you to be saying that the body Jesus will spend eternity in will forever have holes in it…………..as a reminder.

If you were NOT saying that, then just simply SAY you were NOT saying that…………………and proceed to explain what you really WERE saying. Would that be so hard? Or is it better to play this cat and mouse game in an effort to show that I've “wronged” you in some way?

mike

April 24, 2011 at 5:08 am#244253

Blocked

Quote (karmarie @ April 23 2011,22:52)

Hi Seeking and Mike.
I hardly think Jesus would still be in the body he showed the Disciples.
When he ascended into heaven, I would say (guess..and according to the scriptures) he was changed.

Kar,

That's EXACTLY how I understand it also. As for the scriptures Wm is asking for:

Luke 24:39 shows that Jesus wasn't raised from the dead in his new spiritual body, for he says he's not a spirit at this time.

John 20:27 implies Jesus was raised in the same body he died in, for it still had the scars and holes.

1 Cor 15:45 says Jesus became a spirit.

1 Cor 15:50 says that flesh, of which Jesus was made when he said the words of Luke 24:39, cannot enter heaven, where Jesus is now.

Galatians 1:1 and 1:11 show that Jesus is no longer a human being.

If you put all the pieces together, it seems that Jesus was raised from the dead in a flesh body that spirits don't have and that can't enter heaven. Yet now he is in heaven and is a spirit – so somewhere along the line, he had to have traded in that flesh body of Luke 24:39 for the new glorious body of Phil 3:21.

mike

April 24, 2011 at 5:16 am#244254

Participant

Mike,

I agree, Jesus would now be changed, but still be in some type of Body.

April 24, 2011 at 5:33 am#244255

seekingtruth

Participant

To those who do not believe Jesus was resurrected and changed,
How did Jesus appear to the disciples in a locked room if His body was not already transformed?

“even as they were looking [at Him], He was caught up, and a cloud received and carried Him away out of their sight.” If He was transformed then how were they seeing Him and why did He need to be caught up?

April 24, 2011 at 5:51 am#244256

Participant

Seeking,

It seems there were two changes, the first being the ressurection from the dead, the second when he ascending up.
And it says that likewise we will be changed, and that we will meet Jesus in the air.

When people say that Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives, I dont see how they say that because there is no mention of this happening, apart from I think in Revelations, or the Old Testement.

I dont see how people take the book of Revelations literally in places and symbolically in other places.
I prefer to stick with the words of Jesus, and the other books, if I dont know what it means.

Its almost as if there are two stories being told, one earthly and one heavenly. Maybe thats the thing.
As you say Istari, that some are destined for heaven and some to be, in Paradise Earth.

“…the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout…
and the dead in Christ shall rise first….”

“Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them [the dead in Christ]
IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord
IN THE AIR: and so shall we:

April 24, 2011 at 6:02 am#244257

Baker

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 24 2011,16:33)

To those who do not believe Jesus was resurrected and changed,
How did Jesus appear to the disciples in a locked room if His body was not already transformed?

Hi Seeking! I have asked that same question!!! Scripture in

1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

It does not say anywhere that Jesus first was in the same body He died with, and then was changed into a Spirit Being. Also Jesus can manifest Himself into the Human he was in order to show all. They were frightened and thought they seen a Ghost. He appeared through closed Doors and disappeared again. Why would Scripture have to say this, if He was in Human form, and could just walk through the open door. But that is not what it says….

Peace and Love Irene

April 24, 2011 at 7:55 am#244260

Participant

Mike and Seeking,

Further,
I believe this has something to do with going from earth to Heaven.

When your dead, your dead. So when your risen from the dead, you are renewed. Then when you are taken up to heaven, which is a whole lot different to down here (Astronauts have to change dont they, they need space suits)…then there is another change.

And when you are in heaven, wherever that may be, it would be even different.

April 24, 2011 at 8:00 am#244261

Participant

Irene,
But if Jesus, a spirit being, came from heaven, and then returned to heaven as a spirit, as some say, without a body, well then that was no different than before. Why then is he the first of many? The first of what?

April 24, 2011 at 10:41 am#244270

Participant

1st John 3:2

Behold, how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God.
For this cause the world doesn't know us, because it didn't know him.
Beloved, now we are children of God,

and it is not yet revealed what we will be.
But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.

April 24, 2011 at 10:44 am#244271

Participant

Mike,
I see you can draw a timeline after all…

However, why did you stop short of the part that says, 'You will see him return in like manner to how he left'

Mike, what 'like manner' will that be?

If he was Man in flesh when he left – then his return will be as Man in Flesh…

Before Jesus came as Man, was he not Spirit in Heaven?
I think you are still stuck on 'Spirit has a body' therefore you hide from such verses as 'A body you have prepared for me'.
Why would God 'prepare a body' for Jesus to be born in of he were already 'Spirit in Body' in heaven?

Silly examples but, if you were entering a Nudist colony and someone said, 'Sorry, clothes are not allowed in here', would you suppose that a dressing gown would be ok?
Flesh and Bone/Blood cannot enter the Spiritual realm for there is no capacity for a fixed body of elements. Flesh – is a fixed body of elements that give a shape.

Jesus did not enter heaven in a body – changed or not. Just like the nudist camp – he 'put off' the cloak of his body and entered in Spirit only.

Mike, what did your definition from the dictionary say concerning Spirit? Did it not say: Spirit is that which animates a body?
So, Mike, the Spirit and the body are two separable things. A spirit can ENTER a body – and a Spirit can LEAVE a body…

And … What is wrong about Jesus having a glorified body with Holes in it?
It is a TESTAMENT to his great Sacrifice – it is not a DEFECT!!

April 24, 2011 at 11:18 am#244272

Baker

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ April 24 2011,19:00)

karmarie! Jesus did return as a Spirit Beng like He was before

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The Scriptures you quoted has nothing to do with how Jesus is, just that some will see Jesus like He is. And some will be like Him, a Spirit Being…..
And also not all will be Spirit Beings. Only the chosen ones will be. The meek will inherit the earth. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus is also the firstborn from the death

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

That is also why I believe the kingdom of God is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of Almighty God right now. And it is twofold, meaning the Kingdom is i our Hearts.

Jesus will come back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Scriptures do not contradict themselves. Did you even read the Scriptures in 1 Corinth. 15…..That whole chapter talks about the resurrection….
Peace and Love Irene

April 24, 2011 at 12:30 pm#244273

Participant

Irene,

I'm beginning to like your tenor!

I'm trying to get Mike to plot out a timeline that shows each verse statement in it's proper order which will help him to see things in it's truthfulness.

It seem though that he has a fear of doing so and thereby find truth – or he has done so privately and found his ideas wanting and ignored it trying to still forcefit his views like a child putting the wrong pieces in place on a figure of eight train track: there are only so many pieces and they can only fit in so many ways… Yes, some pieces can fit in other places – of equivalence – but overall the shape must be the final target.

For instance, Jesus was indeed 'Born' at some point in time but that 'piece' is a slightly different 'Piece' to the 'Born' that Scriptures talks of : this is the Rebirth 'Born'.
Scriptures does not emphasise on THE WHAT WAS of Jesus, but the WHAT IS.
Mike deliberately ignores the Scriptures that he doesn't like and removes the parts of the verse that doesn't suit him – like SHAVING the wrongfitting piece to make it fit his idea of where it should go on the figure of eight track!!

April 24, 2011 at 12:49 pm#244275

Participant

Irene,

1st John 3:2

And it is not yet revealed what we will be.
But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.

So, it is not yet revealed what we will be. Which is furthered by;

1 Corin 2:9

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If Jesus was in Heaven, pre-existant, as a spirit, then he has changed, and is longer that. He has a heavenly body, but he didnt have that before. Everything before then was invisible and spirit, including God the Father. (though Angels/Messengers, can change, and appear to man, as it says)

But He (Jesus) is the firstborn of the dead,

This is just where my thought is today. Jay (Istari) is probably more right than me.

April 24, 2011 at 1:03 pm#244278

Participant

To all,

Please please please be mindful of using “We” as in the Scriptures.

That “We” are the Saints, Apostles, Elders, the 144,000 of the ELECT.

Never never never Count yourself as one such – in fact, it is more of a certainty that we ( the you and I 'we') will only aspire to life in Paradise earth – and that is a glory in itself worthy of Honor and praise for both Jesus and God, and Worship of God!

April 24, 2011 at 1:39 pm#244280

Participant

And as for 'Eyes have not seen nor ears have not heard':

Since man in flesh cannot imagine what his Spirit will experience. Things that the earthbound flesh bodied one cannot experience.

All flesh is limiting… All flesh is contained elements.

Spirit is unlimited… It I'd unrestrained – it goes where it will – such that it can be said to be EVERYWHERE… it has no bounds being itself boundless.

To traverse the universe, to walk through fire and tornado, to not be encumbered by bodily needs of food, drink, sleep, clothes, heat, cold, weariness, etc., to be like the wind and blow where you will, to come into the physical world and sample it's limiting pleasures (for God did not create FLESH for no reason), and to leave the physical world back to the limitless spirit realm.

April 24, 2011 at 3:34 pm#244286

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 23 2011,23:33)

To those who do not believe Jesus was resurrected and changed,
How did Jesus appear to the disciples in a locked room if His body was not already transformed?

Numbers 22:28
Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”
Wm, does this mean Balaam's donkey was really a spirit maquerading as a donkey? Or does it mean that God can allow even a donkey to talk if He chooses to?

Acts 8:39-40
39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
Wm, does this mean that Philip was a spirit being masquerading as a human being? Or does it mean that God is able to make a human being disappear from one place and appear in another if He chooses to?

My point is that if God can make Philip just “appear” in Azotus, then why can't He make Jesus' flesh body appear within a locked room?

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 23 2011,23:33)

If He was transformed then how were they seeing Him and why did He need to be caught up?

Wm, I submit that they saw him ascend in the body he died in, and at some point after he was hidden from their view by the clouds, his body was transformed to a body suitable for existence in heaven. His “new glorious body” without scars and holes I would presume.

mike

April 24, 2011 at 4:06 pm#244289